Is the perpetual virginity of Mary made up?

prodromos

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It is more important to have your views align with Scriptures; than to align scriptures to align with your views. Such is the case here. I have proposed an idea supported by scriptures, because scriptures are where I get the idea from.
Your views do not align with Mary's response to the archangel, nor do they align with the attitude Jesus's brothers had towards Him, nor do they align with Jesus placing His mother in the care of the apostle John. Thus, what you propose is not supported by Scripture as you claim, whereas the traditional view is.
Nowhere have I seen the perpetual virginity of Mary inside of Scriptures. If you can, I'd still like to see it.
You interpret Scripture according to the novel Protestant tradition you have inherited, thus you are unable to see what is plainly there.
Because twisting words to suit a particular point of view is not coherent with biblical teaching. It is only found outside and supported by outside sources.
I can only presume you are accusing me of twisting words. I have done nothing of the sort.
I propose this Roman tradition of perpetual virginity is where it originated from for the purpose of promoting an idea acceptable to the early church to attempt to alleviate persecution. As really no evidence for the perpetual nature is presented.
There is absolutely no evidence the Church tried to avoid persecution. Rather they accepted it with patience and joy because they knew they were storing up riches in heaven.
Due to influence, this was a question (perpetualism) raised later and addressed at the counsels and by decree issued, set in stone what to believe concerning this matter.
It was never a question raised, in fact it was not in dispute at all except for a few individuals who decided they could interpret Scripture for themselves.
As per the "church authority" superseding the scriptures, one clearly sees how the truth gets thrown under the bus after an idea such as this is recycled and recycled to the doctrine of today. Whereas scripture clearly refutes the church's infallible nature, as Jesus Christ is the rock. The church is built upon that rock. The church isn't the rock itself.
The Scriptures call the Church, the "pillar and ground of truth".
Many times in the O.T. we see Israel adopt traditions of the foreign influence to which they were under. Since all of Judaea was under Rome's influence at the time of Jesus, it is quite possible.
Israel, in the Old Testament, did not have the Holy Spirit, and history records that the early Christians preferred to suffer martyrdom than to accept teaching which they had not received.
And worthy of note, the Temple of Vesta, for which the Vestal Virgins were named, existed until 391, then in that year was it abolished, the practice in 394.
Not really worthy of note, since you cannot demonstrate a historical link between Vestal virgins and the Church teaching regarding the ever virginity of Mary. As I have already pointed out, and you have not attempted to address, churches that were established very early and well outside the influence of Rome, all profess the ever virginity of Mary.
 
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You interpret Scripture according to the novel Protestant tradition you have inherited, thus you are unable to see what is plainly there.

The idea that Jesus was born normally like us and that Jesus had brothers after the flesh (same mother, different father) was argued for at the very beginnings of Christianity against the heretical position of an abnormal birth of some sort (baby appears at Mary's side and she retains the afterbirth per PoJ).
 
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MyGivenNameIsKeith

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Your views do not align with Mary's response to the archangel, nor do they align with the attitude Jesus's brothers had towards Him, nor do they align with Jesus placing His mother in the care of the apostle John. Thus, what you propose is not supported by Scripture as you claim, whereas the traditional view is.

You interpret Scripture according to the novel Protestant tradition you have inherited, thus you are unable to see what is plainly there.

I can only presume you are accusing me of twisting words. I have done nothing of the sort.

There is absolutely no evidence the Church tried to avoid persecution. Rather they accepted it with patience and joy because they knew they were storing up riches in heaven.

It was never a question raised, in fact it was not in dispute at all except for a few individuals who decided they could interpret Scripture for themselves.

The Scriptures call the Church, the "pillar and ground of truth".

Israel, in the Old Testament, did not have the Holy Spirit, and history records that the early Christians preferred to suffer martyrdom than to accept teaching which they had not received.

Not really worthy of note, since you cannot demonstrate a historical link between Vestal virgins and the Church teaching regarding the ever virginity of Mary. As I have already pointed out, and you have not attempted to address, churches that were established very early and well outside the influence of Rome, all profess the ever virginity of Mary.
Jesus said upon this Rock I will build my church, he was talking about himself. Interpreted, he was the Word of God, a.k.a. Scriptures. The church is built upon scriptures. Scriptures are not built upon the church. While Mary may have been a godly woman, she was in no way to be regarded as different from any other. Her works in no way made her worthy to be prayed to. To pray to her to intercede on our behalf, is useless, as she does not have power to intercede in heaven. It's not her court. To somehow deify her for bringing Jesus into the world according to flesh, is to put her in a position that it was of her own doing that brought him into the world only and not God's grace. Or like the Spirit had nothing to do with it. It's like praying to the Earth itself and asking Earth to intercede because the Earth is the dirt that made up the flesh that Jesus had when he walked here.
The Roman Empire and the practice of the Vestal Virgins was long established before Christianity. The Roman Empire at the time of Christ spanned the entire Mediterranean, dwarfing any ideals you may have concerning the beginning of Christianity being outside the oversight of Rome. It was directly in it. Pontius Pilate was Roman. Paul was a Roman citizen. The creation of the Vestals sect is attributed to a king who reigned from 717-673 B.C. (a full 700 years before Christ) and the sect ending in 394 A.D. Their college or temple was even referred to at times as "heaven" and associated with Palatine Hill, where their sacred fire was housed.
As Paul addressed all those in Rome in the book of Romans, Acts and several other places, and the fact that the Roman Empire never really truly went away, some retaining the title given by the pope of Holy Roman Emperor as late as the 1500's (Charles 5th). As the Vestals, were state supported priestesses, the correlation is easily made if seen in a spiritual manner. As a state supported religion Christianity became in 325 superseding the older practices of Rome. Even their practice of mola salsa was superimposed upon the Lord's Supper. Notwithstanding, the Lord's supper is holy in it's own right, but the Vestals are one pagan exercise that was adopted and merged with Christianity to produce abominable offerings the Lord. I have no reservations about Political Party Denomination nonsense with which people seem so eager to murder their brethren. Protestant or otherwise. I seek the Lord with my whole heart. I defend my faith and call for repentance. I teach the Word of God, I study it, I apply it, and no one comes to the Father except through Christ. Not even Mary herself. Though there is lessons to be learned from her story, it is not through a pagan philosophy brought on through the Roman Empire.

That being said, I study the scriptures constantly and see no scriptures referring to or implying the perpetual virginity of Mary. No tradition taught me this, nor do I somehow inherit this. I can read quite well. It's just not there. If I am missing it, please refer to it.

And as far as "inheriting" a tradition? Every other response you make concerns some "traditional view". I'm not catholic. I don't adhere to "traditions of men". And yes I am saying you are twisting words, because you are taking every little jot and tittle that I say and breaking it apart to conjugate some idea that doesn't exist in scriptures.

As I'm attempting to have you see the folly of worshipping and praying to saints and Mary in place of God the Father and his son Jesus Christ, I will divulge the name calling and back and forth banter no longer. I proposed it, so answer it, or don't. I read the bible, the perpetual virginity of Mary isn't in it Nor is praying to saints. I think that the Vestals are where it came from, though I don't know. I proposed it so that we can settle it, dismiss it, and worship God as he should be worshipped. This has been like a democrat fighting a republican I swear. makes one beat their head against a wall.
 
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prodromos

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Jesus said upon this Rock I will build my church, he was talking about himself. Interpreted, he was the Word of God, a.k.a. Scriptures.
Jesus is God the Word, not the Word of God (Scriptures). What you have claimed here is ludicrous.
The church is built upon scriptures. Scriptures are not built upon the church.
The Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written. The Scriptures are a product of the Church (Christ's body), not the other way around.
I'm going to bed now as I start work early tomorrow and won't have time to respond more, but I couldn't let that nonsense pass.
 
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-snip- I think that the Vestals are where it came from, though I don't know. -snip-

Most likely there was a relationship between the Vestal Virgins and ever-virgin, though not as you might imagine.

The vestal virgins of Rome began about 700 BCE and lasted until about 400 CE. They were the priestesses, offering fire, sacrifices, to a god. But the point is they could eventually marry after their 30-year term. It wasn't a life-long position. Few apparently did make that choice however given they had been "married" to Vesta. But they could.

For some, therefore the idea of a true and actual perpetual virgin, even in the act of giving birth, let alone throughout her whole life, implied a more chaste, more holy, more religious, more near deity, status. One who committed her whole life, not just a mere 30 years. Thus, this attitude is one source of who some call the Queen of Heaven, the ever-virgin Mary.

Vestal Virgin
 
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