Is the kingdom of heaven in our universe?

[TzephanYahu]

Hi @rturner76

Where is heaven? Is it a place or a state of being etc? Where is Jesus' physical body residing right now? Does the Father choose a physical form or does he just communicate through Christ in heaven? Will he just be present in our abiding souls?

Great questions.

First of all, "heaven" is the name given to the firmament structure by Yahweh in Genesis 1:8. But the firmament or Heaven isn't just one structure, but one of several.

Paul talks about ascending to the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2. In ancient writings not included in the Bible, such as the Ascension of Isaiah and the Apocalypse of Abraham, they describe a total of seven firmaments, or seven heavens. Picture this reflected in the imagery of a Rainbow, for ease of understanding. Yahweh, the Creator, resides in the highest heaven of course - making Him the Most High.

The Messiah physical body is at right hand of the Father, as I understand it from Scripture. That might be literal and figurative, as we are also told in Hebrews that He serves as the High Priest before Yahweh mediating for the saints in the original Temple in the highest heaven.

As for whether the Father has a physical form or not, I really don't know how to answer that one. He is described with physical characteristics in the Scripture, but whether it's "physical" as you and I know it, I have no idea. After all, He is above His Creation and not part of it - if that makes any sense.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Just present abiding in our souls". If you mean is Yahweh no longer in Heaven but in us, then yes and no. He is most definitely in Heaven at the moment and will soon descend to earth to live with the chosen in the New Jerusalem, as prophesied. But He does dwell in the saints as well...

If you remember how the first Temple was filled with the presence of Yahweh, I think it's something similar to this. Yahweh was there in the Temple and it was called by His name, yet Yahweh Himself wasn't there directly, rather "His presence" was.

How the early church leaders used to explain was: God above all, Christ in all, Spirit through all. So it seems there is a spiritual-tethering property in the saints which connects them to Yahweh and Yahweh to them. But "physically" Yahweh is enthroned above the Heavens, for now, as I understand it.

I hope that helps in some way.

Peace.

 

[Bee_Brian]

Hi @rturner76



Great questions.

First of all, "heaven" is the name given to the firmament structure by Yahweh in Genesis 1:8. But the firmament or Heaven isn't just one structure, but one of several.

Paul talks about ascending to the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2. In ancient writings not included in the Bible, such as the Ascension of Isaiah and the Apocalypse of Abraham, they describe a total of seven firmaments, or seven heavens. Picture this reflected in the imagery of a Rainbow, for ease of understanding. Yahweh, the Creator, resides in the highest heaven of course - making Him the Most High.

The Messiah physical body is at right hand of the Father, as I understand it from Scripture. That might be literal and figurative, as we are also told in Hebrews that He serves as the High Priest before Yahweh mediating for the saints in the original Temple in the highest heaven.

As for whether the Father has a physical form or not, I really don't know how to answer that one. He is described with physical characteristics in the Scripture, but whether it's "physical" as you and I know it, I have no idea. After all, He is above His Creation and not part of it - if that makes any sense.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Just present abiding in our souls". If you mean is Yahweh no longer in Heaven but in us, then yes and no. He is most definitely in Heaven at the moment and will soon descend to earth to live with the chosen in the New Jerusalem, as prophesied. But He does dwell in the saints as well...

If you remember how the first Temple was filled with the presence of Yahweh, I think it's something similar to this. Yahweh was there in the Temple and it was called by His name, yet Yahweh Himself wasn't there directly, rather "His presence" was.

How the early church leaders used to explain was: God above all, Christ in all, Spirit through all. So it seems there is a spiritual-tethering property in the saints which connects them to Yahweh and Yahweh to them. But "physically" Yahweh is enthroned above the Heavens, for now, as I understand it.

I hope that helps in some way.

Peace.

This is good stuff.

That's really all I can say. It smacks of truth.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is what the world really is:

Now, are you going to accept God's word, or believe the lying signs and wonders of the devil? You can't have the Babylonian theoretical water-baal earth gyrating through near-endless space, and God's fixed flat enclosed earth as described in scripture (and proven by science). Choose this day whom you will follow.

 

[d taylor]

This is what the world really is:

Now, are you going to accept God's word, or believe the lying signs and wonders of the devil? You can't have the Babylonian theoretical water-baal earth gyrating through near-endless space, and God's fixed flat enclosed earth as described in scripture (and proven by science). Choose this day whom you will follow.

satan and science has done a good job of hiding heaven and God from many. I guess it may be kind of scary to know that God is just above their head looking down on His creation every second of life.

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,​

And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.​

Paul went to the third heaven, so he knows how far it is and he states God is not far from us.

so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

 

[Shrewd Manager]

satan and science has done a good job of hiding heaven and God from many. I guess it may be kind of scary to know that God is just above their head looking down on His creation every second of life.

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.​

It's been rightly called one of satan's 'blue ribbon' lies. They just keep plopping rockets into the sea off Cape Canaveral and giving us CGI and bad actornots.

And to this day still not one physical proof of the alleged motion or curvature of earth.

Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? (Acts 7:49)

Paul went to the third heaven, so he knows how far it is and he states God is not far from us.

so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Nothing in the Bible makes sense if considering the relationship between heaven and earth through the lens of 'modern cosmology': no absolute direction, no standard of rest, no centre, everything relative and metaphorical and inconceivably formless and materially infinite. But with the love of Christ, we:

May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; (Eph 3:18)

 

[NomNomPizza]

Wasn't quite sure where to ask this question but.........

Christ's physical body ascended to heaven. Did he go to a different plane of existence or did he rise to a place in the universe we haven't learned how to reach?

It seems like when the Bible was written, heaven was just up in the clouds stars/constellations etc. Hell was just considered down below I guess.

The Zoroastrians were able to predict the time and place of Christ's birth using astronomy. There may be some lost knowledge about how the universe works out there. As the ancient libraries of the world digitize their stock, new information is constantly being found about all kinds of topics. So many ancient libraries were raised to the ground even back in the days B.C. I'm sure we have lost some insightful information over the millennia.

It just made me wonder what my fellow Christians have heard or read that can shed light on the questions at hand.

Where is heaven? Is it a place or a state of being etc? Where is Jesus' physical body residing right now? Does the Father choose a physical form or does he just communicate through Christ in heaven? Will he just be present in our abiding souls?

I feel like that kid asking impossible questions in Sunday school.

God is on throne literally above ur head with Jesus

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Wasn't quite sure where to ask this question but.........

Christ's physical body ascended to heaven. Did he go to a different plane of existence or did he rise to a place in the universe we haven't learned how to reach?

It seems like when the Bible was written, heaven was just up in the clouds stars/constellations etc. Hell was just considered down below I guess.

The Zoroastrians were able to predict the time and place of Christ's birth using astronomy. There may be some lost knowledge about how the universe works out there. As the ancient libraries of the world digitize their stock, new information is constantly being found about all kinds of topics. So many ancient libraries were raised to the ground even back in the days B.C. I'm sure we have lost some insightful information over the millennia.

It just made me wonder what my fellow Christians have heard or read that can shed light on the questions at hand.

Where is heaven? Is it a place or a state of being etc? Where is Jesus' physical body residing right now? Does the Father choose a physical form or does he just communicate through Christ in heaven? Will he just be present in our abiding souls?

I feel like that kid asking impossible questions in Sunday school.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth said "The Kingdom of God is not of this world."

 

[d taylor]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth said "The Kingdom of God is not of this world."

If you are speaking about John 18:36 this statement by Jesus was made after Israel had rejected Jesus as The promised Messiah (Matthew 12).

So when Israel rejected Jesus as The Messiah, they also rejected The offer of The Messianic Kingdom, Jesus would have set up after His Death and Resurrection.

The Israelites were looking for the Kingdom of God and wanted it to come, they just failed to recognized Jesus as The Messiah, which was part of receiving The Kingdom.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If you are speaking about John 18:36 this statement by Jesus was made after Israel had rejected Jesus as The promised Messiah (Matthew 12).

So when Israel rejected Jesus as The Messiah, they also rejected The offer of The Messianic Kingdom, Jesus would have set up after His Death and Resurrection.

The Israelites were looking for the Kingdom of God and wanted it to come, they just failed to recognized Jesus as The Messiah, which was part of receiving The Kingdom.

It does not change the fact that His Kingdom is not of this world.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I feel like that kid asking impossible questions in Sunday school.

If you look at the Bible

The Kingdom of heaven is:

1) Within us (If a believer)
2) In our midst (believers assembled together)
3) Yet to come (God will bring about a new Earth, new Jerusalem etc. after he judges the living and the dead)
4) In Heaven where the rule of God reigns.

 

[paul1149]

There's a difference between Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven. Heaven is a place. The jurisdiction of the Kingdom of God is being established on Earth, and from the Earth to other places. One day New Jerusalem will descend out of Heaven onto the Earth, joining the two in intimate union, AISI.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. - Rev 21:2​

I've always thought of Heaven as being in a spiritual dimension. Lately I heard someone say it's a planet, though, and that got me thinking. It's intriguing, but I don't understand how the universe would have been created in that case, unless Heaven was relocated to a physical place within it.

 

[BobRyan]

Wasn't quite sure where to ask this question but.........

Christ's physical body ascended to heaven. Did he go to a different plane of existence or did he rise to a place in the universe we haven't learned how to reach?

It seems like when the Bible was written, heaven was just up in the clouds stars/constellations etc. Hell was just considered down below I guess.

The Zoroastrians were able to predict the time and place of Christ's birth using astronomy. There may be some lost knowledge about how the universe works out there. As the ancient libraries of the world digitize their stock, new information is constantly being found about all kinds of topics. So many ancient libraries were raised to the ground even back in the days B.C. I'm sure we have lost some insightful information over the millennia.

It just made me wonder what my fellow Christians have heard or read that can shed light on the questions at hand.

Where is heaven? Is it a place or a state of being etc? Where is Jesus' physical body residing right now? Does the Father choose a physical form or does he just communicate through Christ in heaven? Will he just be present in our abiding souls?

I feel like that kid asking impossible questions in Sunday school.

"Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven" Matt 6:10 - God's kingdom is not "yet" on Earth but one day in the future will be.

Yes - in our universe which is the only universe and includes things visible to the eye (a rock for example) and not visible to the (forces like gravity)

2 Cor 12:1-3 there are 3 heavens. The first heaven is the one in Genesis 1 "Where birds fly in the midst" of the heavens. The second heaven is space where the sun and moon and stars are. The third heaven is where God's throne is which is also in our Universe.

 

[rturner76]

If you look at the Bible

The Kingdom of heaven is:

1) Within us (If a believer)
2) In our midst (believers assembled together)
3) Yet to come (God will bring about a new Earth, new Jerusalem etc. after he judges the living and the dead)
4) In Heaven where the rule of God reigns.

Thank you for showing us the different ways the Bible describes the kingdom of heaven.

 

[rturner76]

"Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven" Matt 6:10 - God's kingdom is not "yet" on Earth but one day in the future will be.

Yes - in our universe which is the only universe and includes things visible to the eye (a rock for example) and not visible to the (forces like gravity)

2 Cor 12:1-3 there are 3 heavens. The first heaven is the one in Genesis 1 "Where birds fly in the midst" of the heavens. The second heaven is space where the sun and moon and stars are. The third heaven is where God's throne is which is also in our Universe.

So you are saying we exist in the same universe on different planes of existence? Where is Jesus' physical body reside right now? Among the stars in heaven or right where we are but in a different layer of reality so to speak? If we had the technology, could we possibly meet up in the future kingdom of heaven or will it be more of a spiritual ethereal experience? Has God hid these things from the living?

I realize these are existential answers that must be discerned from the word we have. The Bible doesn't get into physics or chemistry in a modern conventional way so we are speaking in terms not known by Bible writers.

A side question. Though what I believe is called theosis, Orthodox Christians believe that we can have a spiritual experience with God while we are still living if we get develop our theosis

"As a process of transformation, theosis is brought about by the effects of catharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria ('illumination' with the 'vision' of God). According to Eastern Christian teachings, theosis is very much the purpose of human life. It is considered achievable only through synergy (or cooperation) of human activity and God's uncreated energies (or operations)."
-Wikipedia

Roman Catholics and most Protestants believe we must first die before we are able to experience the physical presence of God.

Do you believe we can have a physical experience with God while living in our corporal bodies on Earth? Do we need to cross over to have a physical experience with God?

*These questions are for anybody, not just the one I'm responding to.

Not trying to convince anyone one way or another. I just think about some of these things and my friends look at me like I just threw up when I ask things like this sometimes.

 

[adderbolt]

"The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up" - Revelation 6.

What's behind the scroll/curtain?

 

[chad kincham]

Wasn't quite sure where to ask this question but.........

Christ's physical body ascended to heaven. Did he go to a different plane of existence or did he rise to a place in the universe we haven't learned how to reach?

It seems like when the Bible was written, heaven was just up in the clouds stars/constellations etc. Hell was just considered down below I guess.

The Zoroastrians were able to predict the time and place of Christ's birth using astronomy. There may be some lost knowledge about how the universe works out there. As the ancient libraries of the world digitize their stock, new information is constantly being found about all kinds of topics. So many ancient libraries were raised to the ground even back in the days B.C. I'm sure we have lost some insightful information over the millennia.

It just made me wonder what my fellow Christians have heard or read that can shed light on the questions at hand.

Where is heaven? Is it a place or a state of being etc? Where is Jesus' physical body residing right now? Does the Father choose a physical form or does he just communicate through Christ in heaven? Will he just be present in our abiding souls?

I feel like that kid asking impossible questions in Sunday school.

I can tell you that Gods kingdom is going to be on the new earth, in the city New Jerusalem which will descend down from heaven, and God plus Jesus will dwell there forever.

See Revelation chapters 21 and 22 which cross references with Zechariah chapter 14.

God currently dwells in the third heaven, so there are three layers: the atmosphere, then space, then whatever is beyond space.

 

[chad kincham]

I'm surprised at the number of posts suggesting a different dimension, but I agree on many levels. Just the addition of one more spatial dimension would explain many of the miracles Christ performed - walking on water, appearing in the midst of a cube (room) without coming through any of its sides. Even John's logic that we'll be like Christ because we'll see him as he is suggests we'll become beings of the same dimensions Christ is of (1 John 3:2). If that's true, the kingdom of God may be all around us, just not perceivable to us (yet).

I’d say the miracles of Jesus are explainable because Jesus created the physical universe and everything in it, and thus has total control over it.

 

[hedrick]

While the discussion is responding to what the OP was probably thinking about, I have to protest the way the question was worded. The "Kingdom of heaven" is by definition on earth. First, Matthew is following Jewish convention, in which one avoids saying God. "Heaven" was commonly used as a placeholder for God. The other Gospels use the phrase "Kingdom of God" in exactly the same contexts. It means God's rule. Jesus says it's his purpose to bring it, and the Lord's prayer asks us to pray for it to come.

The "Kingdom of God" is really God's rule. Of course God rules in "heaven" (whatever that is -- and that's what the discussion has been). When Jesus talks about the Kingdom of God he's talking about bringing God's rule about on earth. That's what Christians are challenged to do.

 

[chad kincham]

It's been rightly called one of satan's 'blue ribbon' lies. They just keep plopping rockets into the sea off Cape Canaveral and giving us CGI and bad actornots.

And to this day still not one physical proof of the alleged motion or curvature of earth.

Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? (Acts 7:49)



Nothing in the Bible makes sense if considering the relationship between heaven and earth through the lens of 'modern cosmology': no absolute direction, no standard of rest, no centre, everything relative and metaphorical and inconceivably formless and materially infinite. But with the love of Christ, we:

May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; (Eph 3:18)

Nothing in the Bible says the earth is flat and that belief in a fixed planet is required.

And there is plenty of evidence that the earth is a round, spinning globe that orbits the sun.

 

[chad kincham]

It does not change the fact that His Kingdom is not of this world.

That was true of His first coming. When He returns He sets up a physical kingdom on earth that will never end.