Is the Sabbath a 'test of loyalty'?

fated · Mar 18, 2008

honorthesabbath said:
HI fated--I have been reading your posts and those of others concerning this issue. We must always be careful not to add to the Word of God. Jesus warned that....

Mt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mr 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mr 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Mr 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mr 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I think you get where I'm going with this. Jesus tried to show the Jews that the burdens placed upon them, NOT BY THE WORD OF GOD, but by other humans, was making void the commandments of God.

You said..

I believe that the commandment is just as the Father wanted it stated. As for the particulars of the observance of the Sabbath---this is where the living Holy Spirit of God comes in. God's word says the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all righteousness. IOW-it is the Spirit of God that will impress upon your mind HOW to keep the Sabbath.

I have to be honest with you fated, not tearing TP on the Sabbath is one of those man-made rules that Jesus condemned. We must remember that LOVE FOR GOD and LOVE FOR EACH OTHER is what the 10c is all about. I don't think avoiding tearing the TP is an offense to God or man! As a matter of fact--I'm sure NOT using it on the Sabbath would be an offense--especially to those close by!

I have to be honest too, I think that one could follow those "memorials" in remembrance of the good things God has done. I don't think He condemned the rules, but, obviously, following rules should be an act of love for God, not an act of self edification.

Is following the rules evil or contrary to God's Word?

I'll start with the first verse. Matthew 15:3
1 1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? 2 They do not wash (their) hands when they eat a meal." 3 He said to them in reply, "And why do you break the commandment of God 3 for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.' 5 4 But you say, 'Whoever says to father or mother, "Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God," 6 need not honor his father.' You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

This is about honoring mother and father, which may include traditions. I don't think it indicts the laws of the Jews, but only the way they were being used by those particular ones indicted. It could be me or you also indicted, but that is hardly explicit.

RND · Mar 19, 2008

Every action with your heart directed toward God is effectual to some extent for ones salvation, so I would take the position that the average Jew, then as now, who follows the law with their heart toward God, does good work.

I think this is an interesting thought to explore, in that, as an example, some people do violence to others and think they are doing a great work in God. Their heart, in their mind, is directed toward God but their actions seem contradict our notion of what is acceptable to God.

honorthesabbath · Mar 19, 2008

RND said:
I think this is an interesting thought to explore, in that, as an example, some people do violence to others and think they are doing a great work in God. Their heart, in their mind, is directed toward God but their actions seem contradict our notion of what is acceptable to God.

Excellent point RND--as usual! Jesus told us this too....

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

This is why I believe it is so important that we not only know the character of God thru the study of His word, but also what He requires of thru the study of His word. This way we can avoid the man-made pitfalls of 'religion'.

fated · Mar 19, 2008

I don't think one can really have their heart directed toward God and murder someone. Be in the military or defend one's family, yes, murder, no, clearly the conscience would have to be clouded by ignorance or hate for someone to believe that murder was somehow God's will.

honorthesabbath · Mar 19, 2008

fated said:
I have to be honest too, I think that one could follow those "memorials" in remembrance of the good things God has done. I don't think He condemned the rules, but, obviously, following rules should be an act of love for God, not an act of self edification.

Click to expand...

I agree, unless of course they don't violate the law of love.

Is following the rules evil or contrary to God's Word?

Click to expand...

Yes, obviously, Jesus condemned this practice of 'corban'.

Corban was a sacrifice in Charity given to the temple in hopes that someone would be helped. It was a casting of your daily bread upon the water in Love and Charity so that it would in Hope and Faith come back to you. It exercised the spirit of God in us.
But that is not what it had become in that time or this. It had become an accounted regular donation given to the temple so that when your parents were elderly or infirm the temple would care for them. It was a lack of Charity and Honor to your parents and their needs and your responsibility. Men thought it was the responsibility of their government to take care of their family and thought they were free of that responsibility.
Those who practiced this were defying the teachings of Moses and the system of God and obviously also turning their back on the Way presented by Jesus. Any System that says we will care for your parents and you are free from that obligation is laying aside the commandment of God and in doing so they should know Full well they reject the commandment of God.
One should care for their parents not just because God says so and because your parents are in need but also because it will bless you and you shall live long upon the family land.

I'll start with the first verse. Matthew 15:3
1 1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? 2 They do not wash (their) hands when they eat a meal." 3 He said to them in reply, "And why do you break the commandment of God 3 for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.' 5 4 But you say, 'Whoever says to father or mother, "Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God," 6 need not honor his father.' You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

This is about honoring mother and father, which may include traditions. I don't think it indicts the laws of the Jews, but only the way they were being used by those particular ones indicted. It could be me or you also indicted, but that is hardly explicit.

Click to expand...

In fact it was the twisting of a well intended offering to get out of caring for the parents PERSONALLY that Jesus was condemning. This is why we must have the Holy Spirit to lead and guise us in our attempts to 'please' Him. Because the human carnal heart is debased.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

honorthesabbath · Mar 19, 2008

fated said:
I don't think one can really have their heart directed toward God and murder someone. Be in the military or defend one's family, yes, murder, no, clearly the conscience would have to be clouded by ignorance or hate for someone to believe that murder was somehow God's will.

I agree. I wish our Muslim friends understood this concept. Not to say all Muslims are violent, but their history is one of upheaval for sure.

fated · Mar 19, 2008

It looks like a pretty normal potluck to me. I think there may be more interpretation problems with the Quran in radical Islamic theology right now. These may well have been more common in Christian history as well. Though, I would argue, the magnitude was likely different.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/iioc/398623893/

fated · Mar 19, 2008

No community want to be judged by the failure of its members. Normally Muslims aren't bloodthirsty killers. Typical Quran interpretation should regard the most sophisticated theology in the book first and then use that to understand that which proceeds it, similarly to the way Christians and Jews use their book. Of course, there do seem to be the occasional Bible or Torah wielder that goes off using Leviticus or something to make... rash judgments on people.

honorthesabbath · Mar 19, 2008

fated said:
No community want to be judged by the failure of its members. Normally Muslims aren't bloodthirsty killers. Typical Quran interpretation should regard the most sophisticated theology in the book first and then use that to understand that which proceeds it, similarly to the way Christians and Jews use their book. Of course, there do seem to be the occasional Bible or Torah wielder that goes off using Leviticus or something to make... rash judgments on people.

I agree and I must confess I have not read the Quran in it's entirety, just excerpts. But unfortunately, a religion and other groups ARE judged by the bad apples.

thecountrydoc · Mar 19, 2008

Hi fated,

Your response to my previous post:

I don't see what this has to do with SDA beliefs, so maybe its not for here:

But, I would take the position that, for most of the Jews (including some Saducees and Pharisees), the laws regarding keeping the Sabbath were a loving response to God, as they are today, and also a unifying aspect of Jewish life, as they continue to be today. Every action with your heart directed toward God is effectual to some extent for ones salvation, so I would take the position that the average Jew, then as now, who follows the law with their heart toward God, does good work. "Effecting salvation" is done, first and foremost, by baptism, right?

In short, all I'm saying is that following the old laws is not necessarily "ineffectual" and could be quite "effectual" depending on ones spiritual disposition.

Right?

No fated, that is not right. Let's start with your first statement that you don't see "what this has to do with SDA beliefs."

For starters; SDAs are accused of keeping the Sabbath because of the legal requirments of the law. If indeed that was the motivation for SDAs keeping the Sabbath the accusation of being legalistic would be fair. We do not observe the Sabbath out of leagal requirment but out of love for our Creator and the plan of salvation only.

Second; The Jews of Christ time were clearly shown to keep the Sabbath and all other laws out of legal requirement and self-serving interest rather that from love for their Creator. A perfect example of this is found in Luke 18:10-14;

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himjself, God, I thank thee, that I'm not as othyer men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I posess. And the publican, standing afar of, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be mjerciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exaulteth himeself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exaulted.

What we do is of no value without the correct motivation.

Today the vast majority of Judaism still keeps the Sabbath because of what they feel is legal requirment not from love in their heart for God and why the Sabbath was created for man. It is true that the observance of the Sabbath is a "unifying aspect of Jewish life" both then and now. However that aspect of Jewish life does not serve to accept the sacrafice that their Creator has made for them and the plan of salvation which is the intent of the of the law. God is not interested in earthly unity for our own selfish reasons or any action that we can take. The unity He wants for us is the unity of believers as followers of Him.

Third; "Ineffectual" or "effectual" depending one's spiritual disposition? Our "spiritual dispotion" has no affect on our salvation. We can not work our way into heaven regardless of our own "spiritual disposition." We are saved by God's "disposition" toward us. Not the other way around. To use an old saying; The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I pray that this will be of help in understang the complete context of my previous post.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

fated · Mar 19, 2008

thecountrydoc said:
Hi fated,

Your response to my previous post:No fated, that is not right. Let's start with your first statement that you don't see "what this has to do with SDA beliefs."

For starters; SDAs are accused of keeping the Sabbath because of the legal requirments of the law. If indeed that was the motivation for SDAs keeping the Sabbath the accusation of being legalistic would be fair. We do not observe the Sabbath out of leagal requirment but out of love for our Creator and the plan of salvation only.

Second; The Jews of Christ time were clearly shown to keep the Sabbath and all other laws out of legal requirement and self-serving interest rather that from love for their Creator. A perfect example of this is found in Luke 18:10-14; What we do is of no value without the correct motivation.

Today the vast majority of Judaism still keeps the Sabbath because of what they feel is legal requirment not from love in their heart for God and why the Sabbath was created for man. It is true that the observance of the Sabbath is a "unifying aspect of Jewish life" both then and now. However that aspect of Jewish life does not serve to accept the sacrafice that their Creator has made for them and the plan of salvation which is the intent of the of the law. God is not interested in earthly unity for our own selfish reasons or any action that we can take. The unity He wants for us is the unity of believers as followers of Him.

Third; "Ineffectual" or "effectual" depending one's spiritual disposition? Our "spiritual dispotion" has no affect on our salvation. We can not work our way into heaven regardless of our own "spiritual disposition." We are saved by God's "disposition" toward us. Not the other way around. To use an old saying; The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I pray that this will be of help in understang the complete context of my previous post.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

I don't understand why there is this insistence that Jews don't love God. Or that all SDAs keep the Sabbath because they love God. I'm rather insulted by these unfounded generalist claims/assertions.

RND · Mar 19, 2008

fated said:
I don't think one can really have their heart directed toward God and murder someone.

Others may disagree with you and your position. How would you convince them otherwise?

Be in the military or defend one's family, yes, murder, no, clearly the conscience would have to be clouded by ignorance or hate for someone to believe that murder was somehow God's will.

Well while that may seem obvious, the statement you made that I quoted suggests that it is the heart that is directed toward God does the "will" of God. Clearly, this can't be the case.

Otherwise 14th century burnings at the stake of heretics or 17th century burning of witches could be justified. The people that did these things certainly "felt" they were doing the "will" of God.

How can we adequately determine that our will is not His at times and that our "heart" is a poor place to start in directing our eyes towards Him?

TrustAndObey · Mar 19, 2008

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

The commandment is very simple and Jesus gave us a great example of "how" to obey God's commandment. I don't follow Jewish traditions on the Sabbath and I am not commanded to.

fated · Mar 19, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

The commandment is very simple and Jesus gave us a great example of "how" to obey God's commandment. I don't follow Jewish traditions on the Sabbath and I am not commanded to.

I don't have any problem with that. Remember, though, that Jesus was a practicing Jew.

fated · Mar 19, 2008

RND said:
Others may disagree with you and your position. How would you convince them otherwise?

Well while that may seem obvious, the statement you made that I quoted suggests that it is the heart that is directed toward God does the "will" of God. Clearly, this can't be the case.

Otherwise 14th century burnings at the stake of heretics or 17th century burning of witches could be justified. The people that did these things certainly "felt" they were doing the "will" of God.

How can we adequately determine that our will is not His at times and that our "heart" is a poor place to start in directing our eyes towards Him?

People can be sincerely wrong in believing they are following God with their heart. They must also do so with their mind and body.

TrustAndObey · Mar 19, 2008

fated said:
I don't have any problem with that. Remember, though, that Jesus was a practicing Jew.

You bring up a very good point my friend.

The believers of Christ, the ones that accept Him as their Lord and Savior, are indeed what we refer to as Christian today, right?

Mary, His mother, acceptd Him as the promised Messiah (how could she NOT really?) and followed Him.

Would you say that she was a Jew until she died or that she became a Christian?

If you don't feel she was a Christian, could you give us a brief definition of what you think a Christian is?

fated · Mar 19, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
You bring up a very good point my friend.

The believers of Christ, the ones that accept Him as their Lord and Savior, are indeed what we refer to as Christian today, right?

Mary, His mother, acceptd Him as the promised Messiah (how could she NOT really?) and followed Him.

Would you say that she was a Jew until she died or that she became a Christian?

If you don't feel she was a Christian, could you give us a brief definition of what you think a Christian is?

Even if Mary WAS a Christian that doesn't make her not a Jew.

TrustAndObey · Mar 19, 2008

fated said:
People can be sincerely wrong in believing they are following God with their heart. They must also do so with their mind and body.

Amen to that!

TrustAndObey · Mar 19, 2008

fated said:
Even if Mary WAS a Christian that doesn't make her not a Jew.

Okay then, what is your definition of a Jew in this day and age? Just their bloodline, or something else?

fated · Mar 19, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
Okay then, what is your definition of a Jew in this day and age? Just their bloodline, or something else?

I would generally accept a Jewish definition, such as blood line, an obvious outward sign, such as keeping the laws, or a self-description as such. Jesus points out that He is a Jew when dealing with the woman and describes "gentiles" as lap dogs. The woman at the well is amazed that a Jew is talking with her. And obviously Mary was a Jew and Joseph, the adoptive father was a Jew as well.

Is the Sabbath a 'test of loyalty'?

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