Is the Book of Revelation the only place in Scripture teaching eternal torment?

[DavidPT]

Your reasoning here is absurd, because you would have to impose a condition of Eternal Life in Satan to support the assertion, "satan, a being that has never died since being created..."

If anybody's reasoning is absurd here, it is not mine. The 2nd death means to die, literally, as if that person had never existed. Impossible to apply the 2nd death to satan if Revelation 20:10 records that he shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. You want us to believe 'shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' and 'the 2nd death' these are referring to the same thing. No they are not, because if they were, the fact the judgment recorded in verse 10 is not the same judgment recorded in verses 12-15, verse 10 would be saying this instead---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This is the second death.


And verses 14 and 15 would be saying this---And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Had each of those passages said those things, it would then be undeniable that what is recorded in verse 10 applies to what is recorded in verses 12-15, and vice-versa, except none of those verses record those things. That is adding to the text something not remotely found in the text.

Look at this again---And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Seriously, is that what verse 15 records? How can that not be a perfect example of adding something to the text that is not found within the text itself?

 

[P1LGR1M]

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


We can't apply this to the here and now, because even the righteous saved die eventually. Is the reason they die eventually because their soul sinneth? Therefore, this is referring to the 2nd death, which then is referring to what Jesus said per the following, the part I have underlined below.

No, it isn't referring to the second death.

It is referring to physical death of the soul, the person that does not keep the Law. In view is the death that the Law carried, physical death.

Read the entire chapter, and if you still want to argue that this refers to the second death I will be glad to show you why it doesn't in more detail.

If you think men receive the second death because they did not keep the Law, then you must equally conclude that men received eternal life by keeping the Law.

Is that the position you want to take?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

If anybody's reasoning is absurd here, it is not mine. The 2nd death means to die, literally, as if that person had never existed. Impossible to apply the 2nd death to satan if Revelation 20:10 records that he shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. You want us to believe 'shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' and 'the 2nd death' these are referring to the same thing. No they are not, because if they were, the fact the judgment recorded in verse 10 is not the same judgment recorded in verses 12-15, verse 10 would be saying this instead---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This is the second death.


And verses 14 and 15 would be saying this---And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Had each of those passages said those things, it would then be undeniable that what is recorded in verse 10 applies to what is recorded in verses 12-15, and vice-versa, except none of those verses record those things. That is adding to the text something not remotely found in the text.

Look at this again---And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Seriously, is that what verse 15 records? How can that not be a perfect example of adding something to the text that is not found within the text itself?

So you will not address the points in the responses?

You believe Satan has life?

Address the posts as I have yours. I addressed each point you tried to make and showed that your reasoning is absurd.

Did you have life before you were saved?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

If anybody's reasoning is absurd here, it is not mine.

No, I'm pretty sure it is yours.

Trying to argue that Satan will not experience the Second Death when Scripture states the Second Death is being cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan is—cast into the Lake of Fire?

Not very reasonable in my Book.


God bless.

 

[DavidPT]

No, it isn't referring to the second death.

It is referring to physical death of the soul, the person that does not keep the Law. In view is the death that the Law carried, physical death.

Read the entire chapter, and if you still want to argue that this refers to the second death I will be glad to show you why it doesn't in more detail.

If you think men receive the second death because they did not keep the Law, then you must equally conclude that men received eternal life by keeping the Law.

Is that the position you want to take?


God bless.

I can accept that I am maybe misapplying this passage, since that is indeed possible. Which would mean I might be better off not using that passage as support for what I'm arguing. Even if I take that passage out of the equation, I still have Matthew 10:28 to argue with, and Revelation 20:10, plus Revelation 20:12-15, to name few.

 

[DavidPT]

No, I'm pretty sure it is yours.

Trying to argue that Satan will not experience the Second Death when Scripture states the Second Death is being cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan is—cast into the Lake of Fire?

Not very reasonable in my Book.


God bless.

It is not reasonable to apply the 2nd death to satan in any manner. Why do you not grasp that a second death implies a first death? What would a first death be involving? Physical death of the body, something that has never happened to satan one single time from the time he was created up until now. Nor is it ever going to happen in the future, that satan will experience the first death, the physical death of the body. That only happens to humans, animals, insects, etc, IOW, Earth creatures, not spirit beings such as satan. You need the 2nd death to apply to satan so that you can feel justified applying 'shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' to that of verses 12-15 so that way it wouldn't equal cherry picking.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I can accept that I am maybe misapplying this passage, since that is indeed possible. Which would mean I might be better off not using that passage as support for what I'm arguing. Even if I take that passage out of the equation, I still have Matthew 10:28 to argue with, and Revelation 20:10, plus Revelation 20:12-15, to name few.

Actually you don't.

Matthew 10:28 teaches that God will destroy both soul (the conscious person, not some mythological third aspect of man's make-up) and body in Hell.

All men are already in a state of destruction. Jesus Christ came to the Lost (destroyed) Sheep of Israel.

And after all of the posts dealing with these verses, how you can still claim them as proof texts is beyond me.

I am still waiting for an answer to my question: does Satan now, or ever before, or ever will—have life?

Also: did you have life before you were saved?

I apologize if you have answered this/these in later posts, but until you answer them the ball is in your court.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It is not reasonable to apply the 2nd death to satan in any manner.

Not only is it reasonable it should be a matter of common knowledge in the Body.

You can't redefine the Second Death to be something it isn't:


Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


The Second Death is being cast into the Lake of Fire.

It really is that simple.

And Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire.

Hence—Satan suffers the Second Death.

Why do you not grasp that a second death implies a first death?

I explained that in quite a bit of detail, lol.

Are you just not reading the posts?

You are making physical death the "first death," when all of mankind is said to be dead whether they are physically alive or not.

John 6:53
King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Men can have life only through drinking the blood and eating of the flesh of the Son of Man. That means unless one believes in Christ they do not have life.

Satan never had opportunity to believe in Christ because that is not an option open to him. But he, like all of mankind, is dead unless they believe in Christ and receive the Life He came to bestow:


John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:18
King James Version

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Satan falls into the category of those who are already condemned and the only means of escaping judgment is to believe in Christ.

Satan believes not, thus he has not the Life God sent His Son to Bestow, thus he is...

...dead.

Just how hard is it to understand that?

When Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second Death, he will be in torment forever.

Men are conceived into death because they are conceived and born separated from God.

The Second Death is eternal separation from God.

That is what it means to be "twice dead."

What would a first death be involving?

I have explained it in numerous posts. It seems you are not bothering to read them.

Physical death of the body, something that has never happened to satan one single time from the time he was created up until now.

So Satan has Eternal Life?

Do you also believe Satan will be in the Eternal State?

Nor is it ever going to happen in the future, that satan will experience the first death, the physical death of the body.

Did you have life before you were saved?

The answer is no, you were dead and did not have life until you believed in Christ and were born again.

Why you can't understand that Satan is equally as dead as you were is beyond me.

That only happens to humans, animals, insects, etc, IOW, Earth creatures, not spirit beings such as satan.

Nonsense.

No one or no thing can have life except they believe in Christ.

No Old Testament Saint had life because they were not born again.

If you look at the original language of Genesis you will see that man was created a living soul, he didn't receive a living soul.

You will also see that the beasts and sea creatures were created living souls.

They had a body, and a spirit, and were living souls.

So I ask you again, you who were born with a spirit and a body, did you have life before you were born again?


God bless.

You need the 2nd death to apply to satan so that you can feel justified applying 'shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' to that of verses 12-15 so that way it wouldn't equal cherry picking.

 

[DavidPT]

So you will not address the points in the responses?

You believe Satan has life?

Address the posts as I have yours. I addressed each point you tried to make and showed that your reasoning is absurd.

Did you have life before you were saved?


God bless.

The best I can do is try and show why your reasoning is flawed in this particular case. Except you think it's my reasoning that is flawed here. Some of these things you are bringing up about satan, I have no idea how to adress some of that since none of that is how I myself view satan. For example, your post #100, some of it I can't follow because I have never viewed satan in that manner. In my view, satan is an angel, a fallen angel, and according to the following passage, in regards to angels in general, they can never die. The same is obviously true of satan, except you are trying to turn this into something spiritual rather than literal, involving satan.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

If they can't die anymore, meaning the saved not the lost, and that this makes them equal to angels, this means angels can't die, including satan. But you would have us believe, per your reasoning of what happens to unsaved humans in the lake of fire, this 'they' meant in verse 36 above also includes the lost since you argue that the 2nd death does not mean to die, but means the opposite, to never die, which then would be taking this verse out of context since this verse has zero to do with the unsaved and their fate in the next age. Even if it is not your intention to apply verse 36 to the unsaved as well, it doesn't matter since your interpretation of the 2nd death implies this in verse 36 above---Neither can they die any more.

Per your interpretation, the fact the unsaved dead are brought back to life, thus alive again, they can't die anymore after that since the 2nd death does not equal die again, it equals can't die anymore, therefore, like I already pointed out, makes the 'they' in verse 36 not to be meaning the saved only, but also meaning the unsaved---IOW--- Neither can they(the saved and the unsaved since the 2nd death equals can't die anymore) die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. thus one reason why your reasoning is flawed, that the 2nd death equals can't die anymore rather than can die again. It then makes nonsense out of verse 36 above since none of that is including any unsaved humans.

Is it or is it not your position, that after the unsaved are brought back to life via a bodily resurrection, that they can never die anymore, thus the 2nd death equals can't die anymore? Isn't that what Luke 20:36 says of the saved, that after being brought back to life, they can't die anymore? Why are you also applying that to the lost, that neither can they die anymore once they are brought back to life?

 

[P1LGR1M]

The best I can do is try and show why your reasoning is flawed in this particular case.

You mean by reiterating the same argument already addressed several times and ignore what I have said?

I'm sorry, but if you are interested in having a discussion then quote what I have said an then show why it is wrong.

And again I ask, did you have life before you were saved?


God bless.

 

[DavidPT]

I am still waiting for an answer to my question: does Satan now, or ever before, or ever will—have life?

I still don't know exactly what you mean by that. Life in what way, as pertaining to satan? What exactly is it that you attempting to try and prove here? That satan has experienced the first death, thus the 2nd death is applicable to him? The first death is literal, physical, so what does that have to do with satan?

Take Adam, for instance.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Most argue that since Adam didn't drop dead within 24 hours of eating this, this is meaning spiritual death not physical death. But, if we factor in 2 Peter 3:8 and apply it to the day meant in the above verse, he indeed physically died in the day he ate of it. Genesis 5:5 records that he lived 930 years then died, which means there was still 70 years left in this day and that he died before that day ended, exactly like the text indicates.

If there is a 2nd death, which implies there is a first death, and that there is spiritual death followed by physical death, that adds up to 2 deaths already, so why isn't it called the 3rd death in that case, rather than the 2nd death? My point is, the first death is either meaning physical death or spiritual death, and not both, and since it has to be meaning physical death, that alone is irrelavent in regards to satan. A first death does not apply to him, let alone a 2nd death.

A) The 2nd death equals to die again

B) The 2nd death equals to never die again

Neither can they die any more(Luke 20:36)

As to A) and B), only one of those can be true. Both can't be true. Only one of those is not contradicting Luke 20:36, the other one is. It is then a simple matter of choosing the one that isn't contradicting Luke 20:36.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


Is this passage teaching that only the saved will never die anymore once they are resurrected? Or is this passage teaching that both the saved and the unsaved will never die anymore once they are resurrected? (After all, both the saved and the unsaved will be resurrected, right?) And when one can properly answer that, which is super easy to answer, one will then know whether it's A) or B) that is not contradicting this passage.

I'll answer this first.

Is this passage teaching that only the saved will never die anymore once they are resurrected? Yes.

Or is this passage teaching that both the saved and the unsaved will never die anymore once they are resurrected? No.

Therefore, it is A) The 2nd death equals to die again--that is not contradicting Luke 20:35-36.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I still don't know exactly what you mean by that.

It's a very simple question: did you have life before you were saved.

When you answer that I will consider reading the rest of your post. As of now, though, you have refused to address the points I have made and keep reiterating an argument already addressed in detail.

This shows me you aren't bothering to read the posts and are not interested in discussion, just looking for someone to talk at.

Did you have life before you were saved? It's a yes or no question.


God bless.

 

[DavidPT]

This shows me you aren't bothering to read the posts and are not interested in discussion, just looking for someone to talk at.

Did you have life before you were saved? It's a yes or no question.

Yet, I have explained numerous times already, whatever the point you are trying to make in regards to satan, I do not view satan in that manner. The way I view the first death, I view it as literal physical death, therefore, it is ludricrous to think the first death is somehow applicable to satan. You need it to be so that you can insist the 2nd death is applicable to satan.

But to answer your question---No, I did not have life before I was saved, so what does that have to with satan? What about, for example, an infant that dies as an infant? How are you going to apply what you are trying to apply, to a scenario like that?

Unless you missed it, Revelation 20:11-15 does not record satan standing among the dead being judged according to works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. So, where is satan among any of these? Does it not say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, apparently meaning the dead which were in them, and that it calls this the second death? What does any of that have to do with satan? At this point in time satan would already be in the LOF, even before death and hell were cast into it. So, apparently, until death and hell are cast into it, it is not the second death yet.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Yet, I have explained numerous times already, whatever the point you are trying to make in regards to satan, I do not view satan in that manner. The way I view the first death, I view it as literal physical death, therefore, it is ludricrous to think the first death is somehow applicable to satan. You need it to be so that you can insist the 2nd death is applicable to satan.

Did you have life before you were saved?

But to answer your question---No, I did not have life before I was saved, so what does that have to with satan? What about, for example, an infant that dies as an infant? How are you going to apply what you are trying to apply, to a scenario like that?

Did you have life before you were saved?

Unless you missed it, Revelation 20:11-15 does not record satan standing among the dead being judged according to works.

Did you have life before you were saved?

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Did you have life before you were saved?

and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. So, where is satan among any of these?

Did you have life before you were saved?

Does it not say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, apparently meaning the dead which were in them, and that it calls this the second death?

Did you have life before you were saved?

What does any of that have to do with satan? At this point in time satan would already be in the LOF, even before death and hell were cast into it. So, apparently, until death and hell are cast into it, it is not the second death yet.

Did you have life before you were saved?


God bless.

 

[Kilk1]

I am speaking of the human spirit.
Soul and spirit are not presented as the same thing in the NT (Hebrews 4:12).

I see. So your position is that the body and soul aren't necessarily immortal, but the human spirit is. Am I representing you correctly? If so, is there a passage or passages you'd go to in order to establish human spirits live forever?

 

[P1LGR1M]

I see. So your position is that the body and soul aren't necessarily immortal, but the human spirit is. Am I representing you correctly? If so, is there a passage or passages you'd go to in order to establish human spirits live forever?

To be fair it would be equally necessary that Scripture be presented to establish that spirits cease to exist.


God bless.

 

[Kilk1]

Correct. When Jesus mentions tares he is talking about people, when He mentions chaff, I understand that to mean that part of us that needs to be removed. In the LOF there will be pain etc. but no death. according to Rev 20:10

Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [a person] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

How would you understand Romans 6:22-23? Verse 22 talks about Christians being set free from sin to instead serve God for eternal life. Then, the next verse, 23, says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (NKJV, emphasis added). Does this passage contrast the saved, to whom God gives eternal life, with the lost, who earn death? If so, wouldn't it teach the lost die?

 

[Kilk1]

Yes, certainly, but this does not say that those who practice lawlessness will be consumed by fire. But again, a few might. I don't think the Bible is interested in explaining all details about the fate of the unrighteous. I'm comfortable w/ uncertainty.

I see. If your view is that some, but not all, sinners will die, how would you understand Romans 6:22-23? Verse 22 talks about Christians being set free from sin to instead serve God for eternal life. Then, the next verse, 23, says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (NKJV, emphasis added). Does this passage contrast the saved, to whom God gives eternal life, with the lost, who earn death? If so, wouldn't it teach a fine line separating the ones who live eternally (the saved) from the ones who die (sinners)?

 

[Kilk1]

To be fair it would be equally necessary that Scripture be presented to establish that spirits cease to exist.


God bless.

That's fair (though, for clarification, I'd prefer the wording that people "die" rather than "cease to exist"). If neither of us can verify our beliefs with Scripture, than neither of us can claim either of our respective understandings is the Scriptural one, so you make a valid point.

I'm approaching the issue from a different angle, though, saying that if you're a sinner (in contrast to a saved Christian with God's gift of life), then you'll die, and one passage I'd use is Romans 6:22-23. Verse 22 talks about Christians being set free from sin to instead serve God for eternal life. Then, the next verse, 23, says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (NKJV, emphasis added). Does this passage contrast the saved, to whom God gives eternal life, with the lost, who earn death? If so, wouldn't it teach the lost die? I would interpret the passage literally unless passages can be provided to the contrary (such as if a passage were to claim the spirit-part of man is immortal).

Therefore, unless passages can be provided teaching a certain part of a person can never die but is inherently immortal, I would understand Romans 6:22-23 to teach sinners will literally die.

P.S. As I think about it, I actually do know of a passage that implies only God is inherently immortal, implying humans aren't—1 Timothy 6:13-16 (NKJV, emphasis mine):

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.​

 

[Clare73]

I see. So your position is that the body and soul aren't necessarily immortal,

I don't know about the soul, but the body is not immortal.

but the human spirit is. Am I representing you correctly? If so, is there a passage or passages you'd go to in order to establish human spirits live forever?

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23-24).
Our life does not cease with the death of our body, for our spirit is alive and with the Lord, and is rejoined with our spiritual (sinless, immortal, glorious) physical body at the second coming for the resurrection, as Jesus' resurrection body was physical (Luke 24:37-43).