Is the Sabbath a 'test of loyalty'?

fated · Mar 17, 2008

I don't know. Maybe its just me, but I thought this was THE place where someone could teach me how to observe the Sabbath.

For instance. In Orthodox Judaism, it is improper to tear toilet paper on the Sabbath, as it is similar in some way to construction work. Would this be a reasonable rule?
Could I go for a walk with my family on the Sabbath? This seems perfectly within confines of the spirit of the Sabbath Commandment.

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

fated said:
I don't know. Maybe its just me, but I thought this was THE place where someone could teach me how to observe the Sabbath.

For instance. In Orthodox Judaism, it is improper to tear toilet paper on the Sabbath, as it is similar in some way to construction work. Would this be a reasonable rule?
Could I go for a walk with my family on the Sabbath? This seems perfectly within confines of the spirit of the Sabbath Commandment.

We can't teach you how to observe Sabbath fated. None of us here have constructed a "do's" and "don'ts" list. We follow the example that Christ left for us, and that is the best that any of us can do.

But not tearing toilet paper (or pushing buttons on an elevator, I've heard)....wow. Hmmm. The Pharisees would be proud of them wouldn't they?

It's a blessing to spend 24 hours with God on the day He commanded us to do so.

I try to walk with my boys and get out in nature every Sabbath. The commandment is about creation and the Creator...so absolutely it is reasonable. He created this beautiful planet and my beautiful children, and I enjoy both.

fated · Mar 17, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
We can't teach you how to observe Sabbath fated. None of us here have constructed a "do's" and "don'ts" list. We follow the example that Christ left for us, and that is the best that any of us can do.

But not tearing toilet paper (or pushing buttons on an elevator, I've heard)....wow. Hmmm. The Pharisees would be proud of them wouldn't they?

It's a blessing to spend 24 hours with God on the day He commanded us to do so.

I try to walk with my boys and get out in nature every Sabbath. The commandment is about creation and the Creator...so absolutely it is reasonable. He created this beautiful planet and my beautiful children, and I enjoy both.

I wouldn't be so harsh on Jewish custom, things like the toilet paper tearing have a lesson to them too as I said. The Sabbath has kept the Jewish people Jewish since... well... history...

fated · Mar 17, 2008

Well, suppose someone has a particular gift... near constant reflective prayer, do they "observe" every day? What should they do differently on the Sabbath?

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

Another thing I'd like to add is that we're told not to judge each other on how we observe Sabbath. Let no MAN therefore judge you.......

It's about physical rest, time with God, time for remembrance and enjoyment of creation...

I'm going to college to be a nurse and in the particular specialty field I've chosen, there will be times that I'll be called in on the Sabbath day. When it happens occasionally (because it will), I won't accept money for it. I want to be a healer like Christ and I want to help others.

I'm not going into labor and delivery like most of my friends, but in any field a nurse chooses there will be emergencies. Babies are born on Sabbaths, people will be in accidents, drug addicts will come in for treatment, etc etc.

By example, it is lawful to do good.

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

fated said:
Well, suppose someone has a particular gift... near constant reflective prayer, do they "observe" every day? What should they do differently on the Sabbath?

I worship God every single day, but I CANNOT cease from all work seven days a week. Part of the commandment is to work six days a week.

The "different" part would come in not doing secular work for your own benefit and resting and spending devoted time to God as He commanded.

It's not all about rules. It's about showing the Creator we love Him back.

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

fated said:
I wouldn't be so harsh on Jewish custom, things like the toilet paper tearing have a lesson to them too as I said. The Sabbath has kept the Jewish people Jewish since... well... history...

Sabbath is the only thing that kept them Jewish? I'm confused. I think there's room to mention their unbelief in our Savior too?

Christ fought against the Pharisees placing unbiblical restrictions on the Sabbath and I will too. Again, by example, it is supposed to be a BLESSING and not about crazy rules.

fated · Mar 17, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
I worship God every single day, but I CANNOT cease from all work seven days a week. Part of the commandment is to work six days a week.

The "different" part would come in not doing secular work for your own benefit and resting and spending devoted time to God as He commanded.

It's not all about rules. It's about showing the Creator we love Him back.

Suppose this particular person is a stay at home parent and little or none of their work is for them self.

fated · Mar 17, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
Sabbath is the only thing that kept them Jewish? I'm confused. I think there's room to mention their unbelief in our Savior too?

Christ fought against the Pharisees placing unbiblical restrictions on the Sabbath and I will too. Again, by example, it is supposed to be a BLESSING and not about crazy rules.

Often times, we see the rules develop as a result of belief passed on to children. When you don't have to tear the TP you will remember the temple. When you go through the doorway, you'll remember the most important (the first) commandment. Etc... that is much of Judaism.

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

fated said:
Suppose this particular person is a stay at home parent and little or none of their work is for them self.

That would be me.

Babies poop on Sabbath and there are things that HAVE to be done, Christ knew that and told us to do it.

But as far as housework...I know from experience that it will still be there the next day.

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

fated said:
Often times, we see the rules develop as a result of belief passed on to children. When you don't have to tear the TP you will remember the temple. When you go through the doorway, you'll remember the most important (the first) commandment. Etc... that is much of Judaism.

Christ never asked us to let our muscles atrophy on the Sabbath. He didn't care much for traditions of men either.

Let no man judge you....the commandment is actually very simple, and I don't allow tradition or other people to dictate how I spend time with God.

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

fated, do Jewish people change diapers on Sabbath (I really don't know, that's why I'm asking).

fated · Mar 17, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
fated, do Jewish people change diapers on Sabbath (I really don't know, that's why I'm asking).

From what I've read there is no proscription from that type of task. Most of it is just bits of memorials, perhaps some with purposes that have become vague, and time spent as a community or family remembering each other and God. The unifying power of it is quite incredible, and long vindicated.

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

fated said:
From what I've read there is no proscription from that type of task. Most of it is just bits of memorials, perhaps some with purposes that have become vague, and time spent as a community or family remembering each other and God. The unifying power of it is quite incredible, and long vindicated.

I'm sure they do...surely, surely, surely. I can't imagine any rest if your baby is screaming in pain from being raw. I would imagine a small child would learn to hate one day a week if they knew on that day they were always going to be uncomfortable and in physical pain.

I don't know why I even asked really. I know Jewish people wouldn't neglect their children one day a week. They love God's holy day very much and they want their children to love it too.

But I wonder why they think pushing the button on an elevator is "work"? It seems so odd to me.

I don't understand it, but I can't judge. I just will NOT let anyone tell me I'm not observing Sabbath "correctly" if I don't follow unbiblical tradition.

For a stay-at-home mom changing diapers can certainly feel like "work" though. It's our ox in a ditch.

TrustAndObey · Mar 17, 2008

thecountrydoc said:
Hi Lainie,

Adam and Eve also had to have faith that God would indeed keep His word and offer them salvation. The taking of that first sheeps life for their clothing must have been devestating. The explination for why it was needed, and the fact that they would need to continue to take life themselves for sacrafices, must have been a very humbling experience for them.

They, just like Jesus, had no advantage over anyone today. They, just like us, had to be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

Oh definitely a humbling experience. I was raised on a farm. I can't tell you how much I loved all the animals (even the ones that hated me). I'm sure Adam and Eve spent a lot of time with the animals and maybe even spent time with the very sheep that was sacrificed for their sin.

I hadn't really thought about this either.

thecountrydoc · Mar 18, 2008

Hi fated,

As a response to my last post you replied:

Obligations fall within reasonability. There are a large number of laws regarding the observance of the Sabbath contained in the Bible. Ideally, we should all be able to observe all of these laws on the Sabbath, but, it seems it is generally "unreasonable" to expect them ALL to be followed, especially for those who are unable to devote so much time to holiness, and legitimately, for those for which such a level of holiness would only work for self-edification, and thus be contrary to work on behalf of building up the community.

In short, how does one determine which Sabbath laws are required for community edification without forcing non-justified community sacrifice for the sake of hypocritical pharisaic style self-edification?

You are correct when you say that there were many laws concerning the Sabbath that Jews considered themselves to be under. These additional laws were a part of the 613 laws that were considered to be the law of Moses. Let me briefly explain.

What is correctly called the law of Moses was what was given to Moses, by God, after God gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Mt. Siani. They were written by the hand of Moses, not by the finger of God in stone. Over time those laws as given to Moses were amplified and expanded to their current standards.

You have ask questions about Sabbath observance compared to, and based on, these additional laws given to the Childern of Israel. These additional laws also included laws pertaining to the daily and yearly sacrafices, conduct in every day life, dietary laws, and many, many more. Along with these additional laws the prescribed punishment for breaking them was stated. When Jesus died on the cross it brought an end to these additional laws. There was for instance no more need of the deaily and yearly sacrifices which served only to point to the cross.

There is another aspect why the laws were of no benefit to the Jews of Christ time. The Jews kept those laws by a very strict, self-imposed, code of conduct. They did not keep those laws because of love in their hearts for God or man. Without love the laws were of no value to them or anyone else. It is to be out of love for God and love for our fellow man that we are to keep God's law.

With the above in mind, we must first grasp the proper concepts of God and why He gave us His commandments. Once we understand the correct concepts of God and His love for us we can establish biblical principals that can be applied to our lives today. This includes how we should observe the Sabbath. The application of biblical principales to ones life is something that we, with the help of the Holy Spirit, must do according to our own convictions. God doesn't want us to follow the letter of the law, without following the intent of the law. In order to do this we first must have the love of God in our heart.

If I have not answered your questions sufficently, or you have additional questions, please feel to ask for more information.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

fated · Mar 18, 2008

thecountrydoc said:
Hi fated,

As a response to my last post you replied:You are correct when you say that there were many laws concerning the Sabbath that Jews considered themselves to be under. These additional laws were a part of the 613 laws that were considered to be the law of Moses. Let me briefly explain.

What is correctly called the law of Moses was what was given to Moses, by God, after God gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Mt. Siani. They were written by the hand of Moses, not by the finger of God in stone. Over time those laws as given to Moses were amplified and expanded to their current standards.

You have ask questions about Sabbath observance compared to, and based on, these additional laws given to the Childern of Israel. These additional laws also included laws pertaining to the daily and yearly sacrafices, conduct in every day life, dietary laws, and many, many more. Along with these additional laws the prescribed punishment for breaking them was stated. When Jesus died on the cross it brought an end to these additional laws. There was for instance no more need of the deaily and yearly sacrifices which served only to point to the cross.

There is another aspect why the laws were of no benefit to the Jews of Christ time. The Jews kept those laws by a very strict, self-imposed, code of conduct. They did not keep those laws because of love in their hearts for God or man. Without love the laws were of no value to them or anyone else. It is to be out of love for God and love for our fellow man that we are to keep God's law.

With the above in mind, we must first grasp the proper concepts of God and why He gave us His commandments. Once we understand the correct concepts of God and His love for us we can establish biblical principals that can be applied to our lives today. This includes how we should observe the Sabbath. The application of biblical principales to ones life is something that we, with the help of the Holy Spirit, must do according to our own convictions. God doesn't want us to follow the letter of the law, without following the intent of the law. In order to do this we first must have the love of God in our heart.

If I have not answered your questions sufficently, or you have additional questions, please feel to ask for more information.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

I don't see what this has to do with SDA beliefs, so maybe its not for here:

But, I would take the position that, for most of the Jews (including some Saducees and Pharisees), the laws regarding keeping the Sabbath were a loving response to God, as they are today, and also a unifying aspect of Jewish life, as they continue to be today. Every action with your heart directed toward God is effectual to some extent for ones salvation, so I would take the position that the average Jew, then as now, who follows the law with their heart toward God, does good work. "Effecting salvation" is done, first and foremost, by baptism, right?

In short, all I'm saying is that following the old laws is not necessarily "ineffectual" and could be quite "effectual" depending on ones spiritual disposition.

Right?

TrustAndObey · Mar 18, 2008

The Sabbath isn't an old law though.

The Jewish traditions may be passed down from generation to generation, but they are not necessarily views held by Christians as to how they wish to spend time with God on His holy day.

There isn't a big list of what not to do and what specifically to do. The commandment is very clear itself.

fated · Mar 18, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
The Sabbath isn't an old law though.

The Jewish traditions may be passed down from generation to generation, but they are not necessarily views held by Christians as to how they wish to spend time with God on His holy day.

There isn't a big list of what not to do and what specifically to do. The commandment is very clear itself.

I'm not indicating the necessity of keeping the Jewish law.

On the other hand, the commandment itself is ambiguous in the sense that it is imprecise. Otherwise I would have been given a more specific answer when I asked.

honorthesabbath · Mar 18, 2008

fated said:
I'm not indicating the necessity of keeping the Jewish law.

On the other hand, the commandment itself is ambiguous in the sense that it is imprecise. Otherwise I would have been given a more specific answer when I asked.

HI fated--I have been reading your posts and those of others concerning this issue. We must always be careful not to add to the Word of God. Jesus warned that....

Mt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mr 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mr 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Mr 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mr 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I think you get where I'm going with this. Jesus tried to show the Jews that the burdens placed upon them, NOT BY THE WORD OF GOD, but by other humans, was making void the commandments of God.

You said..

On the other hand, the commandment itself is ambiguous in the sense that it is imprecise.

I believe that the commandment is just as the Father wanted it stated. As for the particulars of the observance of the Sabbath---this is where the living Holy Spirit of God comes in. God's word says the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all righteousness. IOW-it is the Spirit of God that will impress upon your mind HOW to keep the Sabbath.

I have to be honest with you fated, not tearing TP on the Sabbath is one of those man-made rules that Jesus condemned. We must remember that LOVE FOR GOD and LOVE FOR EACH OTHER is what the 10c is all about. I don't think avoiding tearing the TP is an offense to God or man! As a matter of fact--I'm sure NOT using it on the Sabbath would be an offense--especially to those close by!

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