Oh? I was under the impression that the reason fewer people subscribe to Darby's ideas these days is because it was mostly a Boomer thing.It is dispensation theology introduced by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century. A majority of Christians follow his teachings however there are a few coming out of this , as seemingly you are.
ewq1938 said in post #314:
And what did Paul say must happen first before Jesus would return?
Southernscotty said in post #85:
Look at the Jewish wedding tradition as this is the perfect model.
The Bridegroom finds the bride, [That will preach] goes home to prepare a place for them [Build a house] and then when it is finished, He returns for His bride and takes her away.
Southernscotty said in post #85:
Why would Jesus pick His bride and let her be tormented and abused?
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
The doctrine of a pre-trib removal of the Church (Rapture) permeated the early Church.
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
It is confusing or non accepting for many due to several reasons.
1. Replacement theology which teaches the Church replaces Israel. (It doesn't)
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
2. Dual hermenutics . Taking scripture spiritually at times and literally at others .
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
3. Not taking the earthly 1,000 reign of Christ literally.
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
4. Confusion about the resurrection of the just .
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
5. Confusion about the wheat and tares.
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
6. Confusion about the Lord meeting the Church in the air/ clouds with The Second Coming of Christ where He literally sets foot on the
Mount of Olives.
Two separate, marvelous, awesome, distinct events which have not come to pass YET.
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
7. Not realizing the calendar and order of events that is to come.
ItIsFinished! said in post #93:
At this present juncture , the next event on God's calendar is the removal of The Church, which can happened at any moment.
Devin P said in post #94:
We must be destroyed, so that we can be raised again, in an incorruptible body.
BibleloverBill said in post #155:
So many are not ready for the future events that are clearly stated in the New Testament.
BibleloverBill said in post #156:
I am ready for whatever God does in stopping the Age of Grace.
ItIsFinished! said in post #168:
The last trump in 1st Corinthians 15:52 therefore isn't the same as in the Book of Revelation.
ItIsFinished! said in post #168:
All the trumps in Revelation are Angelic Trumpets.
The Trump in 1st Corinthians 15:52 is the Trump of God.
Northwest Savant said in post #178:
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is the writer of Against Heresies. On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”
Northwest Savant said in post #178:
Saint Ephraim the Syrian (306 AD – 373 AD) is possibly the writer of Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraim. The opinions of scholars are divided on the origins of this apocalypse, but as for the historical implications of showing that the teaching of the Rapture event pre-dates 150 years ago, the latest date of the manuscript is the early 7th century. In this writing:
"See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
Northwest Savant said in post #178:
There is no doubt that early Christian writings existed prior to 150 years ago professing a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture.
Scripture does not confirm this view. There is one time of resurrection for the righteous, and one time for the unrighteous.
Wrong.
Absolutely impossible.
Do you believe in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth?
That is completely false.Even though in that passage, Irenaeus (or maybe only the translator) uses the words from Matthew 24:21, Irenaeus, in the language of his original manuscript, may have actually quoted, or may have been thinking of, the differently timed, yet similar sounding, Daniel 12:1-3, which refers to the time of the resurrection of the Church into physical immortality at the post-tribulation, Second-Coming time of the defeat of the future Antichrist (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
For Irenaeus connects his quoted "tribulation" reference to the time when "the righteous" will be "crowned with incorruption", that is, resurrected or changed into incorruptible/immortal physical bodies. And no people can be called "the righteous" (cf. Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no people who have that faith are outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And the people who will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into incorruptible/immortal physical bodies at Jesus' future, Second Coming (when he will defeat the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast": Revelation 19:20), will be the Church of all times (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
So in the passage from Irenaeus, the "tribulation" referred to by him could be only Daniel 11:45 to 12:3's post-tribulation, Second-Coming time of trouble which will come upon the future Antichrist and the world's armies at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church of all times will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into physical immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), and then caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
Regarding Amos 5:18 being quoted in Pseudo Ephraem, note that Amos 5:18-20 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Amos 5:18-20 is addressing the ancient northern kingdom of Israel (Amos 5:1,4-6,21-27), before God brought punishment and defeat to it (Amos 2:6,14-16, Amos 3:1 to 5:27) in 722 BC, at the hands of the Assyrians, who took Israel into captivity into Assyria, "beyond Damascus" (Amos 5:27).
Also, when the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo Ephraem" says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he does not mean prior to the Tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the Biblical teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought that the first half of Matthew 24's Tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).
And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14,9,17], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There is no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows that the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
And in Section 4, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that some in the Church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he does not mean prior to Matthew 24's Tribulation. What he means is partially found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".
So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the future Antichrist and the world's armies by Jesus Christ Himself at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).
Note that nothing in the Bible or in any early-Church writings ever teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture.
That is completely false.
I already covered this several times .
Scripture and the ECF absolutely did teach a pre-trib rapture .
No friend.the 1000 years are literal -
But it is not where Christ reigns on Earth because Revelation 19 says all the wicked are killed when Christ returns - and John 14 says that when He returns he takes the saints with Him - back to heaven.
Nothing left here but a desolate Earth - as the OT prophets predicted.
That doesn't refute my position at all.Not true --
Matthew 24 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect".
I thought you were promoting a pre-trib gathering of the saints.. not post trib.That doesn't refute my position at all.
No friend.
The rapture is when the Groom (Christ) removes the Bride (The Church) .
No friend.
The Second Coming of Christ (when He literally sets foot on the Mount of Olives ) He brings us back.
I am.I thought you were promoting a pre-trib gathering of the saint.. not post trib.
The Rapture, the Bride (The Church) meet the Lord in the air/clouds. The Lord takes us away.
That is NOT promoting a post-trib at all
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