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Is the Bible Without Error?

Is the Bible Without Error?


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Paul of Eugene OR

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I will consider the above a non-answer as you did not address my post.

Let me elaborate.

My answer depended on what the Gospels stand on---Eyewitness testimonies. If every eyewitness testimony lined up 100%, I would be the skeptic here.

You are sitting on hill #743 and I am sitting on hill #565. A mountain divides our two hills but we can see portions of the same valley. You see 100 tanks coming down the central corridor and I see 50. I send in a location of grid coordinates CV 123 456, and you send in a location of grid coordinates CV 1234 4567.

How have you contradicted my report to higher headquarters? Or did I just send a false report? We are in the same unit on the same frequency. Should we argue who is right and who is wrong?

No to all of the above questions. I see 50 of the 100 tanks you properly identified. I gave the same grid locations but a 6 digit grid. You gave an 8 digit grid to the same target which is more accurate given you are closer and can see more of the target area.

Peter heard Christ say second time the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] would crow. The rest around the camp fire heard that a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] would crow.

From the perspectives of the actual eyewitnesses they gave a faithful account. Just as in the example of the inscriptions on the cross of Christ. 4 Gospel accounts and not one matched. You would think men who broke bread together could get their stories straight, right? It did not work like that at all. The fact is we have integrity in the eyewitness accounts as the men led to write the Gospels gave truthful accounts. Not rationalized, synthesized or polished....honest eyewitness accounts.

I'm not questioning the sincerity or the reliability of the gospel accounts. I merely question the doctrine of inerrancy. One gospel claims Jesus predicted, and the prediction was fulfilled, that the rooster would not crow until Peter denied Jesus three times. The other gospel claims Jesus predicted, and the prediction was fulfilled, that it would be the second time that the rooster crowed and the denial occurred. These two narratives are inconsistent in the detail about how many times the rooster crowed and whether or not the rooster crowed before the three denials had been completed. This is not inerrancy.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think we can agree that the Gospel message as presented in Holy Scriptures is both infallible and inerrant in presentation?

The Scriptures communicate the Gospel infallibly yes, and the truth of the Gospel is indeed inerrant.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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RDKirk

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The doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture is foundational to evangelical faith...
Or is it????!!

What it says about itself:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness

Scripture is absolutely reliable when "used as directed," that is for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.

Used for other purposes, scripture makes no claims for itself.
 
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RDKirk

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Well, to begin with, the Bible has internal discrepancies. Would you like me to start listing them?

That depends on your epistemology. We Westerners are steeped in Greek epistemology that dotes on physical details.

Middle easterners, from ancient times until even today use a different epistemology--they have a basically different way of determining "truth" (which I put into quotes deliberately). South Asians and East Asians (Chinese and Japanese, for instance) yet have their own epistemologies--different ways of discerning "truth."

Here is a fairly recent example: A few years ago, Hezbollah fired four missiles from Gaza into Israel. Witnesses testified uniformly: Four missiles, all visible in the air at the same time; three missiles were fired nearly simultaneously, the fourth followed a split second later, but all four were visible in the air at the same time. There was an Arab news photographer who caught the event, but in the cycling of his motorized shutter releases, three missiles were in one frame and the fourth missile was in a subsequent frame.

But since he had seen "four missiles in the air," and everyone testified "four missiles in the air," he Photoshopped his image so that it showed three missiles and then a trailing missile in the same picture. It showed what everyone actually saw. When this was discovered, he was uniformly criticized...in the West. But not in the Middle East or in the Far East. This is an illustration of what in Greek epistemology is a "discrepancy" that is not at all a discrepancy in Eastern epistemology.

Scripture is not Western epistemology. For that matter, God's own viewpoint certainly is not Greek epistemology.

If you were to ask God "how did Judas die?" God's eternal viewpoint would consider Judas' death in spiritual terms: Judas died in his sin...and both scriptural references are in agreement that he died in his sin.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think we can agree that the Gospel message as presented in Holy Scriptures is both infallible and inerrant in presentation?

To elaborate on my prior post/statement: My problem with biblical inerrantism, such as it is, is that it makes the truth and reliability of the Gospel to be dependent on there being no internal inconsistencies on any point, no matter how tiny, in the biblical texts--nothing in regard to small details, or mathematical, historical, or naturalistic details. Such that if, at any point, even at the tiniest of details if the Bible has any inconsistency then it demands the Gospel itself be rendered false, the truth of Christ thrown out, and therefore shipwrecking our faith in its entirety. I have a problem with that.

I believe that the divine and sacred truths of Holy Scripture, in the communication of God's Law and Gospel, in the declaration and truth of Jesus Christ and presenting Christ our Lord to us in its confession, reception, and proclamation are very much unfailing and without error. There is no error as pertains to Jesus Christ, to God's holy commandments, and to the promises of our salvation. When we read or hear the sacred word of Holy Scripture we can therefore be confident that we are hearing God's word, we are hearing the Word, Jesus Christ Himself, and that through this word and Word our faith in Him is built up, strengthened, nourished, sustained, etc, as the Apostle writes that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17); both in the preached word of the Gospel, in the Gospel as contained in the written words of Scripture, and in the Sacraments, etc there is indeed true and real faith by the power of the Holy Spirit Himself to affect our salvation.

To this end I do not believe the popular and common doctrine of inerrancy as taught in the modern day is beneficial to the holding fast to the truth of the Gospel, but is a source and cause of putting stumbling blocks and pitfalls, of placing a yolk upon the Faithful, that is more likely to cause the shipwrecking of faith than preserve and persevere the faith. If someone has been raised to believe in such inerrancy and, believing certain things about the Bible which ultimately are not true, or that the things they've been told about Scripture do not ultimately mesh and have basis in reality, the result is an abandonment of faith in Christ; because upon building a house on a foundation of sand any wave or wind can cause it to collapse. Our faith must be built upon the solid foundation of Jesus Christ and His Gospel, and Scripture serving to prop up, strengthen, and support that; rather than building our faith upon a particular view of the Bible which may not ultimately have strength at all.

If I have built my faith upon a foundation of biblical inerrancy and I come across where in Scripture we see in one place it says David led an army of one particular size, and in another place it says David led an army of a different size then we have an inconsistency that can shipwreck the faith--even though such a detail is so remarkably unimportant and irrelevant to the truths of God or to our faith in Jesus Christ our Lord. Does such a detail change the fact that Christ was born, that He lived, that He suffered under Pontius Pilate, died, was buried, and that on the third day rose from the dead in victory over sin, death, hell, and the devil? Absolutely not. Does it change the fact that Christ has told us, "Love one another" or "Love your enemy as yourself" No, it doesn't change it at all. Christ is still Lord regardless of how many men David led into one particular battle at one particular time. Christ is still Lord regardless of whether He gave His Sermon on a mount (Matthew 5:1) or on a plain (Luke 6:17).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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redleghunter

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I'm not questioning the sincerity or the reliability of the gospel accounts. I merely question the doctrine of inerrancy. One gospel claims Jesus predicted, and the prediction was fulfilled, that the rooster would not crow until Peter denied Jesus three times. The other gospel claims Jesus predicted, and the prediction was fulfilled, that it would be the second time that the rooster crowed and the denial occurred. These two narratives are inconsistent in the detail about how many times the rooster crowed and whether or not the rooster crowed before the three denials had been completed. This is not inerrancy.
What you are pointing out is not even an inerrancy issue. None of the accounts are wrong or contradict information in the other accounts.

There would be a conflict in the narrative if one or another account had the third denial after the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed. There is no evidence in any of the accounts this occurred.
 
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redleghunter

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To elaborate on my prior post/statement: My problem with biblical inerrantism, such as it is, is that it makes the truth and reliability of the Gospel to be dependent on there being no internal inconsistencies on any point, no matter how tiny, in the biblical texts--nothing in regard to small details, or mathematical, historical, or naturalistic details. Such that if, at any point, even at the tiniest of details if the Bible has any inconsistency then it demands the Gospel itself be rendered false, the truth of Christ thrown out, and therefore shipwrecking our faith in its entirety. I have a problem with that.
This is not Biblical inerrancy. At least the Evangelical definition as per post #20 where I posted the Chicago Statement on Biblical inerrancy.

What you describe is those who hold to a Biblical manuscript perfection. Meaning those who argue and wrest the text to explain away a word position, grammar or copyist error like taking Hebrew numbers and transposing them when translated into another language.

Biblical inerrancy addresses the autographs. Not every manuscript and not every translation.

Yet given the amount of manuscripts we have extant, we can determine these copyist or grammatical errors. By most scholars the accuracy rate between the NT manuscripts is 99.5%. No other manuscript evidence from antiquity even comes close in volume nor accuracy.
 
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redleghunter

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Such that if, at any point, even at the tiniest of details if the Bible has any inconsistency then it demands the Gospel itself be rendered false, the truth of Christ thrown out, and therefore shipwrecking our faith in its entirety. I have a problem with that.
This above is actually Biblical criticism promoted as early as the late 19th century. It was a liberal theological movement and most of these adherents to modernism also questioned the Deity of Christ, the Virgin birth, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 
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redleghunter

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* A fallen celestial is plausible, believable. The other exaggerations are not.

* Research the Documentary Hypothesis.

* Men wrote the Bible and made mistakes. Jesus didn't write anything lest it become a fetish.
The first one is an unsubstantiated claim.

The second ? JEDP is refuted skepticism. The premise of JEDP is that miracles cannot happen so we will explain them away. There were thousands of witnesses to Jesus's miracles.

The third is another unsubstantiated claim.

Which leads me to the question...Do you believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead bodily?
 
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Thedictator

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Thedictator

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Not that I'm upset with you. More like I'm just bored atm, so I guess I'll respond to this post even though most days I would simply ignore it.

But let me ask you: If I don't believe in the Bible, why would I have dedicated my entire life to studying it? Why would I have spent the last thirty years making it my top priority in life? Why would I have sacrificed everything, from the woman I married to the jobs I held to the minimal lifestyle I keep, just so I could have as much time as possible to study His word?

Yes why would you do that for a book you say is flawed and in error?
 
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Thedictator

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You mean like when I tell someone about Christ? It's the "spoken word of God"?
Yes, If you are speaking from the truth of the Bible, no if you are saying things that you just made up but want to be true but is really falsehood.
 
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Blade

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In my simple world lol.. we have GOD and man. We all know man.. right? So..was there enough MAN to mess up what a GOD had to say? No. See for ME... I have found.. if I believe what that word says.. FAITH in HIS word. Not doubt.. to this day.. for ME it has never failed. .. Hes real..

Thats the part that gets me here. Were talking about a BOOK about a God you believe in? Do you know and in love ok.. dont you know He is real? I am sure some of you had this happen. You pray you ask HIm and He points you to the BIBLE...gives you a verse you never read or heard of before. For me.. why would He point to a lie? Jesus quoted it as if HE said it.. as if HE is the living word.

For me.. to doubt the word.. I have to doubt He is even real and.. to late for that lol. Its hard... now days if you listen to much to one side you can easily get lost. You have to walk by faith.. He is SO REAL! He wont let you fall..fail. Seek the truth.. its HIM! See so many dont get it.. HE IS REAL! So.. ask if you get stuck. Know He heard you and wait.. He will answer. Just dont treat HIM like a man.. He is not.. nor thinks like one.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Yes why would you do that for a book you say is flawed and in error?

I was asking you. You seemed to know me such that you could openly classify me as a "false prophet" in your first post. So let me ask you again since you have so much discernment about me. Tell me specifically why I would be doing those things? Again, I am not angry, but if you are an authority on who I am enough to call me a false prophet, then tell me why I would be doing these things, since you know so much about me.
 
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Neogaia777

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The doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture is foundational to evangelical faith...
Or is it????!!
Where apparent contradictions appear, it is on either one side or the other of an issue that has two sides, like most do...

From God's perspective, their is not actually two sides to everything, but only one, and to him what we call contradictions, if interpreted correctly, are truths in actuality...

Everything of man is two sided and bipolar, God, only has one pole involved in his thinking...

God Bless!
 
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Petros2015

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Well here is a Source: There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament. ( Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability | carm )

Well, I may stand corrected. I think 'manuscript' is probably a bit of an unintentional exaggeration through. When I hear manuscript I think of a more or less (at least 50%) complete copy, not a business-card sized fragment.

Anyway, learned something today.

Biblical manuscript - Wikipedia

"The earliest manuscript of a New Testament text is a business-card-sized fragment from the Gospel of John, Rylands Library Papyrus P52, which may be as early as the first half of the 2nd century. The first complete copies of single New Testament books appear around 200, and the earliest complete copy of the New Testament, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to the 4th century."

So its kind of misleading for your source to say you have 5000 copies when really you have 2 fragments from the 2nd century. By the 3rd or 4th century you probably have what I would consider to be few copies. (Donald? Is that you?)

Caspar René Gregory published another cataloging system in 1908 in Die griechischen Handschriften des Neuen Testaments, which is the system still in use today. Gregory divided the manuscripts into four groupings: papyri, uncials, minuscules, and lectionaries.

The wiki doesn't cite the source well, (just says Aland p81 but I believe it's coming from these guys)

Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece :: Home


 
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Colter

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The first one is an unsubstantiated claim.

The second ? JEDP is refuted skepticism. The premise of JEDP is that miracles cannot happen so we will explain them away. There were thousands of witnesses to Jesus's miracles.

The third is another unsubstantiated claim.

Which leads me to the question...Do you believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead bodily?

The doctrine of the inspiration of scripture is a false doctrine. Its the kind of thing that was used to reject Jesus.

The Documentary Hypothesis is widely accepted outside of the Bible worship Bubble wherein adherents are just not honest people.

Yes, I believe the Son of God came to earth, revealed the Father and taught the original, pre-cross gospel that ALL men and women of earth are in fact the sons and daughters of the Living God. Not just an arrogant, self proclaimed "chosen people". He laid down his life and took it up again, returning in a new form. He then went back to his place on high.

The Father revealed in the life of Christ was very different than the OT God created largely in the image of those who wrote the OT.
 
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Petros2015

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This, I thought, was very interesting

Codex Sinaiticus - Wikipedia

It lists the verses that were omitted, not many.

I would also note that it contains Shepherd of Hermes and Macabees (books 1 to 4), maybe some others.

Have you read them? They are available online.
 
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Galilee63

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If hearts pray to Jesus God and The Holy Spirit and to Mother Mary in complete trust prior to opening up Gods most Precious Holy Sacred Word then one after making The Sign of The Cross should receive thru The Holy Spirit Holy Discernment on every Holy aspect contained within Gods Holy Word if not rushing

Praise be to Jesus

Glory be to The Father and to The Son and to The Holy Spirit As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end Amen
 
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redleghunter

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Well here is a Source: There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament. ( Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability | carm )

Ok where is your source?
Just not the Greek manuscripts.

To date, over 5800 Greek New Testament fragments have been found (Taylor, 2012). Over 10,000 Latin New Testament manuscripts dating from the 2nd to 16th century have been located. The earliest are in fragments that cover a substantial amount of the New Testament. Some manuscripts have also been found in a number of other languages, including Coptic, Syriac, Gothic, and Arabic. Taking all languages together, over 25,000 handwritten copies of the New Testament have been recovered. But there is more. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced by quotes from the ancient church fathers. “So extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament” (Metzger & Ehrman, 2005).

The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts
 
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