shernren said:
Critias, where does the Bible say that there is an immortal soul? I am most curious, since I stopped believing that some time ago finding that there was little or no Biblical evidence for it. The idea of an immortal spirit renting a mortal body is an ancient Greek belief that in fact inspired the Gnostic heresy, which made statements like God couldn't have been incarnated since matter is evil, physical sins like pornography and fornication don't matter since the body is evil anyway, asceticism is the best way to holiness since it gets rid of the influence of matter which is evil ...
Ecclesiates 12:7
The body dies, the soul returns to where it came from. As I said the soul doesn't die like the body does. Clarification probably was needed for where I said it won't die. I meant that it won't die as the body dies. The body will cease to be no more and Christ will give us spiritual bodies upon the resurrection. The Bible doesn't talk about the soul dying like the body does, but rather says it departs from the body.
shernren said:
To be honest I would be the first to admit that the Bible is (deliberately?) unclear about precisely what happens to the person in the afterlife, whether righteous or wicked. We know for sure that the righteous enjoy eternal bliss while the wicked, eternal perdition; what exactly these conditions entail are not made very clear, however. In some places hell is described as burning fire, in others as outer darkness (but how can fire be dark? Doesn't fire produce light?), and if one takes the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man literally there may even be interaction to an extent between the eternally blessed and the eternally suffering. Nevertheless this is my synthesis of whatever small clues there are in the Bible. I am relatively sure this is the best synthesis I can come up with; though I am sure that I am probably wrong in some way or another.
I can't directly tell you your opinion on something is wrong because it is your opinion.
I would agree that the Bible is not specific about what goes on when we die. Obviously we don't need, but rather trust and have faith.
I personally don't see the Rich Man parable to be a literal account of something that happened. I see it to be a parable because Luke starts it off like he does other parables.
shernren said:
(And yes, most of this comes from 1 Corinthians 15. Interesting passage. Wonder why we don't baptize the dead today.
)
Firstly, we know for sure that the destiny of
both believer and unbeliever are eternal. We also know that these destinies involve bodily interaction with their surroundings (new city, lake of fire, etc.) and therefore we come to a conclusion firstly that both believer and unbeliever have eternal bodies. The question is what bodies will they have? This is the main focus of Paul's 1 Corinthians 15. I believe that the wicked and the righteous will have the same
kind of body (and hence, Jesus's death and resurrection cannot be for the purpose of making available to us the spiritual resurrection alone), but the same kind of body to
different destinies.
I don't know if we can say for certain that there is a bodily interaction for those who denied Christ. Do you have specific verses you are refering to? I do think all will be resurrected, but only those in Christ will receive the bodies Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 15. I believe that because Paul is specifically talking about those in Christ.
I don't agree with your belief/opinion that all will receive incorruptable and immortal bodies, whether they accept Jesus or not.
If you take a further look into Paul's teachings, you will see that he says if there is no resurrection, then we are all to be the most pitied. And he is referring to Christians only. This is more about saying that if there is no resurrection then Jesus didn't raise from the dead like He said He would. So there is meaning in the resurrection as well in His death. It is my belief that on the Cross Christ shed His blood for the remission of our sins and at the resurrection He showed one that He is who said He is and that we too will partake in being resurrected as He was, incorruptable, imperishable, and immortal.
shernren said:
Why do I say that? 1 Cor 15:52 has "the
dead will be raised incorruptible" - I take that to mean the dead, both wicked and righteous. The word "incorruptible" seems ambiguous to me, since it is even translated "sincerity" in Ephesians 6:24 and Titus 2:7. I would take it to mean that all humanity will be "translated" into eternity, and thus will be given by God to all. But the wicked will carry these translated bodies to the second death - in that sense (alone?) their new bodies will be mortal i.e. subject to death (because the wicked choose to subject them to death), yet having the same nature as the bodies of the righteous. Whereas the new bodies of the righteous will not be subject to the second death because God forbids it from touching them again.
As I said, this is speculation to the highest degree, and I may not be aware of Scripture that contradicts my argument. I am here to be refuted and to learn.
1 Corinthians 15:52, I believe, is only talking about believers. If we put it into context, Paul is talking about those in Christ:
"50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
