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Is the Earth Flat?

Degrees of Earth flatness:

  • It's not flat. It's a giant, spinning spaceball.

    Votes: 90 82.6%
  • It's flat, but all the other planets are giant, spinning spaceballs.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It's flat, and a dome surrounds it.

    Votes: 5 4.6%
  • It's flat, a dome surrounds it, and the Earth is the center of the universe.

    Votes: 5 4.6%
  • It's flat, domed, and planets/stars are actually illusions/objects in the dome.

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • It's all of the above, and the government is covering it all up at the behest of Satan.

    Votes: 8 7.3%

  • Total voters
    109
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Thomas White

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True.



True.


Both the points that you made, that I agreed to be true... Only prove that if the skyscraper, and my thumb, were arranged in such a way that I could not see the skyscraper... as is the case with the sun and the moon...

So, there is no rays of sunlight going past the moon to create the affect the you need for the moon shadow to be smaller than the moon.

You don't need math to show that.

Anyway... Don't you think that this horse is dead?

Where would you expect the moon's shadow to be? For you to see the smaller shadow beyond the moon, there has to be something upon which the moon's shadow has been cast.
 
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prodromos

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Both the points that you made, that I agreed to be true... Only prove that if the skyscraper, and my thumb, were arranged in such a way that I could not see the skyscraper... as is the case with the sun and the moon...
Let me put it this way, if you move your thumb close to you eye, then you can move your eye up, down, left and right within the size of your thumb and you will still not see the skyscraper. if you move your thumb far enough away from your eye such that it only just obscures the skyscraper, then if you move your eye only a tiny amount in any direction you will be able to see part of the skyscraper. The moon's shadow during an eclipse corresponds to an area between those two extremes. If the moon only just blots out the sun then the shadow of the moon will be tiny, because as soon as the moon has moved a small amount, part of the sun will be visible and you are no longer in dark shadow. If the moon is a little closer to the earth such that it more than covers the sun then the shadow will be larger. The only way the moon's shadow could be the same size as the moon is if the moon and the earth were touching.
 
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JacksBratt

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Where would you expect the moon's shadow to be? For you to see the smaller shadow beyond the moon, there has to be something upon which the moon's shadow has been cast.
Sorry, I don't follow.
The moon shadow, on the earth, must be larger than the moon itself.. This is the case with all shadows.
 
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JacksBratt

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Let me put it this way, if you move your thumb close to you eye, then you can move your eye up, down, left and right within the size of your thumb and you will still not see the skyscraper. if you move your thumb far enough away from your eye such that it only just obscures the skyscraper, then if you move your eye only a tiny amount in any direction you will be able to see part of the skyscraper. The moon's shadow during an eclipse corresponds to an area between those two extremes. If the moon only just blots out the sun then the shadow of the moon will be tiny, because as soon as the moon has moved a small amount, part of the sun will be visible and you are no longer in dark shadow. If the moon is a little closer to the earth such that it more than covers the sun then the shadow will be larger. The only way the moon's shadow could be the same size as the moon is if the moon and the earth were touching.

We disagree... Neither is going to convince the other... As I said...


2048a82f551f5e3a4ddffeaa0992bb87.jpg
 
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prodromos

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Sorry, I don't follow.
No, you really don't, do you.
The moon shadow, on the earth, must be larger than the moon itself.. This is the case with all shadows.
The penumbra shadow is larger, but some of the sun is visible in the penumbra so you are not in complete darkness. The umbra shadow is smaller and it is only in the umbra shadow that the sun is completely blocked out. This is the case with all shadows where the light source is larger than the object blocking the light.
 
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prodromos

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We disagree... Neither is going to convince the other...
You haven't made an argument, you just keep stating the same falsehood over and over, so no, you are never going to convince me. You haven't given any refutation of what I have posted and have in fact agreed with me, so it is unlikely I will be able to convince someone who is not being rational, but as there are other people reading this thread who might otherwise be fooled by your arguments, here I am.
As I said...


2048a82f551f5e3a4ddffeaa0992bb87.jpg
Feel free to stop responding.
 
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JacksBratt

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No, you really don't, do you.

The penumbra shadow is larger, but some of the sun is visible in the penumbra so you are not in complete darkness. The umbra shadow is smaller and it is only in the umbra shadow that the sun is completely blocked out. This is the case with all shadows where the light source is larger than the object blocking the light.
Yep.... but the sun... from the earth... is not larger than the moon.
 
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prodromos

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Yep.... but the sun... from the earth... is not larger than the moon.
The skyscraper... from your eye... is not larger than your thumb.
 
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The Liturgist

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You know one amusing claim we see associated with the Flat Earth community is that there are no intercontinental flights in the Southern Hemisphere, but inconveniently enough, there are. They are infrequent due to low demand, but they happen.

Also the Great Circle Route followed by airliners for maximum fuel efficiency would obviously not work with a flat Earth.
 
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d taylor

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Science only attempts to describe what can be observed. Since creation is supranatural, it cannot be described by science. I do not hold that there was a big bang event. I believe God created a mature universe just like He created Adam as a mature human. I believe God created a globe earth because that is what I observe. If Scripture seems to suggest God created a flat earth then it is my interpretation of Scripture that is wrong.

What you have said is that it is not the creation described by your own personal hyper-literal interpretation of Genesis 1.

Hyper-Literal interpretation.

So believeing what was is written in The Bible as it is written, is now referred to as Hyper-Literal.

So when God states He created two great lights, believing that verse as written. Is now Hyper-Literal, it is the same ole game that has been played by the so called theological elites for a while, it really is nothing new. These theological know it all elites, have played the same game with God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Anyone who believes as The Bible plainly states, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. The only condition given by God to receive Eternal Life (salvation) is belief/faith/trust in The promised Messiah for Eternal Life.

But there are many who attack this grace given by God as easy believism . So really nothing new here in applying names to adversaries of these theological elitist.

These names actually carry no authority, because they come form mere men. Who think they have some type of superiority, because of science or some theological backing. But when examined through the lens of The Bible, their errors are reveled.
 
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prodromos

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Anyone who believes as The Bible plainly states, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. The only condition given by God to receive Eternal Life (salvation) is belief/faith/trust in The promised Messiah for Eternal Life.
You also have to eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, otherwise you have no life in you. The Bible plainly states this, yet you will explain it away as a metaphor of something else and not what is actually written.
These names actually carry no authority, because they come form mere men. Who think they have some type of superiority, because of science or some theological backing. But when examined through the lens of The Bible, their errors are reveled
You are a mere man, yet you think your interpretation of Scripture is somehow superior despite it flying in the face of what God gave us eyes to observe.
 
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JacksBratt

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You also have to eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, otherwise you have no life in you. The Bible plainly states this, yet you will explain it away as a metaphor of something else and not what is actually written.

You are a mere man, yet you think your interpretation of Scripture is somehow superior despite it flying in the face of what God gave us eyes to observe.
The metaphor of the "body" and "Blood" is evident in the fact that Christ was, at that very moment, holding actual bread and actual wine and stating.... "This is my body" and "this is my blood"... It was a metaphor at the very first communion.
To take it any further and claim that it was His actual blood and body.. would be laughable at the very moment it happened.. let alone now.

In Genesis.. it is a literal description of God (the preincarnate Jesus) literally speaking all things into existance. As is the rest of the book on creation.
 
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JacksBratt

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Hyper-Literal interpretation.

So believeing what was is written in The Bible as it is written, is now referred to as Hyper-Literal.

So when God states He created two great lights, believing that verse as written. Is now Hyper-Literal, it is the same ole game that has been played by the so called theological elites for a while, it really is nothing new. These theological know it all elites, have played the same game with God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Anyone who believes as The Bible plainly states, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. The only condition given by God to receive Eternal Life (salvation) is belief/faith/trust in The promised Messiah for Eternal Life.

But there are many who attack this grace given by God as easy believism . So really nothing new here in applying names to adversaries of these theological elitist.

These names actually carry no authority, because they come form mere men. Who think they have some type of superiority, because of science or some theological backing. But when examined through the lens of The Bible, their errors are reveled.
I full well believe that if Christ had not stated "Believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and though shalt be saved" People would not believe that He was the messiah.

They full well believe all of the supernatural miracles that Jesus did... due to the fact that dismissing these events would leave them without a method of salvation..
However, they can toss the other miracles out the window... and hold to the mere musings of atheistic Darwinian lies.... and avoid ridicule... and.... keep their salvation.

I say that God COULD do things exactly as He said...
Why would He say these things if it was not true.

Let God be true and every man a liar.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hyper-Literal interpretation.

So believeing what was is written in The Bible as it is written, is now referred to as Hyper-Literal.

No, rather, believing what Scripture doesn’t actually say by literally interpreting metaphors, parables, analogies and figures of speech is hyper-literal. For example, in John 10:7-16, our Lord declares Himself to be a door and a shepherd. This statement is accurate if interpreted reasonably: our Lord was not literally a shepherd, far less a door but rather a carpenter by trade, in addition to being the Christ, our Lord and Savior God the Son incarnate.

So when God states He created two great lights, believing that verse as written. Is now Hyper-Literal, it is the same ole game that has been played by the so called theological elites for a while, it really is nothing new.

God did create two great lights: a star, which is to say a massive sphere of hydrogen at a distance of 1 AU, and a smaller spherical body, commonly called the Moon or Luna, orbiting the Earth at a distance of a few light seconds.

These theological know it all elites, have played the same game with God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Anyone who believes as The Bible plainly states, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. The only condition given by God to receive Eternal Life (salvation) is belief/faith/trust in The promised Messiah for Eternal Life.

This argument makes no sense at all, since if, as you say, the only condition required to receive eternal life is belief, faith and trust in Christ Jesus, there is no possible harm in this life or the next from regarding the world as ellipsoid.

Conversely, given the fact that many safety-critical aspects of navigation, aviation, meteorology, oceanography, avionics engineering and wireless communications require knowledge of geodesy (and knowledge of geodesy starts with understanding the ellipsoid shape of this beautiful blue planet God has given us) there is an actual potential for harm at least in this life (and possibly the next if one attains an engineering, communications, navigation or other safety-critical job that requires geodetic comprehension, and causes a disaster through willful ignorance of the same resulting in the loss of life).

Indeed, forgive me, but I feel compelled to observe this holds true regardless of one’s soteriology, for as I mentioned previously, from a Nuda Fide perspective, such as the one you appear to hold, the question of the true shape of the Earth is unrelated to whether or not once believes on Jesus Christ as Savior; from a traditional Orthodox or Catholic soteriology or the Sola Fide of the traditional Protestant churches, because in both, putting our God-given intellect to peaceful and productive use is meritorious, whereas the willful ignorance or gross negligence that could cause harm to oneself or to others is by definition missing the mark, and while we are all sinners, we know from the Bible that a living faith bears fruit in the form of good works such as humility, repentance, loving-kindness and thanksgiving for those manifold blessings which our Heavenly Father hath seen fit to endow us.

I should lastly note that the risk of actually endangering oneself or others through refusal to accept the truth of the shape of our world is an exceedingly unlikely way to sin, since those professions which require a knowledge of geodesy are difficult to get into, requiring substantial academic or professional training.

Rather, the greatest risk of sin concerning this issue is one of pride, and it afflicts both those who believe the world to be ellipsoid, and those who do not, for the adherents of either group is at considerable risk of becoming puffed up with conceit, believing that since he knows the truth of the matter, this makes him inherently superior to those he considers to be in error.

This is not the case: A pious Christian could live his entire life totally unaware of the shape of the Earth, while living a life of true repentance, a life centered around loving God above all and loving his neighbor as himself, a life of attending church regularly, a life of giving alms to the poor and comfort to the distressed, a life of bewailing with free-flowing tears of compunction the many sins he, like every other Christian, has committed against God and the actual harm they have caused to his neighbor, a life of holy matrimony or holy celibacy, in which he puts ahead of his own the needs of his wife and children if married, or if celibate, the needs of his brothers and sisters in Christ, depending on the circumstances of his vocation, and in which he seeks to be a true servant of Christ’s church, spreading the Gospel either directly through the different forms of ministry available to him, or indirectly by being a beacon of virtue through obedience to the commandments of our Lord, God and Savior.

In fact, all Christians, as well as everyone else, actually are unaware of the actual shape of the Earth at any given moment, because the seas and the air above them are dynamic, and unlike the minor planets in the outer solar system, frozen solid and utterly devoid of an atmosphere, there is no way in classical physics to say with certainty the precise physical dimensions of the Earth at any given point in time. Rather, we assert the Earth is because although its physical shape is dynamic, at all times it can be described as an ellipsoid.

The vast majority of Christians, and of everyone else, are unaware of these subtleties of geodetics, and a great many would be surprised to learn how complex this really is, and alas, if only science education were what it used to be, and if “educational” channels on television like The History Channel still broadcast genuinely educational documentaries rather than moronic reality TV, the fields of science and engineering where geodetics are important, such as telecommunications engineering, avionics, oceanography, geology, meteorology, astronomy, aerodynamics, astrophysics, and many others.

Indeed, a very large number of people if asked the shape of the Earth would merely say it was round, which is the wrong answer, even though it is true that the Earth is round, because round is a quality of a shape and not a shape per se. And of those who did name an actual shape, the vast majority would say it was a sphere rather than an ellipsoid or spheroid; many people were or in some cases even today are taught in school that the Earth is spherical, and while it is true that the Earth is approximately spherical, it is not actually a perfect sphere but a spheroid, and remarkably few people, including remarkably many intellectuals in a variety of fields where geodesy is not a pressing concern, are not aware of this subtle distinction.

Thus, no one has any cause for pride, because whether they are right or wrong concerning the shape of the Earth, the vast majority of people simply do not know, nor do they need to know.

There is one other manner in which one might sin concerning the issue of the Flat Earth, that being the misrepresentation of the Christian faith in a manner that is detrimental to the saving work of the Great Commission, which I shall address in response to the following:

But there are many who attack this grace given by God as easy believism . So really nothing new here in applying names to adversaries of these theological elitist.

As I have shown, it is not relevant to a Christian’s hope of salvation, regardless of his denomination or soteriological belief if he personally does not know or accept the truth that this planet on which we are blessed to be born through the grace of God Almighty, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is in the shape of an obloid (and likewise every other planet of similar characteristics created through Christ our God according to the will of the Father is of a similiar obloid or spherical shape, depending upon its composition, the gravitational forces acting upon it, and a multitude of other factors), for indeed, many, including myself, believe that all who are baptized in Christ have put on Christ, and having thus been sacramentally grafted onto the Body of Christ through the sacred mysteries of Baptism, Chrismation and the Eucharist, possess the Christian hope of the Resurrection and the Life of the World to Come.

These names actually carry no authority, because they come form mere men. Who think they have some type of superiority, because of science or some theological backing. But when examined through the lens of The Bible, their errors are reveled.

This takes us to the third category of sin I mentioned. When one asserts that the Holy Bible literally declares the Earth to be flat, on the basis of a few verses in a book which is filled with beautiful poetic metaphors, analogies, parables and related figures of speech, and which furthermore excels in the use of such figures of speech to convey complex truth, which is a classically Semitic approach to literature, and also one adopted with enthusiasm by the neighboring civilizations of Egypt, Persia, Rome, and most importantly, Greece (for it was in Greek that the New Testament would be written), as pointed out by myself and others, it misrepresents the content of Scripture. And if one asserts that a belief in a Flat Earth is an essential, that is even worse, because as I have already shown, it is irrelevant to salvation regardless of denomination.

The greatest problem this creates, however, is that since the vast majority of people have been taught in school the approximate shape of the Earth, and since the evidence in favor of a spheroid Earth is overwhelmingly obvious to most people, it fosters the an impression, one actively promoted by militant atheists and other enemies of the Christian faith, that Christians are not well educated, incapable of using the scientific method, and have no ability to positively contribute to our modern technological civilization, despite the fact that most of the key technologies powering our modern civilization were invented by Christians, who also performed most of the greatest accomplishments of science and engineering. For example, Yuri Gagarin was a baptized and secretly practicing Russian Orthodox Christian (the claim he made a radio transmission that he did not see God while in space was pure Soviet propaganda), and the vast majority of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo astronauts were Protestant Christians. Buzz Aldrin is a Presbyterian, and at the time of Apollo 11 was serving as a Deacon in his church, and his first act after the Lunar Module had landed and stabilized during the planned rest period before EVA was to partake of Holy Communion using a specially prepared kit that had accompanied him into space, part of the very limited number of personal items he and the other astronauts were allowed to take with them.

If we discourage people from becoming Christians on the basis of a false premise resting on an obvious misinterpretation of Sacred Scripture, we have made ourselves a stumbling block, and this is something Christians are clearly taught not to do, whether laity or clergy.
 
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prodromos

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The metaphor of the "body" and "Blood" is evident in the fact that Christ was, at that very moment, holding actual bread and actual wine and stating.... "This is my body" and "this is my blood"... It was a metaphor at the very first communion.
So you believe that if we don't eat bread and wine we literally have no life in us? You truly believe that is what Christ was saying?
God speaks in Genesis and it is reality.
God speaks at the last supper and it is not reality?
Make up your mind, which is it?
 
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d taylor

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You also have to eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, otherwise you have no life in you. The Bible plainly states this, yet you will explain it away as a metaphor of something else and not what is actually written.

You are a mere man, yet you think your interpretation of Scripture is somehow superior despite it flying in the face of what God gave us eyes to observe.

Chapter 6 tells a reader exactly what is meant by Jesus referencing flesh and blood.
 
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prodromos

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Chapter 6 tells a reader exactly what is meant by Jesus referencing flesh and blood.
Indeed, He doubles down on it being His very own flesh and blood.
 
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d taylor

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I full well believe that if Christ had not stated "Believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and though shalt be saved" People would not believe that He was the messiah.

They full well believe all of the supernatural miracles that Jesus did... due to the fact that dismissing these events would leave them without a method of salvation..
However, they can toss the other miracles out the window... and hold to the mere musings of atheistic Darwinian lies.... and avoid ridicule... and.... keep their salvation.

I say that God COULD do things exactly as He said...
Why would He say these things if it was not true.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

It comes down to people simply not believing God at His word. Really no difference than when Jesus was here the first time offering the kingdom of God to the nation of Israel.
The only condition was to believe that Jesus was who He said He was. The promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh. But from Jesus miracles especially the one or ones that only The Messiah was prophesied to be able to do. The people simply did not believe.

Why because Jesus did not match the messiah that these leaders and people had crafted. He (Jesus) matched The Messiah from the Tanakh's prophecies perfectly.

I fully believe that today if Jesus just came down from heaven today just for a day visit. And was questioned about the shape of the earth and God's creation, etc.

And He stated It is exactly as described literally in The Bible in Genesis and other areas of The Bible.

God/Jesus created a dome/expanse that He placed the sun, moon and stars in, the moon and sun are created lights, etc....

People would not believe Him, they would say well science has given us proof that this is not true. And that you (Jesus) should check with science so you can understand your creation.
 
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