Is the church still relevant?

[civilwarbuff]

The arguments for what are supposedly Gods wishes and that I should believe in the various religions of the day.

If you were going to A church I don't know why they should be preaching on " that I should believe in the various religions of the day." Does not sound like any Christian church I have heard of.....it was a Christian church, correct? If so, which one?

The arguments for what are supposedly Gods wishes

God does not wish....He determines.....sounds less and less like a Christian church....

I doubt it. My mindset comes through skepticism about everything you believe in and calmly and rationally approaching issues with as clear a head as I can manage. It's not a switch I can flip for you.

So, you are unable to explain what you claim to be "simple and straight forward". So, be honest and say you simply don't believe....that is simple and straight forward.

 

[variant]

If you were going to A church I don't know why they should be preaching on " that I should believe in the various religions of the day." Does not sound like any Christian church I have heard of.....it was a Christian church, correct? If so, which one?

Well churches don't host arguments for one, I was a Catholic.

Over the years I did indeed attend various apologetic forums and talks hosted by my church, spoke with family members and the clergy themselves.

Why should I believe this? <- is the question I would ask, and it never seemed to take any more than that.

God does not wish....He determines.....sounds less and less like a Christian church....

Definition
Wish: Desire for something to happen.

If we posit determinism then there really isn't a matter to discuss.

So, you are unable to explain what you claim to be "simple and straight forward". So, be honest and say you simply don't believe....that is simple and straight forward.

I don't believe, not in your God or your religion. I thought that was quite clear, I let God speak for himself.

Your God would require me to place my faith in his surrogates.

I am an unbeliever.

 

[Jeshu]

What believers have to understand is that before we can be enlightened/touched by the truth of God's love we have to break free from all the lies that have us captive within. The sad truth is that Christian Churches throughout the world are riddled with people who believe lies about God, themselves and others. However I know from experiences that before someone can praise God in the Great Assembly they have to leave what is binding them down here on this earth by letting the truth of God's love take their spirit up in prayer and adoration. Religion stands in the way big time, while faith in God's loving truth get us through. So from this perspective the religion is guilty of keeping believers in Christ away from an encounter with God because the lies believed and the religious tradition they adhered to kept them from meeting The Truth of God's love, neither do such believers let the truth of God's love transform them from old into new, but such believers are either smitten by guilt, shame and fear and/or arrogantly think they are better than their neighbour.

So I believe it is good to meet as believers in Christ, but not to conform to a million more words and rules on top of the truth of the bible, nor to exult some people and lord it over other, not to serve God in a place made with hands, but to praise and adore the Creator God who saved us from our sins through Jesus Christ along with all time and all places in the Great Assembly upstairs. I reckon we should NEVER miss out on worshiping our Triune God like that, but sadly as of today, the Great Prostitute religion drinks the blood of all the saints and has severely undermined the power of the faith of the Scriptures past on to the body of believers 2000 years ago.

Religion has to die before the holy people will finally be free to worship God in spirit and in truth, this is why Christ's advise to deny ourselves and follow Him is much more important than conform to the religious traditions of the Christian Churches, for the Church does not save us but Jesus does, its best believers in God's truth remember that.


Daniel 12:7
The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

 

[civilwarbuff]

I don't believe, not in your God or your religion. I thought that was quite clear, I let God speak for himself.

Your God would require me to place my faith in his surrogates.

I am an unbeliever.

Pretty much as I thought. You might want to change your "faith" designation unless you don't understand the difference between agnostic and atheist...

Why should I believe this? <- is the question I would ask, and it never seemed to take any more than that.

So, you always looked to other people to define your beliefs but not to God or His Word.....No wonder you were disappointed...

Definition
Wish: Desire for something to happen.

If we posit determinism then there really isn't a matter to discuss.

Only people wish....God determines....sorry you don't know the difference....
However, if you would like to continue this discussion, start a thread in Christian Apologetics and please link me to it.....

 

[variant]

Pretty much as I thought. You might want to change your "faith" designation unless you don't understand the difference between agnostic and atheist...

Perhaps you don't.

Not believing in your God doesn't mean I am not open to the idea of a God.

An agnostic is someone who doesn't know whether or not there is a God, and that is me, I am agnostic.

An atheist is someone who lacks belief in God, and that is me I am an atheist.

I'm unconvinced and I lack sufficient knowledge to rule out God in general, not indecisive.

If God finds this distasteful he can speak up.

So, you always looked to other people to define your beliefs but not to God or His Word.....No wonder you were disappointed...

Oh no, cover to cover on multiple occasions. The Bible to me is evidence that people attempted to speak for God more problematically in the past than even the current folks who try.

Only people wish....God determines....sorry you don't know the difference....

A prescription for action is a wish not a determination, because the object is free to disobey or fall short.

If God doesn't have unfulfilled desires (wishes) we can not fall short of them, thus you suggest a sinless world.

So, something is wrong with your logic there or you are a part of the wrong religion.

 

[civilwarbuff]

If God finds this distasteful he can speak up.

He will, but you might not want to wait that long.....

Oh no, cover to cover on multiple occasions. The Bible to me is evidence that people attempted to speak for God more problematically in the past than even the current folks who try.

So, you don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God? 1 Cor 2:14......

A prescription for action is a wish not a determination, because the object is free to disobey or fall short.

Must be something you are quoting from some atheist text because it makes absolutely no sense at all.....

If God doesn't have unfulfilled desires (wishes) we can not fall short of them, thus you suggest a sinless world.

Same as above.....

So, something is wrong with your logic there or you are a part of the wrong religion.

Nope, neither....

 

[nerfherder]

The problem with churches and LGBT and womens issues has been talked about a lot in this thread and I've noticed that many are saying they've never heard it mentioned in their church. I beleive that because I don't recall it ever being mentioned in mine either but there's two things to look at in regards to that. One is that the church as a whole usually has plenty to say on the subjects. In fact I dare say all of them do and almost all are negative but wehther nor not that is right is up to you to decide.
The other thing is that there are indeed many, many churches out there that speak of it often and are quite nasty about it. Not just Westboro Baptist either. I've seen a few sermons from the megachurches that are downright mean when it comes to gays and women and there are always stories about smaller churches causing controversy over it.
I get where that guy is coming from when he brought it up here. It is probably very hard for an openly gay person to find an accepting church just as it is probably hard for a woman to find one that truly believes in equality. Finding that plus one that you believe is correct in their attitudes towards God, Jesus and life must be incredibly difficult.

 

[variant]

He will, but you might not want to wait that long.....

You believe in a being more fair and just than I am so I would never react to a threat that my honest disbelief would cause it to be angry with me or punish me.

Rather it sounds a lot more like what human beings might do to try to get me to believe out of fear.

Then again religion is free to be wrong about God being a just and kind being.

So, you don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God? 1 Cor 2:14......

No, I said I read the Bible, not that I believe it.

Must be something you are quoting from some atheist text because it makes absolutely no sense at all.....

I am quoting the fact that I know the difference between when someone wishes someone to do something and when someone determines someone do something.

You would like to play semantics on the issue for some reason that doesn't make any sense logically, and I am baffled at what you might be trying to prove.

 

[MennoSota]

No, I don't expect anything.

Making my own decisions and thinking for myself seems to either be the fact of the matter or the will of God.

God either speaks to me with his silence or he doesn't.

Or He writes a whole collection of books telling you details about Himself. Whether you choose to read them and apply them is, of course, another matter.

 

[variant]

Or He writes a whole collection of books telling you details about Himself. Whether you choose to read them and apply them is, of course, another matter.

I could be wrong, but I'll bet I have read a larger collection of books detailing the claims "God" makes about himself than you have.

 

[nerfherder]

So, you don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God? 1 Cor 2:14......

Dude made it clear he was agnostic so I'm not sure why you would ask that. Of course he doesn't believe it.

 

[MennoSota]

The arguments for what are supposedly Gods wishes and that I should believe in the various religions of the day.



I doubt it. My mindset comes through skepticism about everything you believe in and calmly and rationally approaching issues with as clear a head as I can manage. It's not a switch I can flip for you.

What is right and wrong has never been truly unclear to me, the problem has always been finding the will to act. I worry mostly about what I can do (what I can accomplish), and I act toward what I think is right and with a clear conscience.

LOL, skeptical rational thinking . Thanks for making me chuckle. It's easier to say prideful thinking you know.

 

[nerfherder]

Or He writes a whole collection of books telling you details about Himself. Whether you choose to read them and apply them is, of course, another matter.

The problem with this is that there are many books claiming to be the word of God. People find the one that speaks to them as the truth and sometimes people never find it. It is entirely possible that we are wrong about the Bible. Anyone who doesn't accept that possibility is fooling themselves. That doesn't mean it's wrong or even that I think it's wrong (for the most part I don't) but that there are a lot of ideas and opinions about God out there that many people need to sort through before they can truly believe.

 

[variant]

LOL, skeptical rational thinking . Thanks for making me chuckle. It's easier to say prideful thinking you know.

You can call me prideful all you like I trust my own judgement out of necessity.

I'm not the one who pretenses to speak for the almighty.

 

[civilwarbuff]

You believe in a being more fair and just than I am so I would never react to a threat that my honest disbelief would cause it to be angry with me or punish me.

Rather it sounds a lot more like what human beings might do to try to get me to believe out of fear.

Then again religion is free to be wrong about God being a just and kind being.

No, there is just this thing in Revelation about the sheep and the goats that you might want to brush up on......

No, I said I read the Bible, not that I believe it.

Again, you don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God? 1 Cor 2:14....you need to understand that verse and please tell me, if you would, what it means.

I am quoting the fact that I know the difference between when someone wishes someone to do something and when someone determines someone do something.

So, do you believe God can only wish and not determine?....because as I said earlier your statement makes no sense...

 

[civilwarbuff]

I could be wrong, but I'll bet I have read a larger collection of books detailing the claims "God" makes about himself than you have.

But you still don't understand 1 Cor 2:14?

 

[civilwarbuff]

It is entirely possible that we are wrong about the Bible. Anyone who doesn't accept that possibility is fooling themselves. That doesn't mean it's wrong or even that I think it's wrong (for the most part I don't) but that there are a lot of ideas and opinions about God out there that many people need to sort through before they can truly believe.

Something tells me that is not the stance of UMC. Would I be wrong?

 

[variant]

No, there is just this thing in Revelation about the sheep and the goats that you might want to brush up on......

I'm aware of what the Bible says, as I said I don't believe it, or in fact, it's characterization of how God will be angry with me if I do not.

Again, you don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God? 1 Cor 2:14....you need to understand that verse and please tell me, if you would, what it means.

It's one of the many insults to people whose minds question.

I can give you about 20 other examples if you would like?

So, do you believe God can only wish and not determine?....because as I said earlier your statement makes no sense...

I said wish because I meant wish, because what I was talking about were the supposed wishes of God, which consequently makes perfect sense in the case I used it in.

You went off on a tangent where you said God doesn't wish and I think you are wrong on that matter.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I trust my own judgement out of necessity.

Yep, pride.....

 

[variant]

Yep, pride.....

Even if I judged the bible to be correct I could not escape my own judgement.

Think about it for a second...