Is the rapture?

Marilyn C said:

Hi Rex,

God`s word tells us exactly where Enoch is - in the General Assembly in the third heaven awaiting his new body. He is one of the spirit of just men, (& woman).

`By faith Enoch was taken so that he did not see death, "and he was not found because God had taken him," for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.` (Heb. 11: 5)

`You have come to Mount Zion .....to the general Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT. (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

regards, Marilyn.

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Honestly it's hard to understand cherry picked scripture I will have to reread the chapters.

Vivat Christus Rex said:

Honestly it's hard to understand cherry picked scripture I will have to reread the chapters.

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And that's why I said he wasn't dead yet.

Vivat Christus Rex said:

Have you seen any signs?

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Hi again Rex,

1. The Body of Christ is coming to maturity by the Holy Spirit, and the unity of the faith. (Eph. 4: 13)
2. The Global Economic collapse about to happen which will fast track us to a days wage for a loaf of bread. (Rev. 6: 6)
3. The Russians and Iranians are gathering at Israel`s northern border. (Ez. 38: 1 - 8)
4. The Peace Negotiator is preparing in Iraq. (see my blog) (Dan. 11: 21)

regards, Marilyn.

Vivat Christus Rex said:

Honestly it's hard to understand cherry picked scripture I will have to reread the chapters.

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Ay Rex, what is `cherry picked about scriptures relating to the topic bro. Let`s just discuss the word & not throw generalisations around.

Glad you are going to check God`s word. Would have been better to do that first.

regards, Marilyn.

Vivat Christus Rex said:

And that's why I said he wasn't dead yet.

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And scripture for that!

Marilyn C said:

Hi Mark,

Good question. We always need to see who the speaker is talking to. So here we see that Jesus is talking to the people of Israel. If they believe in Him then on the last day, the final day of earth then they will be raised up to go into the new earth.

We the Body of Christ are of a different purpose, and we will be going to rule with the Lord in the third heaven previous to that. The Apostle Paul reveals that to us, by the Holy Spirit.

There is a heavenly purpose and an earthly purpose. God made each realm for man to have rulership in.

regards, Marilyn,

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Sorry belief is not enough I could believe clouds are cotton balls but that wouldn't stop me from getting rained on. I would have to do a work like putting on a poncho or opening an umbrella
Vivat Christus Rex

Marilyn C said:

And scripture for that!

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Sorry I don't have the chapter and verse memorized that's not how my brain works. But I can tell you what is said and disseminate the meaning with out quoting. Had I known I had to memorize the Bible to post I would have not started. I will find the verses if asked though.

Marilyn C said:

Hi again Rex,

1. The Body of Christ is coming to maturity by the Holy Spirit, and the unity of the faith. (Eph. 4: 13)
2. The Global Economic collapse about to happen which will fast track us to a days wage for a loaf of bread. (Rev. 6: 6)
3. The Russians and Iranians are gathering at Israel`s northern border. (Ez. 38: 1 - 8)
4. The Peace Negotiator is preparing in Iraq. (see my blog) (Dan. 11: 21)

regards, Marilyn.

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You missed the one on Sept 23 2017 when Mary the Queen of heaven appeared with the sun at her back moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head and on the 9th she (constlation vergo) gave birth to Jupiter

Vivat Christus Rex said:

Sorry I don't have the chapter and verse memorized that's not how my brain works. But I can tell you what is said and disseminate the meaning with out quoting. Had I known I had to memorize the Bible to post I would have not started. I will find the verses if asked though.

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You could look up the Strong`s concordance or any others to help you find the verse. Otherwise we can all just speak off the top of our heads and that gets us no where.

regards, Marilyn.

Vivat Christus Rex said:

You missed the one on Sept 23 2017 when Mary the Queen of heaven appeared with the sun at her back moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head and on the 9th she (constlation vergo) gave birth to Jupiter

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Hi Rex,

No scriptural backing for that. Now remember....when there is a symbol in scripture God has the interpretation clearly in His word. Not something man puts together.

Marilyn.

Vivat Christus Rex said:

Sorry belief is not enough I could believe clouds are cotton balls but that wouldn't stop me from getting rained on. I would have to do a work like putting on a poncho or opening an umbrella
Vivat Christus Rex

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Hi Rex,

You are big on colourful language there bro, and fancy talk but short on scripture, so I will leave you to your `comic strips.`

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Hi Rex,

No scriptural backing for that. Now remember....when there is a symbol in scripture God has the interpretation clearly in His word. Not something man puts together.

Marilyn.

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Sorry forgot you need precision. Try apocalypse chapter 12 verse 1 and if you want full context read chapter 11 first where she is called the arc of the covenant. Since link the arc of old she carried the high priest(Aarons staff that bloomed almonds) the word made flesh(the tablets of the 10 commandments)and the bread of life(manna from the desert) Jesus fulfilled all 3 in one like a Holy Trinity. Also saint king David met the arc in the wilderness and stayed with it for 3 Months he kept for joy at its arrival and said who am I that the arc of the Lord should come to me...much like Mary spending 3 Months in the same wilderness with saint Elisabeth and then Mary spoke st John lept in the womb and Elisabeth said who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me. I can also explain the Queenship if you want

Marilyn C said:

Hi Rex,

You are big on colourful language there bro, and fancy talk but short on scripture, so I will leave you to your `comic strips.`

Marilyn.

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Your loss.

jgr said:

There is no record of enduring belief in a pretrib rapture to be found in true Christian Church doctrinal orthodoxy up to the 19th century.

It is modernist doctrine.

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The pretrib rapture is glaringly antibiblical. Jesus explains at length what his followers will suffer in the tribulation. How is it that pretribbers don't see that, but they do see a pretrib rapture which isn't even vaguely taught in any verse?

We have many modern doctrines that appeal to the flesh that are taught by greedy pastors, and not taught the Bible. That also includes mid- and post-trib rapture doctrines.

jgr said:

There is no record of enduring belief in a pretrib rapture to be found in true Christian Church doctrinal orthodoxy up to the 19th century.

It is modernist doctrine.

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A Discovery that the Pretribulation Rapture Was Taught in the Early Church

During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture in the early church.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pretribulation Rapture

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present-day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until I wrote FINAL WARNING in 1995. Some scholars suggested that this manuscript was written several centuries later (5th or 6th century) but definitely before the birth of Islam in 622. However William Bousset, one of the greatest scholars on ancient eschatology, concluded in his book The Antichrist Legend that it was written by Ephraem the Syrian before A.D. 373.1 Andrew R. Anderson wrote in his book Alexander's Gate that he accepted the early date as being valid.2

This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a very clear statement about the pretribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. For additional details read the article Examining an ancient Pre-tribulation Rapture statement on this web site.

1. William Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson & Co., 1896)

2. Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932)

*The above is an excerpt taken from Grant Jeffrey's release,
Triumphant Return

Marilyn C said:

Hi again Rex,

1. The Body of Christ is coming to maturity by the Holy Spirit, and the unity of the faith. (Eph. 4: 13)
2. The Global Economic collapse about to happen which will fast track us to a days wage for a loaf of bread. (Rev. 6: 6)
3. The Russians and Iranians are gathering at Israel`s northern border. (Ez. 38: 1 - 8)
4. The Peace Negotiator is preparing in Iraq. (see my blog) (Dan. 11: 21)

regards, Marilyn.

Click to expand...

Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. 1260 days in the city where their Lord was crucified. Killed by the beast and refused burial. Then raised to life and caught up to heaven as the whole world looks on. The beasts reign is 42 months. That beast is destroyed by Jesus. Rev 16:5-16 2 thess 2:8

Barney said:

The pretrib rapture is glaringly antibiblical. Jesus explains at length what his followers will suffer in the tribulation. How is it that pretribbers don't see that, but they do see a pretrib rapture which isn't even vaguely taught in any verse?

We have many modern doctrines that appeal to the flesh that are taught by greedy pastors, and not taught the Bible. That also includes mid- and post-trib rapture doctrines.

Click to expand...

This is Jesus speaking in Rev 3:10

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In the original Greek this word is "ek" which means "out of" as opposed to "through" so the proper translation would be:

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Trumpeter2 said:

A Discovery that the Pretribulation Rapture Was Taught in the Early Church

During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture in the early church.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pretribulation Rapture

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present-day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until I wrote FINAL WARNING in 1995. Some scholars suggested that this manuscript was written several centuries later (5th or 6th century) but definitely before the birth of Islam in 622. However William Bousset, one of the greatest scholars on ancient eschatology, concluded in his book The Antichrist Legend that it was written by Ephraem the Syrian before A.D. 373.1 Andrew R. Anderson wrote in his book Alexander's Gate that he accepted the early date as being valid.2

This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a very clear statement about the pretribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. For additional details read the article Examining an ancient Pre-tribulation Rapture statement on this web site.

1. William Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson & Co., 1896)

2. Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932)

*The above is an excerpt taken from Grant Jeffrey's release,
Triumphant Return

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Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Critics of pretribulationism sometimes state that belief in the rapture is a doctrinal development of recent origin. They argue that the doctrine of the rapture or any semblance of it was completely unknown before the early 1800s and the writings of John Nelson Darby. One of the most vocal and sensational critics of the rapture is Dave MacPherson, who argues that, "during the first 18 centuries of the Christian era, believers were never 'Rapture separaters' [sic]; they never separated the minor Rapture aspect of the Second Coming of Christ from the Second Coming itself."1

A second critic, John Bray, also vehemently opposes a pretribulational rapture, writing, "this teaching is not a RECOVERY of truth once taught and then neglected. No, it never was taught-for 1800 years nearly no one knew anything about such a scheme."2 More recently, pre-trib opponent Robert Van Kampen proclaimed, "The pretribulational rapture position with its dual parousias was unheard of in church history prior to 1830."3 In our previous issue of Pre-Trib Perspectives, I noted that pre-wrath advocate Marvin Rosenthal has also joined the chorus.4

Christian reconstructionists have also consistently and almost universally condemned premillennialism and pretribulationism, favoring instead, postmillen-nialism. One sample of their prolific and often vitri-olic opposition can be seen in Gary North's derisive description of the rapture as "the Church's hoped-for Escape Hatch on the world's sinking ship," which he, like MacPherson, believes was invented in 1830.5

How to Find the Rapture in History

Is pretribulationism as theologically bankrupt as its critics profess, or are there answers to these charges? If there are reasonable answers, then the burden of proof and historical argumentation shifts back to the critics. Rapture critics must acknowledge and interact with the historical and theological evidence.

Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing the validity of a historical citation regarding the rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is "of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely, "Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period."6

Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement

I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7 He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over the phone:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at him all the questions I have since received many times when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C. area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant statement. The more information I acquired led me to conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture statement of antiquity.

Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?

The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.

It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem."9 What is more difficult, though secondary to the main purpose of this article, is determining the exact date, purpose, location of, and extent of subsequent editorial changes to the sermon.10

Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date,11 to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627.12 Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the final form similar to that suggested by Caspari,13 but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter."14 All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.

Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon

The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author.15 Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most probable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek.16 Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.

What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.

The sermon is built around the three themes of the title On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World and proceeds chronologically. The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence. This characteristic of the sermon fits the first criteria outlined by William Bell, namely "that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years." Thus, phase one is the rapture statement from section 2; the interval of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days, said to be the tribulation in sections 7 and 8; the second phase of Christ's return is noted in section 10 and said to take place "when the three and a half years have been completed."17

Why Pseudo-Ephraem's Statement is Pretribulational

After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement. A few thought it was a statement from such pre-trib proponents like John Walvoord orCharles Ryrie. Most noted the clear statement concerning the removal of believers before thetribulation as a reason for thinking the statement pre-trib. This is Bell's second criteria for identifying a pre-trib statement from the past, namely, "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period." Note the following reasons why this should be taken as a pre-trib statement:

1) Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent [Latin "immineat"] or overhanging."18 This is similar to the modern pre-trib view of imminency and considering the subsequent rapture statements supports a pre-trib scenario.

2) As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven. Once again, in conformity to a translation scenario found in the pre-trib teaching.

The next phrase says that the gathering takes place "prior to the tribulation that is to come. . ." so we see that the event is pretribulational and the tribulation is future to the time in which Pseudo-Ephraem wrote.

The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.

3) Finally, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians.19 Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation. Alexander observed:

It is probably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.20

Conclusion

Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.

ENDNOTES

1 Dave MacPherson, The Great Rapture Hoax (Fletcher, NC: New Puritan Library, 1983), 15. For a refutation of MacPherson's charges see Thomas D. Ice, "Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture Did Not Begin with Margaret Macdonald," Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990): 155-68.

2 John L. Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (Lakeland, FL.: John L. Bray Ministry, 1982), 31-32.

3 Robert Van Kampen, The Sign (Wheaton, IL.: Crossway Books, 1992), 445.

4 Thomas Ice, "Is The Pre-Trib Rapture A Satanic Deception?" Pre-Trib Perspectives (II:1; March 1995):1-3.

5 Gary North, Rapture Fever: Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed (Tyler, TX.: Institute for Christian Economics, 1993), 105.

6 William E. Bell, "A Critical Evaluation of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine in Christian Eschatology" (Ph.D. diss., New York University, 1967), 26-27.

7 For more information on the Pseudo-Ephraem statement see Grant R. Jeffrey, Final Warning (Toronto: Frontier Research Publications, 1995). Forthcoming, Timothy Demy and Thomas Ice, "The Rapture and an Early Medieval Citation" Bibliotheca Sacra 152 (July 1995): 300-11. Grant R. Jeffrey, "A Pretribulational Rapture Statement in the Early Medieval Church" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, ed., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, Or: Harvest House, 1995).

8 Grant Jeffrey found the statement in Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, by (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), 2.10. The late Alexander found the sermon in C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, (Christiania, 1890), 208-20. This German work also contains Caspari's commentary on the sermon on pages 429-72.

9 Paul J. Alexander, "The Diffusion of Byzantine Apocalypses in the Medieval West and the Beginnings of Joachimism," in Prophecy and Millenarianism: Essays in Honour of Marjorie Reeves, ed. Ann Williams (Essex, U.K. : Longman, 1980), 59.

10 Paul J. Alexander, "Medieval Apocalypses as Historical Sources," American Historical Review 73 (1968): 1017. In this essay Alexander addresses in-depth the historical difficulties facing the interpreter of such texts. To these difficulties, issues of theological interpretation and concern must also be added.

11 W. Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson and Co., 1896), 33-41. An early date is also accepted by Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932):16-18.

12 Caspari, 437-42.

13 Alexander, Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, 147. This leaves the possibility that the work may have been altered or revised prior to the date of the extant manuscripts.

14 Ibid., 145. Earlier, he writes: "All that is certain, is as Caspari pointed out, that it must have been written prior to Heraclius' victories over Sassanid Persia, for the author talks repeatedly of wars between Rome and Persia and such discussions do not make sense after Heraclius' victories and the beginning of the Arab invasions" (144).

15 Ibid., 136-37. The only critical edition is Caspari's which suffers a lack of objectivity in that he relied upon only two of the four extant manuscripts.

16 Ibid., 140-44.

17 Caspari, 219. English citations are taken from a translation of the sermon provided by Cameron

Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.

18 Ibid., 210.

19 Alexander, 209.

20 Ibid., 210-11.

Trumpeter2 said:

This is Jesus speaking in Rev 3:10

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In the original Greek this word is "ek" which means "out of" as opposed to "through" so the proper translation would be:

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

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If you looked at the Greek, you should have seen that "keep" is a translation of tereo, which means to guard or watch, not rapture or remove. If they persevere, Jesus will watch them in the coming hour of trial. If they were raptured, guarding or watching wouldn't be an issue.

Ek is a dirt-common preposition in the Bible, usually translated "of". It doesn't itself mean "out of", even if in some places the context might imply "out of".

I don't know what it means, but Jesus twice refers to temptation in the verse, not once using a word that means tribulation.

Not even the last objection to your position that could be made, this church, Philadelphia, that will be watched literally is a church in the first century, not one around today. For those people who imagine the seven churches are seven church ages, the church Jesus promises to watch isn't the last church. So, it's not the church that pretribbers believe will be raptured.

In short, Rev 3:10 doesn't speak of a rapture. And, it's the wrong church for the pretrib rapture.

Markwsmith2020 said:

The reason I ask this question is
John 6:40
I will raise him up at the last day.

Last day?

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Hi mark,

It's my understanding that this 'last day' that Jesus is referring to is this day:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

In this passage Jesus is telling us that a day will come that will be the last day of life on this planet as we know it today. The wicked dead will remain in their graves while Jesus will resurrect all those who have been faithful to him to live for a thousand years with him. This is explained to us as the first resurrection. It is also explained that those who take part in the first resurrection will not be subject to the second death. That is the death that will be dealt out on the day of God's final judgment of all mankind after the 1,000 year reign of Jesus upon the earth.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted