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Is the Destruction of Iraq prophecied in the bible?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Yauming, Jan 30, 2002.

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  1. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    I read Jeremiah Chapter 50-51 sometime ago. And it seems interesting considering the recent talk in the US to end Iraq's manufacture of weapons of mass destruction.

    I've written the verse here. I had to snip a few parts off to summarize the content. Don't complain otherwise I'll copy the WHOLE thing (which is very very very long) and send it to you. <^.^>

    Jeremiah 50-51
    A nation from the north will attack Babylon (which is the ancient name for Iraq) and lay waste her land. No one will live in it; both men and animals will flee away...(etc...)
    Flee out of her For I will stir up and bring against Babylon. An alliance of great nations from the land of the north
    They will take up their positions against her.
    And from the north she will be captured

    Look! An army is coming from the north;
    A great nation and many kings
    are being stirred up from the ends of the earth. ...They are cruel and without mercy;
    They sound like the roaring sea...
    they come like men in battle formation....
    I will send foreigners to Babylon to winnow and to devastate her land; ...
    The Lord's purpose against Babylon is to lay waste the land so that no one will live there.... (and on and on and on)
    Jeremiah Chapter 50 -51

    Some prophecies are very vague and hard to interpretate, but at least this prophecy was a little bit more specific and speaks several times of a big attack on modern day Iraq from the North.

    As you know the last time the US led coalition army attacked Iraq they did it from the south (from Saudi Arabia)and they didn't try to conquer it. (Turkey did mobilize her forces but did not attack.)

    Jeremiah's prophecy alludes to an attack from the North. So I think, and this is my own personal opinion, that the Allied army will attack from Turkey which is on Iraq's northern border; Turkey is also a member of NATO. NATO has recently agreed to fully support the US and to only them to use their bases for any attacks on the nation that planned the terrorist attacks.

    Note: the Saudis and other Arab nations are against any attack on Iraq so an attack from the South is probably out of the question.

    (Just for clarification, I did not discover the verses myself. I remember my preacher and other people talked about it... err.. 15 - 10 years ago? and the recent ruckus in the Middle East caused me to read it up again.)
     
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  2. futuresoldier

    futuresoldier guided by Jesus

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    You arrogant Americans love to talk about destroying Iraq bombing Iraq sanctioning Iraq raiding Iraq
     
  3. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello futuresoldier,
    I just want to point out, that the guy that started this thread is not in America. But I live in America. But I'm only visiting. Even though I was born here, I don't consider it my home. I never chose to be an American. It was God that placed me here. My home is with Jesus, and 2000 years ago He went to prepare a place for me.

    As for this love or joy about the destruction of Iraq, that is not my love. It is not my purpose or my plan. All this stuff was written thousands of years ago by Gods prophets, and many are still to be fulfilled in the near future. These prophets spoke what God wanted the to say. Many of them didn't even know what they were talking about, because it was meant for a time too far into the future. The study of such things is called Escatology, and I hope I spelled it right. Many people, christians and even some non-believers like to read and study these things. Even me, and I like watching the news and comparing the news to the things that are coming in the very near future. This stuff is much bigger than we are. Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, Gods plan will be accomplished, and that is all I have to say.
     
  4. Blynn

    Blynn Well-Known Member

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    This is very interesting Yauming it sounds like Iraq.


    "An alliance of great nations from the land of the north
    They will take up their positions against her.
    And from the north she will be captured "


    Still new to this prophecy stuff would this include Russia?


    Futuresoilder, even if I did not believe the bible, I do not think it is wise to have a mad man like Saddam Hussein (who believes he is the reincarnation of King Nebecinezer(sure I did not spell that right) with weapons of mass destruction. He is a very cruel dictator. He thinks nothing of having people (including family members) executed.

    God Bless,
    Roberta
     
  5. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    Hello Blynn,

    Yeah, I think Babylon is Iraq. The prophecy might be symbolic. But the constant geographic references to an attack from the north does suggest a more literal approach to the prophecy.

    Russia, getting involved? Maybe they will as part of the coalition- but in a limited sense. Its not really their war. Besides, we've seen how they performed against Chechen. I doubt they would want to hazard the logisitics to support a war so far south of their border.

    I think that the UN ("alliance of great kings") will mass their forces in Turkey and attack Iraq from there. The Saudis will not allow the UN to base their forces in their territory this time.

    However, the rationale for such a bloody war is not there yet. The US will find it nearly impossible to convince any of its allies, even its staunch ally- Great Britain, to sweat blood and money in fight. Iraq has to do something drastically horrible to provoke such a conflict.

    The scripture warns that God's people should flee out of Babylon because afterwards it will be practically uninhabitable- "an object of horror and scorn, a place where no one lives" Jeremiah 51:37
    and "Come out of her, my people! Run for your lives!" Jeremiah 51:45


    Cheers,

    YM


     
  6. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant Supporter

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    Hmmm....interesting thoughts.
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Yauming,
    This is interesting. I was talking to a guy in my bible study class a few weeks back about this. It clearly was fulfilled by the Medes, but I would also suspect that this is also referring to a time in the future. I have a strong hunch about it. This is also why I said in my thread "Where Is America II", that When we attack Iraq, it could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

    I think Turkey is very uncomfortable with Saddam to the south of them. Turkey has advised Iraq to submit to UN inspections of weapons of Mass destruction. It is just a matter of time.
     
  8. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    Yes Saddam is trouble alright. He rebuilt the city babylon some 50 KM out side of Bahgdad. Sounds a lot like nuclear trouble getting ready to happen. The good ol USA has a history of defending herself and with all our troubles we still love freedom. You can see what happens when someone tries to take that away.
     
  9. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    Hi Rolling Thunder,

    Thanks for your comments.

    Where were the Medes? I thought they were the ancient Iranians?

    Cheers,

    YM

     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Yauming,
    I'm sorry I didn't finish this post last night. I had some unexpected visitors come over. To answer your question. The Medes or Medians may have been Iran, Turkey, or even Armenia. It would seem that they all converged on the Babylonians from the north. But there are also some things in these scriptures that lead me to believe that the past will repeat itself. Verse 50:26 - "Come against her from afar. Break open her granaries; pile her up like heaps of grain. Completely destroy her and leave her no remnant." This looks like the alliance of great nations will attack from the north, but it also sounds more like our modern weapons or bombs will come from nations far away. The Medes had no weapons that could make the land desolate or uninhabited. Both men and animals will no longer live there. It will never be inhabited again from generation to generation. As God overthrew Sodam and Gomorrah. This sounds like nukes to me, YIKES!

    And one last point to our freind from England that says the Americans are arrogant. God says that the Babylonians were arrogant. >> 50:31-32 - "See, I am against you, O arrogant one," declares the Lord Almighty, for your day has come, the time for you to be punished. <32> "The arrogant one will stumble and fall and no one will help her up; I will kindle a fire in her towns that will consume all who are around her."
     
  11. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    Hello Rolling Thunder,

    Nukes! That's the thing that worries me. The verses does state that Babylon will be utterly devastated. So far only Japan in WWII warranted an atomic strike after it refused to surrender. Moreover, the US later helped to rebuild Japan after the war. In this case, Babylon/Iran's destruction will be so great that no one will live there.

    Iraq has to do something pretty awful to make everyone mad enough to smash it completely. The international community at the moment does not have the will to even mount a limited war against Iraq, not to mention the opposition to such a war by pro-peace, pro-Arab lobby groups and factions all around the world.

    The verses in Isaiah fortell of the wrath falling on Iraq's because of its murder of God's people IIRC. So I submit that Iraq has to commit an act or actions so henious that a coalition of nations (not just the US alone) will form and utterly destroy it.

    God help us all.

    YM


     
  12. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

    282
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    Hi all,
    This is my first time hear, so I hope I don`t brake the groove.

    Bagdad is not were Babylon was.

    Babylon lays desolate to this day as the prophesy says it would.

    It was the medians and Persians through Syrus (a median) that over through Babylon (medians are in the north) and then it deteriated away until around alexanders time and then the empire of Babylon eventually fell never to rise again.

    So, the great empire of the city of Babylon has layed waste for about the last 2200 yrs.

    The Golden City
    The city of Babylon straddled the Euphrates River about fifty miles south of what is now modern Baghdad in Iraq. . Baghdad is located on the Tigris River, approximately 40 miles east of the Euphrates. Herodotus claimed that the town was laid out in an exact square, approximately fifteen miles on each side.



    Babylon to fall

    In addition to the passage mentioned earlier (Jeremiah 50:17-18), there are many other prophecies that affirm the ultimate desolation of Babylon. In the early 8th century before the birth of Christ, and almost two hundred years before Cyrus conquered the “golden city,” Isaiah declared: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon; and all the graven images of her gods are broken unto the ground” (21:9)

    Again Jehovah, through his prophet, rhetorically calls to Babylon: “Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans...” (Isaiah 47:1). Babylon is designated as a “virgin” because for many years she had escaped the ravages of other nations. But that status would come to an end!
    Or consider the announcements of Jeremiah: “Declare you among the nations and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken...” (Jeremiah 50:2). “Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed; wail for her; take balm for her pain...” (Jeremiah 51:8). Among other contexts, a survey of Isaiah, chapters 13 and 14, and Jeremiah, chapters 50 and 51, will reveal numerous declarations concerning Babylon’s impending fall and ultimate desolation.

    The prophetic chronology

    In giving consideration to the “time” factor in prophecies regarding the destruction of Babylon, two things must be kept in view. First, there was to be an initial defeat of the superpower. Second, afterward there would be a gradual but progressive degeneration of the locale that ultimately would result in total ruin.

    The conquerors specified
    But who would overthrow mighty Babylon? Both Isaiah and Jeremiah provide that information. In a section that concludes with: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon,” the messianic prophet wrote: “Go up, O Elam; besiege O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease...” (Isaiah 21:2). As I have noted elsewhere, “Elam is here used to facilitate the Hebrews’ understanding of the source of the impending invasion, since Persia was not yet prominent. Later, Elam is considered as a part of the Persian empire...” (Jackson, 1991, p. 48). Skinner observed that Elam and Media were

    “the dominions of Cyrus. The former lay east of the Tigris and north of the Persian Gulf; Media was the mountainous district adjoining it on the north. Cyrus, according to the Babylonian records, was originally king of Anzan, in the north of Elam; in 549 he conquered Media, uniting the two in one kingdom” (1963, 1:170).

    Rawlinson noted that “Elam” is named because it was familiar to the Hebrews, whereas “Persia” would have been a designation alien to them at the time of Isaiah’s writing (1950, 10:336). What precision!

    Again Isaiah details the conquering exploits of Cyrus, leader of the Medo-Persian forces and the brilliant strategist who overthrew the city of Babylon:

    “Thus says Jehovah to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him, and I will loose the loins of kings; to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut...” (45:1).

    The prophecy was uttered two centuries before the birth of the Persian monarch.The works of Herodotus and Xenophon are the two principal sources of historical confirmation. Herodotus (484-425 B.C.), known as the “father of history. He vividly describes the overthrow of Babylon.
    Xenophon (c. 430-355 B.C.), a student of Socrates, was a Greek historian born in Athens. It provides considerable data on the fall of Babylon.

    The Euphrates River diverted
    When Cyrus surveyed Babylon’s fortifications, he said: “...I am unable to see how any enemy can take walls of such strength and height by assault” (Xenophon, VIII.V.7). Accordingly, he devised a brilliant strategy for capturing the city.

    the Euphrates river ran under the walls through the center of Babylon. From the river, canals—quite broad and sometimes navigable—were cut in every direction. The Jews in captivity could thus lament: “By the rivers of Babylon, There we sat down, yea, we wept, When we remembered Zion” (Psalm 137:1). Just to the west of the city was a huge lake-basin, some thirty-five feet deep and covering forty miles square, but which, at the time of the invasion, was but a marsh. Cyrus stationed soldiers at the point where the river entered the city, and also where it exited. At a given time, he diverted the Euphrates from its bed into the marshy lake area. His forces then entered Babylon under the city walls (Herodotus, I.191).

    Consider what the prophets declared regarding Babylon’s fall.

    Isaiah, writing more than a century-and-a-half earlier, referred to Jehovah’s decree. The Lord “saith to the deep: Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers, that saith of Cyrus, he is my shepherd and shall perform my pleasure...” (Isaiah 47:27).

    Surprise capture during drunken feast

    Concerning Babylon’s fall, Jeremiah represented the Lord as saying: “I have laid a snare for you, and you are also taken, O Babylon...” (50:24).
    The term “snare” suggests that the citizens of the city would be taken by surprise; they “were not aware” of what was happening until it was too late (50:24b).

    Herodotus wrote: “Had the Babylonians been apprised of what Cyrus was about, or had they noticed their danger, they would never have allowed the Persians to enter their city...” (I.191).

    One aspect in the rapid conquest of the city had to do with the fact that the Babylonians, in their smug security, were engaged in drunken festivities; thus, they were wholly unconcerned about the enemy beyond their massive walls.

    But the Lord had declared: “When they are heated, I will make their feast, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, says Jehovah” (Jeremiah 51:39).

    Again: “And I will make drunk her princes and her wise men, her governors and her deputies, and her mighty men; and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, says the King whose name is Jehovah of hosts...” (Jeremiah 51:57).

    Herodotus recorded that the citizens of the central section of the city did not know that Babylon had fallen for a good while because “they were engaged in a festival, continued dancing and revelling until they learnt the capture...” (I.191).

    Similarly, Xenophon said that “there was a festival in Babylon, in which all the Babylonians drank and revelled the whole night Babylon to be sacked

    The prophets indicated that when great Babylon was taken, her rich treasures would be looted. The Lord, speaking prophetically to Cyrus, had promised: “[A]nd I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places...” (Isaiah 45:3).


    Jeremiah announced: “[A]nd they shall become as women: a sword is upon her treasures, and they shall be robbed” (50:37).

    The treasures of Babylon were splendid beyond description. Herodotus, in describing just one of the temples in the city, declared that it contained more than twenty tons of gold (I.183).

    It is interesting to note that when Cyrus issued his famous decree, allowing the Jews to return to their land, he endowed them with silver and gold to help finance the project, as well as returning some 5,400 vessels of gold and silver that originally had been taken from the Hebrew temple (Ezra 1:4,11).

    When Jehovah beckoned the Persians to come against evil Babylon, He charged: “[O]pen up her store-houses [granaries, ASV fn.]; cast her up as heaps, and destroy her utterly; let nothing of her be left” (Jeremiah 50:26).

    Xenophon reports that Babylon “was furnished with provisions for more than twenty years” (VIII.5.13). No wonder they felt secure; the storehouses were bulging. But God emptied them—just as His prophet had announced!


    Babylon to fade into oblivion

    The prophets repeatedly proclaimed the eventual utter desolation of ancient Babylon.

    Isaiah gave the following particulars:

    “And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there. But wild beasts of the desert shall live there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and ostriches shall dwell there, and wild goats shall dance there. And wolves shall cry in their castles, and jackals in the pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged” (13:19-22).

    Jeremiah was equally graphic; the reader may consult chapters 50 and 51 of his book for the numerous details given there.


    this is a collection of information that I find extreamly interesting , thats why I have put so much hear.

    for those that are interested.

    anyway, I think this should settle the issue of this being past , precent and future.

    for me any how ;) :)
     
  13. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    >
    After a siege of two years, the city of Babylon was captured by Cyrus, commander of the Medo-Persian forces, in October of 539 B.C. This brought the Neo-Babylonian empire (614-539 B.C.) to a close. Significant damage to the city was not inflicted at this time, though some of the walls may have been broken down, at least partially.

    Following a rebellion of the Babylonian subjects, Darius Hystaspes took the city again in 520 B.C. He demolished the walls significantly and carried off the huge gates (see Jeremiah 51:58). Elsewhere I have given a detailed account of how the city was taken—again by a “snare” (Jackson, 1996). Herodotus wrote: “Thus was Babylon taken for a second time. Darius having become master of the place, destroyed the wall, and tore down all the gates; for Cyrus had done neither the one nor the other when he took Babylon” (III.159). Apparently, however, there was some subsequent repair of the walls

    During the reign of Xerxes (485-465 B.C.), the temple of Bel (Marduk) was plundered and destroyed. Much of the city was turned into ruins in 483 B.C., and the walls were dismantled further.

    Babylon again fell to Alexander the Great in 331 B.C. As Alexander neared the city, priests and nobles went out to meet him with lavish gifts, surrendering the city. Alexander proposed that he would rebuild the temple of Marduk. He employed 10,000 men to clear the dirt and rubble. They labored in vain for two months. Alexander died and the work was abandoned (Rollin, 1857, 1:575). A clay tablet has been found that confirms this enterprise. It records that in the 6th year of Alexander’s reign, he made a payment of ten manehs of silver for “clearing away the dust of E-sagila [Marduk’s great temple]” (King, 1919, 2:284-288).

    In 270 B.C. Antiochus Soter, a Greek ruler, restored several of the temples in Babylon, but the general decay of the city continued.

    In the time of Strabo (at the end of the 1st century B.C.), the site was in ruins. Jerome (4th century A.D.), learned that Babylon had been used as a wild game park for the amusement of numerous Persian dignitaries (McClintock and Strong, 1969, 1:596). In the 5th century A.D., according to Cyril of Alexandria, due to the bursting of canal banks, Babylon became a swamp (Jeremias, 1911, 1:294).

    Volney, the French atheist who was such a militant adversary of the Bible, wrote his book, The Ruins of Empires, in 1791. Therein he stated: “Nothing is left of Babylon but heaps of earth, trodden under foot of men” (as quoted in Holman, 1926, p. 333). As Jeremiah had prophesied: “...[C]ast her up as heaps...” (50:26). It is ironic that a skeptic should lend support to confirming the accuracy of the biblical narrative!

    When Austen Layard explored Babylon in the mid-19th century, he described the heaps of rubbish that rendered the area a “naked and hideous waste” (1856, p. 413). Later, when Robert Koldewey excavated the city for eighteen seasons beginning in 1899, he said that as he gazed over the ruins, he could not but be reminded of Jeremiah 50:39 (1914, p. 314). He reported that many of the sites were covered with forty to eighty feet of sand and rubble.

    A relatively modern air-view of Babylonia — once the world’s greatest city — shows only a mound of dirt and broken-down walls


    so , I rest my case :D
     
  14. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Celtic Crusader,
    That was an excellent overview of the past. I would have to agree that Gods Prophets were exactly right in there prophecies. But I also believe as mentioned in a prior post that, there is hidden glimpses of the past repeating itself. Much in the same sense that Jesus was also hidden in the old testament, but was a mystery for thousands of years. I also like the added point that you brought up about Babylon is fallen, fallen. That is another clue that history will repeat, at least in my mind. You were also very accurate in your attacking nations where abouts. When you add Elam, that on my map is modern day Iraq, which would leave the Medes to Armenia and probably Eastern Turkey. Saddam Hussein believes that he is king Neb.... reincarnated, and he promised to rebuild Babylon 7 or 8 years ago. Another thing that seems to indicate the past repeating, is that at one point, the prophets said that men or animals will no longer live there, but then in another verse later it said that hyeanas and owls will be living there. This is very interesting stuff, and you did an excellent job. Thanks Dude.
     
  15. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Hi THUNDER,
    yea , I agree.
    alot of things are a fortaiste of what is to come. even a shadow.

    there is also a way of saying things in the bible that uses old occurances to explain the future.


    in the new testament it talks about babylon falling but is this the true babylon or a type of babylon.

    this verse makes me believe that the babylon of revelations 17 and 18 is actualy ROME.

    revelations 17
    9
    And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    rome is the only city in all of history that could fullfill these prophesys of destruction as they are the only great city that sits on 7 hills.

    so , as a type , john uses the terminology of babylon to explain what will happen to rome. he wouldn`t have wanted to speake straight because he would have caused persucution from rome.


    so babylon means rome to me.

    Revelation 18:1-3 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    Revelation 18:10 Revelation 18 Revelation 18:9-11 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

    Revelation 18:21 Revelation 18 Revelation 18:20-22 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.



    danial talks about the line of empires on the earth and it lead from babylon to rome.

    they are of the same empire.

    so this babylon is actualy the city of the vatican and rome in my opinion.

    thanks

    celtic
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello celtic crusader,
    I would agree that Rome is very important. The Vatican is in Rome. The woman that is riding the beast though, I think will be the (false bride or religion) joining the false king of kings.
     
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