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Obviously you either did not read or understand the posts that I gave validation of the rapture , your understanding of scripture failed just as you failed to see my scriptural evidence , ya know it's not like this thread is 40 pages long , it would seem that you could read the only 2 pages of the thread , you show various evidences of how you rush through your readings which cause your failure to understand what you read"
While you give no Scripture and since you can not back up your thoughts with the Word of God, that is when it becomes "your post".
Yeah, you would think so.........When you said there is no rapture - that invalidates - as it shows you do not understand scripture because the rapture is 100% true and 100% Biblical - you should know that IF you really studied the topic
Views of eschatological timing
According to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:37-40 the rapture would occur in the Parousia of the Lord where the Greek "Parousia" is used to describe the events:
Matthew 24:37-40 NIV
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming (παρουσία Parousia)[33] of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming (παρουσία Parousia)[34] of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ASV
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord (παρουσίαν Parousia),[32] will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Premillenialist views
Though the Catholic Church does not generally regard biblical prophecy in texts such as Daniel and Revelation as strictly future-based (when viewed from the standpoint of our present time), in 1590 Francisco Ribera, a Catholic Jesuit, taught "futurism"—the idea that most of Revelation is about the imminent future (rather than containing certain prophecies that were already fulfilled in the early years of the church)......
Pre-tribulational Premillennialism
The pre-tribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of a seven-year tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of it. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church........
Mid-tribulational Premillennialism
The mid-tribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of what is popularly called the tribulation period, or during Daniel's 70th Week. The tribulation is typically divided into two periods of 3.5 years each. Mid-tribulationists hold that the saints will go through the first period (Beginning of Travail), but will be raptured into Heaven before the severe outpouring of God's wrath in the second half of what is popularly called the great tribulation. Mid-tribulationists appeal to Daniel 7:25 which says the saints will be given over to tribulation for "time, times, and half a time,..............
Prewrath Premillennialism
Main article: Prewrath
The prewrath rapture view also places the rapture at some point during the tribulation period before the second coming. This view holds that the tribulation of the church begins toward the latter part of a seven-year period, being Daniel's 70th week, when the Antichrist is revealed in the temple. This latter half of a seven-year period [i.e. 3 1/2 years] is defined as the great tribulation, although the exact duration is not known...........
Partial Pre-Tribulation Pre-millennialism
The partial, conditional or selective rapture theory holds that all obedient Christians will be raptured before the great tribulation depending on ones personal fellowship (or closeness) between she or he and God, which is not to be confused with the relationship between the same and God (which is believer, regardless of fellowship.) [68][69] Therefore, it is believed by some that the rapture of a believer is determined by the timing of his conversion before the great tribulation.............
Post-tribulational Premillennialism
Main article: Post-tribulation rapture
In the post-tribulation premillennial position, the rapture would be identical to the second coming of Jesus or as a meeting in the air with Jesus that immediately precedes his return to the Earth before a literal millennium. The post-tribulation position places the rapture at the end of the tribulation period. Post-tribulation writers define the tribulation period in a generic sense as the entire present age, or in a specific sense of a period of time preceding the second coming of Christ.[72] The emphasis in this view is that the church will undergo the tribulation............
Post-Millennialism
Main article: Postmillennialism
In the Post-Millennialism view the millennium is seen as an indefinitely long time thus precluding literal interpretation of a thousand-year period. According to Loraine Boettner "the world will be Christianized, and the return of Christ will occur at the close of a long period of righteousness and peace, commonly called the millennium."[76] Post-Millennialists commonly view the rapture of the Church as one and the same event as the second coming of Christ. According to them the great tribulation was already fulfilled in the Jewish-Roman War of 66–73 AD that involved the destruction of Jerusalem..............
Amillennialism
Main article: Amillennialism
Amillennialists view the millennial rule of Christ as the current, but indefinite period that began with the foundation of the church and that will end with the Second Coming—a period where Christ already reigns with his saints through the Eucharist and his church. They view the life of the church as Christ's kingdom already established (inaugurated on the day of the Pentecost described in the first chapter of Acts), but not to made complete until his second coming..............
LOL Seriously ??? that is nearly verbatim the very definition of the EXACT word that Paul used You are not even close !
Here is the very exact definition :
Harpazo IS the word that is used
Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch,
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
This is why it is so important to truly understand , other matters DEEPLY , such the Feast days , Firsts Fruits and other matters as there is more than a surface understanding , many prophetic verses use horticultural methods to speak to the rapture and the 2nd coming , just as scripture makes reference to Not putting new wine into old wine skins , as it is more than simply putting wine into a wine skin , there is a deeper meaning to it , When Jesus was asked why he spoke in parables , it was because if he spoke in a literal manner they would not understand , so he spoke in a manner that they would be able to relate to , parables most often are just a different way of speaking of something literally put in a way that people can relate to when they cannot literally see it ,
Yes , but not the rapture of the entire church , as some has already been raptured before them, there is reason why there a views that speak of a pre mid and post rapture , and why they are referred to as harvests of souls , just like grapes , there is a gathering harvest of the grapes that are currently ripe and would spoil if they were not harvested if waiting for the rest of the grapes to ripen , then there is the practice of leaving some of the harvests at each of the four corners of the field , for others to harvest -
If that is true that would mean there was also the resurrection of the dead as well. Pretib is based on the alleged fact that the church is spared the wrath coming, meaning to most Pretribbers, the GT. But the already dead though, meaning those who rise first, they wouldn't need to be spared the wrath of the GT. Why would they need to rise at that particular time then, assuming Pretrib?
This is exactly the reason why i made post #9 , approx 80%+ of the Church do not truly study , they may read but not really study , most just prefer to listen in church services to learn and that be about as far as they will go , but yet will proclaim they "know" the scriptures .
A person MUST fully and deeply understand the Fullness of the scripture teachings of the First Fruits and the HOLY Feast days , - most people do not know this , it be like knowing 16 letters of the alphabet and claiming they KNOW the alphabet ,some people that can barely read proclaiming that they have no problem reading
Post tribbers do not truly grasp the fullness because they choose not to , they choose not to study to know WHY the Great Trib happens and why Jesus speaks specifically about it , as they prefer to believe it is just the same as the everyday tribulations that everyone goes through ,
That is like comparing any and every flood to be exactly the same as the flood of Noah's day.
Simple analogy - two people fishing and one that does not catch fish ,- sitting beside a person catching many fish telling the him (the other) he needs to put a weight on his fishing line to take the worm down to where the fish are , but that person not catching fish chooses not to do that , they simply choose not to because "they" don't want to .
The HOLY Feast Days ARE indeed GODs HOLY DAYS and some people do not want to accept that as they try to say they are just men's religious days because they choose not to believe what God commanded
It is really like amil v premil where amil have no intention of even trying to see things in any other way than which they do , thinking that every answer to prophecy is found in the past and cannot be found in the future ,
In some biblical topics the mindset is like those who insist there is no free lunch and work is meant to be hard - it can take forever and a day to get people to open their minds eye to see all that scripture teaches, as they limit themselves and others to their point of view
Some people totally miss the point when they say it is all about what we do for God and what they think they must go through for God , when all through the scriptures it is GOD saying Stand Still and watch God Handle it , ALL God requires is to believe that HE will HANDLE IT - ie -the walls of Jericho
This topic is brought up in a new thread every few weeks and the same old same old argument starts all over again
Which is why it be beneficial to all to simply study IN DEPTH First Fruits , Gods HOLY Feast Days , the barley harvest , the wheat harvest and the grapes harvest and study to find out why these topics are used to teach biblical principals by the apostles and Jesus including the rapture and harvests of souls
and the First Resurrection in deep detail because these are more deeply detailed than most even begin to know
An example of what I said when people do not study - If you really studied the topic you would find that pre trib has been taught since Paul wrote of the rapture in His day- where people get this error is thinking that they can get deep truth in a few google clicks , it is easy to get a link into the top 10 google links so that people will see the link , it is a simple marketing strategy to get noticed quickly as studies show that most people will only search through the first page or two of google searches
the word rapture came from the Protestants in around the 16th -17th century and most , nearly all church goers never heard the word harpazo which is the Greek word Paul used , then St Jerome translated it into raperium , rapiemur . rapio, in the Latin Vulgate then it was translated into English as rapture ,
they all mean the same thing referring to the sudden unexpected snatching away, catching away ,caught away suddenly by force and taken to another location
9 out of 10 churches refuse to teach bible prophecy , which causes people who are interested in doing quick google searches and accept misinformation as truth simply because they want to do only a quick search and not a full on study ,
LOL Seriously ??? that is nearly verbatim the very definition of the EXACT word that Paul used You are not even close !
Here is the very exact definition :
Harpazo IS the word that is used
Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch,
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
The story of Phillip baptism of the eunuch ,
notice that the words “caught away”
in verse 39 are in the Greek writing of Acts 8:39 is Harpazo – identically exactly the very same word used in Thessalonians where Paul speaks of the rapture of the whole church.
39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
in a split second as they come up out of the water Phillip is raptured -caught away -harpazo and taken to a city 30 miles away in a mere split second of time. , God snatched Phillip and placed him in a city 30 miles away .
ἥρπασεν is used in Acts 8:39
ἁρπαγησόμεθα ,,,
harpazo....harpagēsometha
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g726
The form of #726 is used in both Acts 8 and 1 Thess 4 .. there are various spellings , but are interchangeable and mean the same thing- to be snatched away with Force ,Unexpectedly and without warning
some definitions say violent force , as in snatching away money out of someones hand
Wrong - your post is invalid and you need to actually study what scripture really says ad means
Considering I made no other point other than that many people aren't citing anything and then attacking others...why would there be any scripture to that? Also I think you took my post personally, considering it was a generalized statement regarding the actions of people on the whole.Obvious there is no scripture evidence in your post , so your post is invalid - I put scripture in my other posts
Before that vision is revealed to John - John himself was caught up in Revelation 4.
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee hereafter.
things which must be "hereafter" the rapture? Or hereafter into the future? Or hereafter to the rest of Revelation?
John was in the state of being in the Spirit in chapter 1. The only person John saw in the first three chapters was Jesus.Did John travel physically to heaven at that time?
Nothing about unexpected there is there?
Nothing about unexpected there is there?
The Rapture isn't unexpected in the slightest. Paul tells us what events to watch for to know when the return of Christ and the rapture will be coming so not a surprise to anyone involved.
When you say this , it seems that you do not realize that the thread is about the rapture , and IF you were to put forth any effort at all to study the topic , you would then find that the rapture is the very word that is used in scripture when God "moving people around " the doctrine of the rapture if it really be called a doctrine is quite literally God moving people from one place to another place , to where HE sees fit to move them, I was making the point that in the first sentence of your previous post you said there is no rapture and it was created for people who fear - and that is without any doubt 100% FALSE ---IF you would have studied ,you would know it is scripture that Jesus will Harpazo people to where ever He wants them and He will Harpazo us up into the air to be with HIM Forever and that is a BLESSING.
Here is one Scripture, showing God can "caught away" or move people instantly. The Father is all powerful he can do anything, was not the topic though, as the doctrine of the "rapture" is much more then if God is physically capable of moving people around.
We don't have a date for the resurrection/rapture. But Paul continuing in 1Thessalonians 5 did indicate that the resurrection/rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins. The resurrection/rapture is in verses 9-11.So to the question; when is the "rapture" of 1Thessalonians 4:17?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Discuss please..........
1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The answer will depend on who you ask, pre trib post trib - the answer will be found by First having a deep though comprehensive understanding of WHY a rapture will happen and WHY there is a Great Tribulation HOUR OF TRIAL - that Jesus speaks about as it is a very specific period of time that Jesus has assignedThis occurs at the Lord's coming, no?
.
It is puzzling how and why people get so focused on what happened to John - if he physically went into heaven or not - it doesn't matter
Simple question - show any scripture that shows for certain that any person that was a born again Christian PRIOR TO as in Before the GT begins , goes through the GT - you will not find anything at all that evens suggests it - all you can find is people that after the GT has begun and AFTER 2Thess2 has happened there are people that did not believe that realized their error and then chose to accept Christ as savoir , and they are those you find later on in Revelation as martyrsIt matters to those who are promoting the pretrib doctrine.
They claim the Church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 4, when John is called up to heaven.
.
the answer will be found by First having a deep though comprehensive understanding of WHY a rapture will happen and WHY there is a Great Tribulation HOUR OF TRIAL - that Jesus speaks about as it is a very specific period of time that Jesus has assigned
..No scripture
..no Scripture
...no scripture
...no scripture
...no Scripture
….no Scripture
Here is one Scripture, showing God can "caught away" or move people instantly. The Father is all powerful he can do anything, was not the topic though, as the doctrine of the "rapture" is much more then if God is physically capable of moving people around.
….and no Scripture, I do not want to say you lied. But by the facts, no Scripture was shown in any of your posts to support the "rapture" doctrine. But good job on showing God is powerful enough to move someone from one place to another.
But Paul continuing in 1Thessalonians 5 did indicate that the resurrection/rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins. The resurrection/rapture is in verses 9-11.
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