shernren said:
Thank you. I will take a look at them.
shernren said:
Revelations 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarstheir place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
It's just that I'm not imaginative enough to imagine what fire, sulfur, and a lake are, other than physical means of torture. Plus of course, if you take the Lazarus parable to be literal, we can see that the Rich Man expected to be able to alleviate his torture with water - physical redress for physical torture.
It is quite possible that this is imagery to show what it will be like to be without God. God created the Lake of Fire as a place for the devil and his angels, a place where God has chosen to not be. So, I could imagine that in a place where God is not, would be absolutely horrible. Look at our world today, all the murder, rapes, molestations, sexual perversions, etc and God is still here.
A life without Him would be unbearable.
shernren said:
But all will be resurrected from death - it is just a matter of what we will be resurrected into: eternal glory or eternal damnation? Did Jesus accomplish only the first, or the second? I feel that there are two possible ways of looking at it:
I wasn't stating that only certain people will be resurrected but that the believers will receive a different body than non-believers. There is a first and second resurrection. Paul is talking about the first resurrection and that first resurrection is of believers, not unbelievers. So it would be a misinterpretation to say that it is all people, believers and unbelievers alike.
shernren said:
1. Maybe Paul was thinking of Jesus' work as a "second" resurrection and referring to it - as the first resurrection (of all) brings all back from the first death, the second resurrection which is our hope brings us who believe away from the second death. I admit that this is unlikely, but still possible.
Remember there are two resurrections that will take place, one of believers and then one of non-believers. The Bible does not talk about what bodies, if any the non-believers will receive. We assume they will receive bodies, but they could just be a gathering of souls. The point is we don't know. We do know what bodies believers will receive.
shernren said:
2. I think Paul was referring to the certainty of resurrection - "If we don't know what happens after death, we are to be most pitied ... " The effect of the resurrection is a certainty that justice will be served beyond the grave, with a good helping of grace for those who believe. The resurrection of Jesus Himself affirms that there is an afterlife and that Jesus who has come back from it is qualified to tell us about it and to consign us to it. (Paul pursues the second theme in his speech to the Areopagus - that Jesus is God's Judge, and God verified it by raising Him from the dead.)
I agree that Paul is mostly referring to the certainty of the resurrection. Many Corinthians were doubting and not believing there would be resurrection and Paul was correcting them. I don't agree that if don't know what happens after death then we are the most pitied. I believe Paul was stating this about Jesus, not us. That if He was not resurrected, then we are to be the most pitied because then Jesus didn't do what He said He would do. That would make Him a liar, and a false prophet.
shernren said:
I think we're disagreeing on definitions here. To me, if the body lasts for eternity it's immortal, and if it can stand an eternity of abuse and torture it's most definitely "imperishable"! And I believe the "incorruptibility" is not referring so much to the substance of the bodies themselves but rather to the purpose to which the bodies will be used - our new bodies will be "incorruptible" because no corruption i.e. sin will be allowed into them.
The Bible does not say whether non-believers will receive an immortal body or not. Imperishable just means immortal. So whether the unbelievers receive a body that lives forever, or they don't, the Bible does not say.
Incorrupt is to be without sin. I don't believe that the unbelievers will receive a body that is without sin.
Paul speaks of both, immortal and incorruptable, as what the believers will receive together in one body, the spiritual body that all believers will receive. Paul makes this point in 1 Corinthians connecting it with Jesus Christ and saying because of Christ we receive this.
This leads me to the conclusion that the people who rejected Christ won't receive Christ's gift because they don't want it.
shernren said:
Maybe the words mean different things to you? Though I won't try to presume exactly what.
Anyway to bring things back to the topic of the OP
thing is, we were arguing about the effect of the Fall upon man, and the role of Jesus' work in correcting it
for believers only. So if the effect of the Fall was physical death, why is this effect corrected for all?
I appreciate not taking the road to tell me what I think. It is a horrible tactic that just turns off the person you are speaking to. Thus, you will never be able to persuade them of anything, let alone even plant a seed.
Where does the Bible state that non-believers receive what believers receive as far as the physical goes? The Bible doesn't say, it is your assumption that thinks this.
One thing you can do is look to see what believers receive because they believed and you can know that non-believers most likely won't receive this because they rejected Christ. Unless of course you are a universalist?
But let me ask, if Adam and Eve stayed in the Garden - whether they were created immortal or mortal - would they have lived forever with eating the Tree of Life? The Bible says they would have, and that is the reason they couldn't go into the Garden after sinning.
So, the question is, is physical death part of their punishment for sin? They were barred from eating of the Tree of Life after all which the Bible says would have allowed them to live forever. So, are they now subjected to physical death?
