Is the creation debate over?

jameslouise

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What the Gap folks failed to see is that even though the Hebrew will render "it was so." Its expressed with the understanding of "it became."
I have no concern whether it is 'became' or 'was', I am a Gap theory man and prefer the translation as 'was' as fits better with the prophetic thread.
Declaration of interest: this is my web site and still needs proof reading so bear with me as I just wanted to get it out there ASAP-but it proves Gap theory beyond any doubt whatsoever.
That "the earth standing out of the water and in the water"
I believe in the water is earth viewed for outer space enclosed within a water canopy is the in the water, and dry ground above sea level is the other.
Seems like you have just repeated the YEC position without acknowledgement of the rebuttal. God commands mankind to subdue and rule over wild fish and birds. Plants were simply given for consumption, in addition
Not sure what position you are saying I am taking?
Hello James. Were there any Theologians who said they perceived a gap theory in God's word before the era when academia found the fashion in declaring long time periods for the earth and before this external pressure was placed on the church?
It is of no concern to me, whether they did or did not, Genesis directly refers to a gap in plain text.
 
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jameslouise

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What the Gap folks failed to see is that even though the Hebrew will render "it was so." Its expressed with the understanding of "it became."
I have no concern whether it is 'became' or 'was', I am a Gap theory man and prefer the translation as 'was' as fits better with the prophetic thread.
Declaration of interest: this is my web site and still needs proof reading so bear with me as I just wanted to get it out there ASAP-but it proves Gap theory beyond any doubt whatsoever.
That "the earth standing out of the water and in the water"
I believe in the water is earth viewed for outer space enclosed within a water canopy is the in the water, and dry ground above sea level is the other.
Seems like you have just repeated the YEC position without acknowledgement of the rebuttal. God commands mankind to subdue and rule over wild fish and birds. Plants were simply given for consumption, in addition
Not sure what position you are saying I am taking?
Hello James. Were there any Theologians who said they perceived a gap theory in God's word before the era when academia found the fashion in declaring long time periods for the earth and before this external pressure was placed on the church?
It is of no concern to me, whether they did or did not, Genesis directly refers to a gap in plain text.
 
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GenemZ

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I have no concern whether it is 'became' or 'was', I am a Gap theory man and prefer the translation as 'was' as fits better with the prophetic thread.
Declaration of interest: this is my web site and still needs proof reading so bear with me as I just wanted to get it out there ASAP-but it proves Gap theory beyond any doubt whatsoever.


If you have not been aware of this one? A great read free online!

Without Form and Void - Frontpage

I do not know if they still have actual the book for sale. But, much of what it contains is really helpful.

......... grace and peace ............
 
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Job 33:6

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Seems like you have just repeated the YEC position without acknowledgement of the rebuttal. God commands mankind to subdue and rule over wild fish and birds. Plants were simply given for consumption, in addition.
What I'm saying is that, verse 29 involves God granting mankind animals for consumption.
I have no concern whether it is 'became' or 'was', I am a Gap theory man and prefer the translation as 'was' as fits better with the prophetic thread.
Declaration of interest: this is my web site and still needs proof reading so bear with me as I just wanted to get it out there ASAP-but it proves Gap theory beyond any doubt whatsoever.

I believe in the water is earth viewed for outer space enclosed within a water canopy is the in the water, and dry ground above sea level is the other.

Not sure what position you are saying I am taking?

It is of no concern to me, whether they did or did not, Genesis directly refers to a gap in plain text.
What I'm saying is that in verse 29, God grants mankind the freedom to consume animals.

I don't really see a response to this. You say that it demands gap theory, but actually it doesn't. Gap theory could be an option, but really it only demands some awareness of ancient near east context.
 
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Job 33:6

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job 33;6 says 'Gap Theory is summarized in the first half hour of this video'
I watched the video and could not see the relevance and found it a bit meandering and slow too
People were asking about Gap theory, I was just sharing information about it. If you found the video slow and unenjoyable, that's fine. Personally, I enjoyed it.
 
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Job 33:6

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Hi thanks for the reply, i watched the video and found it interesting and considered but without a gap theory framework things soon fall apart. i dp not agree wit him about teeth design( i am a dentist btw) as we are talking about plants 30 feet high and trees 300 feet high. So, entirely plausible that these serrated teeth are needed
GEN 1 :29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
T
this is just man until the fall and there is vast amount of life before then and after the fall too. So just a small window
Gen 1:30

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so
wherein there is life is the key to this verse, this meanog animals wit ha spirit and soul. So none nephesh chayyh animals can eat each other.- they will not be vegetarian. The scorpion in the video
Like wise this text the same but the additional use of it was so means it will be applying to a previous creation too. Note the way verse29 does not have an 'it was so' statement but verse 30 does. I will give you a reason for this too. home-the history of everything 1
It also sounds like you prefer gap theory, so in that case, I'm not sure why you would say "without gap theory, it falls apart".

Are you suggesting that the position would fall apart if not for ideas that you support regarding gap theory?
 
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jameslouise

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What I'm saying is that in verse 29, God grants mankind the freedom to consume animals.

I don't really see a response to this. You say that it demands gap theory, but actually it doesn't. Gap theory could be an option, but really it only demands some awareness of ancient near east context.
I am not sure of your position here:
Genesis 1 :29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
In the literal, this describes how man will eat herb bearing seeds and fruit- i AM not sure why you think it means he can eat animals?????
In the prolonged metaphor with multiple logical typing note the change from herb yielding seed to herb bearing seed cf verse 11 and 12. I can show how just from verse 29 I can say that saved man will need the company of other Christians, the bible and The Holy Spirit for spiritual growth. A prophecy in Genesis. In the OT the NT is concealed.

"
It also sounds like you prefer gap theory, so in that case, I'm not sure why you would say "without gap theory, it falls apart"
I am saying that no young earth paradigm stands up to scrutiny when the fossil record is considered. I am not saying I kowtow to modern geology but even without the fossil record i would expect to find the fossil record as it is just fromm Genesis and gap theory.
 
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Job 33:6

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I am not sure of your position here:
Genesis 1 :29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
In the literal, this describes how man will eat herb bearing seeds and fruit- i AM not sure why you think it means he can eat animals?????
In the prolonged metaphor with multiple logical typing note the change from herb yielding seed to herb bearing seed cf verse 11 and 12. I can show how just from verse 29 I can say that saved man will need the company of other Christians, the bible and The Holy Spirit for spiritual growth. A prophecy in Genesis. In the OT the NT is concealed.

"

I am saying that no young earth paradigm stands up to scrutiny when the fossil record is considered. I am not saying I kowtow to modern geology but even without the fossil record i would expect to find the fossil record as it is just fromm Genesis and gap theory.

Oh ok.

Sorry I meant Genesis 1:28. The verse regarding to subdue and rule, being a prior statement in the broader message there.

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:28‭-‬30 NIV

Meaning that, prior to plants being given for food, animals were given for many purposes, food, clothing, sacrifice etc. To be subdued and ruled over.
 
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jameslouise

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Sorry I meant Genesis 1:28. The verse regarding to subdue and rule, being a prior statement in the broader message there.

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:28‭-‬30 NIV

Meaning that, prior to plants being given for food, animals were given for many purposes, food, clothing, sacrifice etc. To be subdued and ruled over
My own stance is dominion does not mean eat, but its not that important to me either way.
I have some questions for you:

Gen 1;26 & 28 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.....
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth

Why are cattle missed off in verse 28 in the animal categories from verse 26?
Why the change from things that creepeth to things that moveth?
Why the link between what is created/made on day 5 with what is said inverse 26?

I can answer all of these questions- the selected animal categorization is deliberate, precise, has a delightful elegance and all testify to Christ
Declaration of interest : I wrote this web site
 
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Twin_niwT

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The first and second account of creation are two different worlds, each having their own God. (God and god)The gap theory was created by somone who is deperately trying to hold on to the idea that the first and second account of creation are the same thing, which they are not. First is spirit, second is carbon. First is perfect, second is corrupted. First is good, second is evil. Not the same and never will be.
 
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Davy

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The first and second account of creation are two different worlds, each having their own God. (God and god)The gap theory was created by somone who is deperately trying to hold on to the idea that the first and second account of creation are the same thing, which they are not. First is spirit, second is carbon. First is perfect, second is corrupted. First is good, second is evil. Not the same and never will be.
That sounds like it came from one of those History TV shows about Ancient Aliens! Funny!
 
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atpollard

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Is the creation debate over?​

There was never really much of a debate. Most people approach the topic from one of two settled and intransigent preconceived positions ... "Scripture" is infallibly inspired and MUST be true OR "Science" is unbiased Truth that must be accepted. Through those starting positions, all facts, opinions and logical arguments are filtered to support apriori conclusions. Thus any "debate" ended before it began.

Science cannot prove that the CREATOR did not create His creation (and will never even attempt to) and Scripture cannot prove that the CREATOR did create His creation (and will not attempt to). The metaphysical truth of the CREATOR is self-evident to some and "invisible unicorns" to others. What common frame of reference has light and darkness or life and death to discuss "reality"?

So for those like myself, for whom the existence of God, the CREATOR, is self-evident ... the details are trivial beside the obvious fact that the Creator created creation ... which Genesis so states. Any argument that the CREATOR (who does exist) is not responsible for creating the creation that He claims to have created ... rather creation self-created and self-exists ... is as nonsensical as arguing that watches spontaneously self-create from nothing.

For those that WILL NOT believe in a CREATOR (irrespective of any evidence or argument), any story about a CREATOR MUST be false. The "gap theory" is just an attempt to placate the "anti-Creator" lie with a "fig leaf" of deism ("Yes there is a god, but most of the time god does nothing so it seems like there is no god.") :thumbsdown:
 
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Davy

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Is the creation debate over?​

There was never really much of a debate. Most people approach the topic from one of two settled and intransigent preconceived positions ... "Scripture" is infallibly inspired and MUST be true OR "Science" is unbiased Truth that must be accepted. Through those starting positions, all facts, opinions and logical arguments are filtered to support apriori conclusions. Thus any "debate" ended before it began.

If you try to limit the parameters of the debate, or do not have the right parameters to start with, then of course the debate goes nowhere.

Thus it's not about a debate between 'creation' and 'science', because TRUE science will always agree with God's Word. It is 'pseudo-science' that does not agree with God's Word.

The existence of fossil remains, like dinosaurs skeletons for example, is both true science and God's Word.

Job 40:15-23
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17
He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: He That made him can make His sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23
Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
KJV

Some scholars of old tried to interpret that animal above as a Hippo. But a Hippo has a very small rat-like tail. But this God describes that He created "is the chief of the ways of God", and when dinosaurs roamed the earth that would definitely have been them. So true science, which says those dinosaurs once existed upon this earth with many proofs of real bones, agrees with God's Word and visa versa.
 
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atpollard

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Some scholars of old tried to interpret that animal above as a Hippo. But a Hippo has a very small rat-like tail. But this God describes that He created "is the chief of the ways of God", and when dinosaurs roamed the earth that would definitely have been them. So true science, which says those dinosaurs once existed upon this earth with many proofs of real bones, agrees with God's Word and visa versa.
So was T-Rex on the Ark with Noah?

(Do you see where things start to break down, yet?)

Probably not, so let's try another one. What is the Speed of Light? How far away is the nearest Galaxy? How long did it take the light from that Galaxy to reach Earth? How long ago did God create the "heavens"?

Since you mentioned the Fossil record, where does "homo hablis" and "homo erectus" and "homo neanderthanensis" fit with "homo sapiens" and the story of Adam through Abraham?

[Personally, I think the mistake is treating Genesis as a Planetology or Biology Text Book. That is not the question that it was written to answer. It is a POLEMIC and expresses theological truths relative to the prevalent lies that it was created to refute, so its answers are primarily metaphysical as are its questions. "How" is for clever people to figure out on our own - we don't need divine revelation for that.]
 
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Davy

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So was T-Rex on the Ark with Noah?

(Do you see where things start to break down, yet?)

Probably not, so let's try another one. What is the Speed of Light? How far away is the nearest Galaxy? How long did it take the light from that Galaxy to reach Earth? How long ago did God create the "heavens"?

Since you mentioned the Fossil record, where does "homo hablis" and "homo erectus" and "homo neanderthanensis" fit with "homo sapiens" and the story of Adam through Abraham?

[Personally, I think the mistake is treating Genesis as a Planetology or Biology Text Book. That is not the question that it was written to answer. It is a POLEMIC and expresses theological truths relative to the prevalent lies that it was created to refute, so its answers are primarily metaphysical as are its questions. "How" is for clever people to figure out on our own - we don't need divine revelation for that.]
You need to READ what I posted, because I DO NOT AGREE WITH MAN'S PSEUDO-SCIENCE about evolution. I believe in God's CREATION.

The difference with me (along with many Christian pastors that don't talk about it), is that there was a GAP of unknown time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. At Genesis 1:1 is when God made His ORIGINAL PERFECT CREATION. But sometime before Genesis 1:2 Satan rebelled, and God ENDED that OLD WORLD, HIS ORIGINAL 1ST CREATION.

It was in God's ORIGINAL 1ST CREATION WHEN THE DINOSAURS existed. They were destroyed when He ended Satan's rebellion with the detail given in Jeremiah 4:23-28. And then He made today's 2nd CREATION of this 2nd WORLD EARTH AGE we are in beginning at Genesis 1:2.
 
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atpollard

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You need to READ what I posted, because I DO NOT AGREE WITH MAN'S PSEUDO-SCIENCE about evolution. I believe in God's CREATION.

The difference with me (along with many Christian pastors that don't talk about it), is that there was a GAP of unknown time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. At Genesis 1:1 is when God made His ORIGINAL PERFECT CREATION. But sometime before Genesis 1:2 Satan rebelled, and God ENDED that OLD WORLD, HIS ORIGINAL 1ST CREATION.

It was in God's ORIGINAL 1ST CREATION WHEN THE DINOSAURS existed. They were destroyed when He ended Satan's rebellion with the detail given in Jeremiah 4:23-28. And then He made today's 2nd CREATION of this 2nd WORLD EARTH AGE we are in beginning at Genesis 1:2.
I did read what you posted.
I was not suggesting that you believed in evolution, merely that dinosaurs existed (their fossils are real and not part of a conspiracy theory) and that the hominid fossils also exist (they are real and not part of a conspiracy theory) and sought how you fit them into Genesis.

You answered the question ... apparently you would fit all of them into the GAP (although that is potentially problematic for Neanderthal Fossils that were contemporary with modern people).
 
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jhwatts

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I personally think Genesis 1 is a recreation and I have many reasons for that. I would suggest reading Psalms 104. It is just a different perspective on Genesis 1. Psalms104 makes more sense as a recreation rather than a creation. Here a few side by side comparisons between the two.


Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalms 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Psalms 104: (7-9) At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. 8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. 9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Genesis 1: (11-12) 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Psalms 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.


Genesis is not always written chronologically, a person can see it by first reading Genesis 10:31 and then read Genesis 11:1. Ask yourself what is wrong with this picture? In short, the end of Genesis 10 has people on earth with different languages while the beginning of Genesis 11 shows them all having the same language. Is this a contraction or a lack of understanding of how to sometimes read Genesis. The perceived contradiction is from not understanding how the author presented details for important events. Look at Genesis 10: (8-10), you will find the details for this event over in Genesis 11: (1-9). We see the same thing with Genesis 1:1, the detail for this event begins in Genesis 2:4 and Goes through Genesis 4:26. This is the Eden creation. The earth is flooded and then we see the deep of Genesis 1:2 and the earth is remade. This is why light Genesis 1:3 existed before the moon and sun was revealed and man is told to replenish the planet.

Again, the reader should now go to Genesis 1:1 and read then skip to Genesis 2:4 and read to the end of Genesis 4:26. Return to Genesis 1:3 then read to Genesis 2:3 and then read all of Genesis 5.

Genesis 2:4 to Genesis 4:26 is what is in the Gap after Genesis 1:1.

Here is something interesting, read Genesis 3:22 and now go to Genesis 4 and find the the ages of those and their progeny that was expelled from the garden. The people in Genesis 4 are different from those in Genesis 5. Those in Genesis 5 age.
 
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Platte

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I personally think Genesis 1 is a recreation and I have many reasons for that. I would suggest reading Psalms 104. It is just a different perspective on Genesis 1. Psalms104 makes more sense as a recreation rather than a creation. Here a few side by side comparisons between the two.


Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalms 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Psalms 104: (7-9) At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. 8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. 9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Genesis 1: (11-12) 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Psalms 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.


Genesis is not always written chronologically, a person can see it by first reading Genesis 10:31 and then read Genesis 11:1. Ask yourself what is wrong with this picture? In short, the end of Genesis 10 has people on earth with different languages while the beginning of Genesis 11 shows them all having the same language. Is this a contraction or a lack of understanding of how to sometimes read Genesis. The perceived contradiction is from not understanding how the author presented details for important events. Look at Genesis 10: (8-10), you will find the details for this event over in Genesis 11: (1-9). We see the same thing with Genesis 1:1, the detail for this event begins in Genesis 2:4 and Goes through Genesis 4:26. This is the Eden creation. The earth is flooded and then we see the deep of Genesis 1:2 and the earth is remade. This is why light Genesis 1:3 existed before the moon and sun was revealed and man is told to replenish the planet.

Again, the reader should now go to Genesis 1:1 and read then skip to Genesis 2:4 and read to the end of Genesis 4:26. Return to Genesis 1:3 then read to Genesis 2:3 and then read all of Genesis 5.

Genesis 2:4 to Genesis 4:26 is what is in the Gap after Genesis 1:1.

Here is something interesting, read Genesis 3:22 and now go to Genesis 4 and find the the ages of those and their progeny that was expelled from the garden. The people in Genesis 4 are different from those in Genesis 5. Those in Genesis 5 age.
Not a difficult concept. The earth was created 6000 years ago. Why is that so difficult to just accept? That is what the Bible plainly says.
 
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