shernren
you are not reading this.
- Feb 17, 2005
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Hmm. We're going wayyyyy out of origins theology here. But it's nice having an excursion away from "you're a compromiser to today's science!" 
I think that it's mainly that you don't really understand what I mean by "holism" and are (hate to offend you but) still holding on to dualistic premises. Hope I can clarify my beliefs by addressing your questions.
First off I believe that the body ceases to be identifiable with the person once the person dies. For me the easiest (though that's not saying a lot) metaphor of this is the caterpillar's metamorphosis into a butterfly. When it emerges from the pupal stage, you have the separation of the chrysalis and the butterfly. Now, it would be absurd to say that the chrysalis is the "physical body" of the caterpillar, and the butterfly is the "invisible / spiritual soul" of the caterpillar, right? Instead we see that the butterfly is the caterpillar in its entirety - but a caterpillar that has undergone tremendous transformative change, changing from something ground-ridden to something that can fly, and has left behind a chrysalis in the process. In the same way, death isn't a soul leaving one body for another like terror drones in RA2 or someone migrating cross country. It is instead a person changing from an inhabitant of time, to an inhabitant of eternity, undergoing massive change and in the process leaving behind an empty husk that we bury or cremate. On to the specific questions.
I think that for the thief it was "today", while it may not have been "today" for Jesus. To me it seems that upon death the next thing the person experiences is the resurrection. Think about cryogenics. If I freeze a person today, 25th June 2005, and thaw him in 25th June 2010, to him both 25th June 2005 and 25th June 2010 are "today", in terms of his experience and memory. I believe that in a similar way a person who leaves time immediately experiences eternity. Imagine if someone martyred in 100 A.D. had to experience 19+ centuries worth of time before gaining his reward! The exception of course is that some people still have business in time after dying, for example Jesus when He appeared to His disciples after His resurrection, Samuel appearing to Saul and the Endor Witch, and Moses (and perhaps Elijah? was he "translated"?) at the Transfiguration.
So for me the solution is simple. The thief breathed his last, and next thing he knew he was in eternity - and in Jesus' presence and love! For him, then, he was in paradise with Jesus "that very day". And I personally hope it will be the same for all who believe!
I think experience in eternity is going to be very different from our experience of time. God doesn't see the world one second at a time one after another the way we do - He "sees" (saw? will see?) all time all at once. Why not believers already in eternity? Eternity is both "now, just now and later" for us who are still stuck in time. To me, they have already experienced the resurrection at the end of time with all of us, and are now outside time. The only difference is that they left time a little earlier.
Like the websites said. In both Hebrew and Greek, there's no exclusive word for "spirit/soul" but rather an adaptation of the concept of "breath" if I'm not mistaken. What Koheleth probably meant was that as God gives life, "breath", so life or "breath" returns to God once He wants it back. The person's "breath" isn't a symbol for "spirit", but simply for "life".
I don't think it is something that is Scripturally "clear". To me it's like the Trinity doctrine. You don't have the word in the Bible. You don't even have Bible verses that treat the doctrine. But all the "clues" are there: the Father and the Son in unity, the Spirit coming from both ... being baptized in the name of all three ... and from these mighty few clues you get the magnificent theological edifice that is the doctrine of the Trinity. And then when you read the Bible through Trinitarian eyes, suddenly you see Them everywhere instead of a few clues here and there. Holism is a little like that. You have traces of it here and there. But the key is that once you extract holism from the Jewish thought-form, and read the Bible through it, suddenly it becomes just plain right. You get rid of all that awkwardness that comes with the concept of the dispensable body.
And then we understand the Fall. It's not a question of whether it was a "physical" or a "spiritual" Fall. The Fall is the Fall, fullstop: it's about Adam and Eve (or whoever, whenever, individually or corporate) losing their life. Losing everything that defines the humanness of the living person: whether it is the health of their bodies, the sanity of their intellects, their love for fellow humans, or the holiness and righteousness that God desires.
I think that it's mainly that you don't really understand what I mean by "holism" and are (hate to offend you but) still holding on to dualistic premises. Hope I can clarify my beliefs by addressing your questions.First off I believe that the body ceases to be identifiable with the person once the person dies. For me the easiest (though that's not saying a lot) metaphor of this is the caterpillar's metamorphosis into a butterfly. When it emerges from the pupal stage, you have the separation of the chrysalis and the butterfly. Now, it would be absurd to say that the chrysalis is the "physical body" of the caterpillar, and the butterfly is the "invisible / spiritual soul" of the caterpillar, right? Instead we see that the butterfly is the caterpillar in its entirety - but a caterpillar that has undergone tremendous transformative change, changing from something ground-ridden to something that can fly, and has left behind a chrysalis in the process. In the same way, death isn't a soul leaving one body for another like terror drones in RA2 or someone migrating cross country. It is instead a person changing from an inhabitant of time, to an inhabitant of eternity, undergoing massive change and in the process leaving behind an empty husk that we bury or cremate. On to the specific questions.
I think that for the thief it was "today", while it may not have been "today" for Jesus. To me it seems that upon death the next thing the person experiences is the resurrection. Think about cryogenics. If I freeze a person today, 25th June 2005, and thaw him in 25th June 2010, to him both 25th June 2005 and 25th June 2010 are "today", in terms of his experience and memory. I believe that in a similar way a person who leaves time immediately experiences eternity. Imagine if someone martyred in 100 A.D. had to experience 19+ centuries worth of time before gaining his reward! The exception of course is that some people still have business in time after dying, for example Jesus when He appeared to His disciples after His resurrection, Samuel appearing to Saul and the Endor Witch, and Moses (and perhaps Elijah? was he "translated"?) at the Transfiguration.
So for me the solution is simple. The thief breathed his last, and next thing he knew he was in eternity - and in Jesus' presence and love! For him, then, he was in paradise with Jesus "that very day". And I personally hope it will be the same for all who believe!
I think experience in eternity is going to be very different from our experience of time. God doesn't see the world one second at a time one after another the way we do - He "sees" (saw? will see?) all time all at once. Why not believers already in eternity? Eternity is both "now, just now and later" for us who are still stuck in time. To me, they have already experienced the resurrection at the end of time with all of us, and are now outside time. The only difference is that they left time a little earlier.
Like the websites said. In both Hebrew and Greek, there's no exclusive word for "spirit/soul" but rather an adaptation of the concept of "breath" if I'm not mistaken. What Koheleth probably meant was that as God gives life, "breath", so life or "breath" returns to God once He wants it back. The person's "breath" isn't a symbol for "spirit", but simply for "life".
I don't think it is something that is Scripturally "clear". To me it's like the Trinity doctrine. You don't have the word in the Bible. You don't even have Bible verses that treat the doctrine. But all the "clues" are there: the Father and the Son in unity, the Spirit coming from both ... being baptized in the name of all three ... and from these mighty few clues you get the magnificent theological edifice that is the doctrine of the Trinity. And then when you read the Bible through Trinitarian eyes, suddenly you see Them everywhere instead of a few clues here and there. Holism is a little like that. You have traces of it here and there. But the key is that once you extract holism from the Jewish thought-form, and read the Bible through it, suddenly it becomes just plain right. You get rid of all that awkwardness that comes with the concept of the dispensable body.
And then we understand the Fall. It's not a question of whether it was a "physical" or a "spiritual" Fall. The Fall is the Fall, fullstop: it's about Adam and Eve (or whoever, whenever, individually or corporate) losing their life. Losing everything that defines the humanness of the living person: whether it is the health of their bodies, the sanity of their intellects, their love for fellow humans, or the holiness and righteousness that God desires.
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