Is the Bible Without Error?

[RDKirk]

God would also say he died by hanging himself. God sees both things you know. He sees historical events and sees the spiritual results or aspects of those events. This is a physical world he created with a spiritual aspect.

Judas' body has decomposed to basic molecules spread out over the entire earth. It's possible we've taken breaths of atoms from Judas' body.

God would say that Judas' method of death was irrelevant.

Scripture is God-inspired. God thought the method of Judas' death was relevant to His interests, there wouldn't be two different versions in scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

There's no manuscript evidence of variation in the Mark narrative.



Eye witness accounts are regularly found to be in error on minor points. You use the word "infallibility" . . . it is true infallibility is questioned by the contradiction. But of course in the Rooster story the little detail of whether there was one or two crowings doesn't really matter to us today . . . except to show we should be careful to not say "inerrant" or "infallible", since slight error and slight failing is demonstrated.



So you admit a witness can be credible while not being inerrant or infallible? Perhaps that's progress.



Exactly.



I have no problem accepting them as evidence; only with claiming they are inerrant or infallible.

Please posit your theological definitions of 'inerrant' and 'infallible' here. Frankly, I think we are talking passed each other operating from two different understandings. If you want to see mine, see post #20.

What I am getting from your posts is that human beings, even the Gospel writers--although they were Inspired to write the texts, they themselves as fallen hu-mans make errors and are fallible by nature. Did I get close to your approach?

If this is indeed your view I would say: yes these were obviously not perfect men, and they readily admitted such by reporting their failures warts and all. However, when we speak of Biblical inerrancy and infallibility we are not discussing the men with the pen. But the men with the pen who faithfully transmit the Inspired message. Doing so in accordance to their education, language, and culture etc.

 

[GUANO]

Even Jeremiah blatantly accuses the Priests and Scribes of fabricating the Torah.

I think the Torah in particular has "issues" but it is a very important work.

If what Jeremiah said in prophetic utterance is true, that God never made any covenant with Israel concerning animal sacrifice, then the possibilities this brings up are quite out of this world...

 

[redleghunter]

The Bible has Jesus preaching the gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven for 3 years before he was crucified. The religion of Jesus came into conflict with the religion of Judaism. So they finally had enough and tried to stop him. After Jesus left, the religion OF Jesus became a religion ABOUT Jesus as the original gospel was forgotten in the dust of the spectacular resurrection. Peter and others interpreted the meaning of the cross and the purpose of the incarnation selfishly through the lens of his old religious beliefs about blood sacrifices to theoretically please a national deity. Paul took the baton and ran with it making compromises to the Pagan world for the sake of numbers.

This is an incorrect summary of the New Testament. Here's why...Jesus while preaching the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom of God/Heaven also said, during such dialogues, to His disciples thus:

Matthew 16:21

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed , and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 17:9

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead .

Matthew 17:22-23

[17:22] And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: [17:23] And they shall kill him , and the third day he shall be raised again . And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:18-19

[20:18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, [20:19] And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him : and the third day he shall rise again .


Matthew 26:2

Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Matthew 26:31-32

[26:31] Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd , and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. [26:32] But after I am risen again , I will go before you into Galilee.

Mark 8:31

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again .

Mark 9:9

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead .

Mark 9:31

For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him ; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:33-34

[10:33] Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: [10:34] And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him : and the third day he shall rise again .

Mark 12:7-8

[12:7] But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him , and the inheritance shall be our's. [12:8] And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

Mark 14:8

She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying .

Mark 14:27-28

[14:27] And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd , and the sheep shall be scattered. [14:28] But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.

Mark 14:41

And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Luke 9:22

Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day .

Luke 9:44

Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men .

Luke 18:31-33

[18:31] Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. [18:32] For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: [18:33] And they shall scourge him, and put him to death : and the third day he shall rise again .

Luke 20:14-15

[20:13] Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son : it may be they will reverence him when they see him. [20:14] But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him , that the inheritance may be ours. [20:15] So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

Luke 24:6-7

[24:6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, [24:7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again .

John 3:14

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up :

John 8:28

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man , then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 10:17-18

[10:17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life , that I might take it again . [10:18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself . I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again . This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 12:7,:23-24, 32-34

[12:7] Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. [12:23] And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. [12:24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [12:32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Now compare the Gospel as the apostle Paul confirms in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15: NKJV

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

I know, there is a theory that the Gospel commanded by Christ in Luke 24:44-53 and confirmed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, is somehow in contention with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God/Heaven. They are not in contention with one another. We need one to achieve the other.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is one of Perfection. Capital "P" for this reason as Jesus points out in Matthew chapter 5:

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.(Matthew 5:48)

The Kingdom of God/Heaven is one of perfection. We puny hu-mans must be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect. Who has been the only Person to walk this earth who is perfect. Jesus Christ. Who laid down His own life and rose from the dead so that we may be like Him at the Resurrection? Jesus Christ. Both Gospels are in harmony as the focal point is Christ Jesus who died for us and then rose from the dead with the Promised Hope of eternal life.

The apostles knew this well. As we see the apostle Paul continued to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom as he was preaching the Gospel of Grace as late as Acts 28:

Acts 28: NKJV

23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.

[...]

30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.


Paul was preaching the Kingdom of God and also Christ crucified and risen. Why?

Both are in harmony. The Kingdom is the perfection of God. Jesus became that perfection and those of us who are in Him will share the reward of eternal life.

 

[redleghunter]

Even Jeremiah blatantly accuses the Priests and Scribes of fabricating the Torah.

I think the Torah in particular has "issues" but it is a very important work.

If what Jeremiah said in prophetic utterance is true, that God never made any covenant with Israel concerning animal sacrifice, then the possibilities this brings up are quite out of this world...

Passage please. I would like to see it in context. Thanks.

 

[redleghunter]

Peter and others interpreted the meaning of the cross and the purpose of the incarnation selfishly through the lens of his old religious beliefs about blood sacrifices to theoretically please a national deity. Paul took the baton and ran with it making compromises to the Pagan world for the sake of numbers.

Or perhaps Peter and the apostles knew this:

Isaiah 53: NKJV

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.


4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Of course the apostles would know the above well as Jesus opened their minds to the Scriptures:

Luke 24: NKJV

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem> until you are endued with power from on high.

 

[GUANO]

verse concerning sacrifices is Jeremiah 7:

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward."

And the scripture concerning the 'lying scribes' is Jeremiah 8:8:

"How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain."

The controversy with the scripture above is that the word translated to law is 'torah' and the word translated to vain is more commonly translated as 'lie' or 'deceit', opposed to only 5 times it has been translated into 'vain'... This one has been debated among scholars for a long time.

None of this would make me think that the Torah is not foundational to the Canon as a whole.

Whether or not some of it was penned with 'deceitful' intentions appears to only add more 'awe' into the whole thing. For instance, there are complex rites and rituals described in Leviticus and Deut that Christ fulfilled. Were those rites divinely inspired from the beginning or did God simply have mercy and choose to manifest the faith of the believers?

I don't necessarily believe any of that, but it's food for thought =P

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It's telling that the same people who don't accept innerancy are the same people who do accept and even promote homosexuality, illegal immigration, and false gods, such as Allah.

When trust in God's word is eroded, human reason is all that's left. The "knowledge of good and evil", which is nothing less than the desire to self-govern, leaves one's skills of reason damaged (see Romans 1) which is why they fall of the wrong side of every argument.

To claim inerrancy in the face of demonstrated error is to erode the faith in the one making the claim. This is as much a source of mistrust in God's word as any other. How can one really trust the preaching of someone who makes that elementary mistake?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Please posit your theological definitions of 'inerrant' and 'infallible' here. Frankly, I think we are talking passed each other operating from two different understandings. If you want to see mine, see post #20.

I'm thinking of the standard "Plenary Verbal" inspiration theory, as described in what is called the "Chicago statement". The one that says the Bible was miraculously preserved from having any errors of any sort in it.

 

[Colter]

This is an incorrect summary of the New Testament. Here's why...Jesus while preaching the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom of God/Heaven also said, during such dialogues, to His disciples thus:

Matthew 16:21

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed , and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 17:9

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead .

Matthew 17:22-23

[17:22] And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: [17:23] And they shall kill him , and the third day he shall be raised again . And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:18-19

[20:18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, [20:19] And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him : and the third day he shall rise again .


Matthew 26:2

Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Matthew 26:31-32

[26:31] Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd , and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. [26:32] But after I am risen again , I will go before you into Galilee.

Mark 8:31

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again .

Mark 9:9

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead .

Mark 9:31

For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him ; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:33-34

[10:33] Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: [10:34] And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him : and the third day he shall rise again .

Mark 12:7-8

[12:7] But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him , and the inheritance shall be our's. [12:8] And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

Mark 14:8

She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying .

Mark 14:27-28

[14:27] And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd , and the sheep shall be scattered. [14:28] But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.

Mark 14:41

And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Luke 9:22

Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day .

Luke 9:44

Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men .

Luke 18:31-33

[18:31] Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. [18:32] For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: [18:33] And they shall scourge him, and put him to death : and the third day he shall rise again .

Luke 20:14-15

[20:13] Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son : it may be they will reverence him when they see him. [20:14] But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him , that the inheritance may be ours. [20:15] So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

Luke 24:6-7

[24:6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, [24:7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again .

John 3:14

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up :

John 8:28

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man , then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 10:17-18

[10:17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life , that I might take it again . [10:18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself . I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again . This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 12:7,:23-24, 32-34

[12:7] Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. [12:23] And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. [12:24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [12:32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Now compare the Gospel as the apostle Paul confirms in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15: NKJV

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

I know, there is a theory that the Gospel commanded by Christ in Luke 24:44-53 and confirmed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, is somehow in contention with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God/Heaven. They are not in contention with one another. We need one to achieve the other.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is one of Perfection. Capital "P" for this reason as Jesus points out in Matthew chapter 5:

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.(Matthew 5:48)

The Kingdom of God/Heaven is one of perfection. We puny hu-mans must be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect. Who has been the only Person to walk this earth who is perfect. Jesus Christ. Who laid down His own life and rose from the dead so that we may be like Him at the Resurrection? Jesus Christ. Both Gospels are in harmony as the focal point is Christ Jesus who died for us and then rose from the dead with the Promised Hope of eternal life.

The apostles knew this well. As we see the apostle Paul continued to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom as he was preaching the Gospel of Grace as late as Acts 28:

Acts 28: NKJV

23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.

[...]

30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.


Paul was preaching the Kingdom of God and also Christ crucified and risen. Why?

Both are in harmony. The Kingdom is the perfection of God. Jesus became that perfection and those of us who are in Him will share the reward of eternal life.

Indeed Jesus did make prophetic statements about laying down his life and taking it up again. But that's not the Gospel. The "good news" was sonship with God, salvation by faith. After Jesus left they interpreted the cross as a Pagan human sacrifice required by God for the sins of the world. God has always been forgiving, the tragic rejection of the creator Son was never a requirement for forgivness in the original gospel.

 

[Colter]

Or perhaps Peter and the apostles knew this:

Isaiah 53: NKJV

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.


4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Of course the apostles would know the above well as Jesus opened their minds to the Scriptures:

Luke 24: NKJV

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem> until you are endued with power from on high.

Jesus has been forced into OT prophesies that had applied to other issues, but those that converted to the Jesus movement tried to justify their faith in Jesus by interpreting prophesies to apply to Jesus.

 

[redleghunter]

Indeed Jesus did make prophetic statements about laying down his life and taking it up again. But that's not the Gospel. The "good news" was sonship with God, salvation by faith. After Jesus left they interpreted the cross as a Pagan human sacrifice required by God for the sins of the world. God has always been forgiving, the tragic rejection of the creator Son was never a requirement for forgivness in the original gospel.

Bolded from your quote above. Where exactly are getting this notion the apostles were unfaithful by transmitting the Gospel of the crucified and Risen Christ?

Which NT books do you consider divinely inspired. That might help our conversation. Thanks.

For example, is the Gospel from Matthew inspired in your canon? This is what Jesus said in chapter 26:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

And here Jesus tells His disciples what to proclaim :

Luke 24: King James Version (KJV)

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus has been forced into OT prophesies that had applied to other issues, but those that converted to the Jesus movement tried to justify their faith in Jesus by interpreting prophesies to apply to Jesus.

On what authority do you base such an assertion?

 

[Colter]

On what authority do you base such an assertion?

By the fact that the Jews don't interpret some of the prophecies applied to the Messiah the way Christians do.

 

[Thedictator]

Codex Sinaiticus - Wikipedia

It lists the verses that were omitted, not many.

First I try not to use Wikipedia, but we know what was omitted, because of the other Thousands of Copies that we have. So that does not change anything about inerrancy.

 

[redleghunter]

By the fact that the Jews don't interpret some of the prophecies applied to the Messiah the way Christians do.

The first Christians were Jews. Not seeing the logic in your statement.

You claim the Jewish disciples made up a human sacrifice gospel and now you are saying the same Jews who were Christians had a different view?

 

[Colter]

Bolded from your quote above. Where exactly are getting this notion the apostles were unfaithful by transmitting the Gospel of the crucified and Risen Christ?

Which NT books do you consider divinely inspired. That might help our conversation. Thanks.

For example, is the Gospel from Matthew inspired in your canon? This is what Jesus said in chapter 26:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

And here Jesus tells His disciples what to proclaim :

Luke 24: King James Version (KJV)

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

I don't consider ANY cannon books to be inspired. They were written by men.

The Matthew quote doesn't really say what people think. While the cross was an act of Love, it was never a requirement for forgivness. It wasn't a sin offering.

 

[Colter]

The first Christians were Jews. Not seeing the logic in your statement.

You claim the Jewish disciples made up a human sacrifice gospel and now you are saying the same Jews who were Christians had a different view?

I didn't say they "made it up", it was a sincere speculative conclusion. But there was division among he apostles, not all were crazy about Pauls direction.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't consider ANY cannon books to be inspired. They were written by men.

The Matthew quote doesn't really say what people think. While the cross was an act of Love, it was never a requirement for forgivness. It wasn't a sin offering.

What do you base your "considerations " exactly?

For example you say the cross was an act of love. Where do you get this information?

You must have some texts you consider authoritative to test truth claims.

 

[redleghunter]

I didn't say they "made it up", it was a sincere speculative conclusion. But there was division among he apostles, not all were crazy about Pauls direction.

All the apostles preached Christ crucified and risen as the Gospel. Not just Paul. The division you speak of was a 19th century theory. Which has come back in our time.

Peter proclaimed the same Gospel Jesus proclaimed in Luke 24 and Paul proclaimed in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Peter 1: King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

You would also have to add John to the list who saw the blood of Christ as atoning.

1 John 1: King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So which apostle or disciple of Christ holds your view? Peter, Paul and John refute your notion.