Is That Guy Really a Christian?!

[masmpg]

Is that why people justify being a meddlesome busybody in the matters of other men's lives?

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.

What happens when there is a difference of opinion of what constitutes sin? This situation had major consequences in my life. My own brother sabotaged my marriage plans to save me from sin (in his opinion). He is no longer in my life as a result.

Yah save me from so-called Christians that are trying to save me from being in sin in their opinion!

This is what the bible is for. The bible defines every important word needed for Christians to live Godly lives. The bible defines sin in 1John:3:4: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." No matter how mankind defines sin, this is how God defines it through His inspired word. Sin is the transgression of God's law. Anything outside of this should be made a matter or prayer that the Comforter will convict the conscience of those in the fault.

 

[Yahu_]

This is what the bible is for. The bible defines every important word needed for Christians to live Godly lives. The bible defines sin in 1John:3:4: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." No matter how mankind defines sin, this is how God defines it through His inspired word. Sin is the transgression of God's law. Anything outside of this should be made a matter or prayer that the Comforter will convict the conscience of those in the fault.

My point is, it is the role of a watchman to sound a warning. It is NOT the role of a watchman to drag someone kicking and screaming behind the walls because that watchman thinks he saw a wolf. And on top of that, it is someone with the role of a prophet to sound that warning. To many operate as 'false prophets' and appoint themselves as watchmen over their brethren and usurp false authority over them.

Giving a warning and operating as a meddlesome busybody are two different things.

 

[masmpg]

My point is, it is the role of a watchman to sound a warning. It is NOT the role of a watchman to drag someone kicking and screaming behind the walls because that watchman thinks he saw a wolf. And on top of that, it is someone with the role of a prophet to sound that warning. To many operate as 'false prophets' and appoint themselves as watchmen over their brethren and usurp false authority over them.

Giving a warning and operating as a meddlesome busybody are two different things.

I was responding to the statement "What happens when there is a difference of opinion of what constitutes sin?" The bible definition is a great bottom line instead of trying to figure out if the transgression is sin or not.

I hear what you are saying about the false watchmen, but I see the other side of that coin. There are not enough watchmen that are actually called to sound the alarm, and that is why the church is in the condition it is in. Far too much world is totally accepted as "the church" when the bible forbids much of it. I see people running away from the organized church because of the lack of true piety and reverence for God. Far too many whole denominations are pushing a "new" and exciting thing they call the "gospel", when it is not. I have been reading articles about people who are really desiring the pure milk, and meat of the word instead of the false excitement for filthy lucre we are seeing today.

 

[Yahu_]

I was responding to the statement "What happens when there is a difference of opinion of what constitutes sin?" The bible definition is a great bottom line instead of trying to figure out if the transgression is sin or not.

I hear what you are saying about the false watchmen, but I see the other side of that coin. There are not enough watchmen that are actually called to sound the alarm, and that is why the church is in the condition it is in. Far too much world is totally accepted as "the church" when the bible forbids much of it. I see people running away from the organized church because of the lack of true piety and reverence for God. Far too many whole denominations are pushing a "new" and exciting thing they call the "gospel", when it is not. I have been reading articles about people who are really desiring the pure milk, and meat of the word instead of the false excitement for filthy lucre we are seeing today.

IMO, it is because of the abundance of false watchmen that the true watchmen are ignored. People need to worry about the beam in their own eye instead of splinter's in their brother's eye.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Countless posts across the whole of this online forum often come within a hair's breadth of violating the cardinal rule of CF which forbids calling into question another member's Christianity. Understanding that is forbidden here, is there ever a time in the real world where it is Okay or even necessary to do so?

In the local church, is there ever an appropriate time to call someone's status as a member of the Body of Christ into question? Is it forbidden? Is it judging? Is it a loving act? Who gets to make this call, and under what circumstances?

What does the Bible have to say about this?

*This is not about the rules at CF. If you think so, you're missing the point.

I am very careful, but if someone is non-trinitarian than I am much more likely to say they are not Christian.

Trinitarians, I try to avoid it as much as possible, because Jesus Saves, not I.

That is my general way of looking at it.

 

[masmpg]

IMO, it is because of the abundance of false watchmen that the true watchmen are ignored. People need to worry about the beam in their own eye instead of splinter's in their brother's eye.

I understand this, but if someone were to come to me and admonish me for anything it would be a door to share truth whether they be false watchmen or not, but too many go to others instead of the one in error, thus the rumor mill gets underway in all churches.

 

[ToBeLoved]

My point is, it is the role of a watchman to sound a warning. It is NOT the role of a watchman to drag someone kicking and screaming behind the walls because that watchman thinks he saw a wolf. And on top of that, it is someone with the role of a prophet to sound that warning. To many operate as 'false prophets' and appoint themselves as watchmen over their brethren and usurp false authority over them.

Giving a warning and operating as a meddlesome busybody are two different things.

Right. And a watchman better be sure they have researched, researched, researched, because they can destroy good people if they are wrong.

 

[Yahu_]

Right. And a watchman better be sure they have researched, researched, researched, because they can destroy good people if they are wrong.

Yep, seen that, been a victim of that. Lost my wife as a result of that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yep, seen that, been a victim of that. Lost my wife as a result of that.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[St_Worm2]

Is that why people justify being a meddlesome busybody in the matters of other men's lives?

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.

What happens when there is a difference of opinion of what constitutes sin? This situation had major consequences in my life. My own brother sabotaged my marriage plans to save me from sin (in his opinion). He is no longer in my life as a result.

Yah save me from so-called Christians that are trying to save me from being in sin in their opinion!

Hi Yahu, discipline is to be the loving business of an individual believer first, then of a group of believers, and then of the local church as a whole (as I believe RDKirk may have already pointed out or alluded to). The Bible instructs us to take a sinning believer aside (or one we "believe" is sinning anyway) like Nathan did for King David, and if our admonishment/reproof is not heeded, we are to bring in additional witnesses, and then the church itself (if the matter remains unsettled). In this way, if there is a "difference of opinion", the accusation can be seen and considered to be true or false, not just by one, but by many. So if you run into a similar situation again, and you believe yourself innocent, then insist that it be handled as the Bible mandates it should (perhaps you could even do this now with the situation concerning your brother).

This is the system we are given Biblically, and it is a good one (though it is rarely used these days as others have already mentioned ).

Yours in Christ,
David

15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. ~Matthew 18​

 

[Yahu_]

Hi Yahu, discipline is to be the loving business of an individual believer first, then of a group of believers, and then of the local church as a whole (as I believe RDKirk may have already pointed out or alluded to). The Bible instructs us to take a sinning believer aside (or one we "believe" is sinning anyway) like Nathan did for King David, and if our admonishment/reproof is not heeded, we are to bring in additional witnesses, and then the church itself (if the matter remains unsettled).

Nathan was a prophet with a calling to bring correction so the example is irrelevant unless you hold the office of prophet. Unless you are a spiritual authority over that individual, it isn't your role to bring correction. A husband can correct his wife and children for example.

Usurping false authority over others is the broad definition of witchcraft. This is why rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Rebellion is rejection of valid authority. Witchcraft is usurping false authority. So a wife that refuses to submit to her husband is guilty of rebellion but if she imposes her own will over her husband, it is witchcraft. That makes it not only a rejection of his authority but usurping that authority for herself.

So if you are not a direct spiritual authority over another, worry about the beam in your own eye. That is unless the offense is against you personally, then you do have a right to confront a brother to give them an opportunity to repent of the offense against you.

Discipline can only come from one in authority to one under their authority.

BTW, the passage you quoted has to do with an offense by your brother against you, not some random error of his.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Nathan was a prophet with a calling to bring correction so the example is irrelevant unless you hold the office of prophet. Unless you are a spiritual authority over that individual, it isn't your role to bring correction. A husband can correct his wife and children for example.

Usurping false authority over others is the broad definition of witchcraft. This is why rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Rebellion is rejection of valid authority. Witchcraft is usurping false authority. So a wife that refuses to submit to her husband is guilty of rebellion but if she imposes her own will over her husband, it is witchcraft. That makes it not only a rejection of his authority but usurping that authority for herself.

So if you are not a direct spiritual authority over another, worry about the beam in your own eye. That is unless the offense is against you personally, then you do have a right to confront a brother to give them an opportunity to repent of the offense against you.

Discipline can only come from one in authority to one under their authority.

BTW, the passage you quoted has to do with an offense by your brother against you, not some random error of his.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

There's so much poisoning of the mind going on. I looked up every reference to rebellion and witchcraft listed and none refer to what your talking about.

 

[sculleywr]

So, we should cut off fellowship because of (some) behavior. Where do you draw the line? Which behavior is bad enough to qualify?

I wouldn't say fellowship except in EXTREME circumstances. For instance, if a person were found molesting children, refusing to allow your children would be sensible.

But I've seen disfellowshipping and shunning happen for sometimes ridiculous reasons. My family was shunned because my mom went to a man she trusted for advice and the pastor decided that it was not appropriate to do so and turned the entire Church against us.

Excommunication is different. A person might be refused communion because of a sin that he is holding onto, but he is still allowed to participate in the other portions of worship, like the coffee hour and choir and such. And excommunication is always temporary and intended to provide correction to strengthen the person in the long run. In the Orthodox Church, that is still extremely rare.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Unless you are a spiritual authority over that individual, it isn't your role to bring correction. A husband can correct his wife and children for example.

Usurping false authority over others is the broad definition of witchcraft. This is why rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Rebellion is rejection of valid authority. Witchcraft is usurping false authority.

Can you please show this with Bible verses? I don't think correction, when done in love for another is unsurping authority, nor does one need to be in spiritual authority over another to correct. Please show that this is correct.

I also strongly disagree with you using the word 'witchcraft' when referring to Christians. That can cause so much misunderstanding that I don't think it is appropriate.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

...is there ever a time in the real world where it is Okay or even necessary to do so? [Question another's claim as a Christian.]

Yes, in short.

The statement in Matthew 7, beginning with verse 1, is another one of those 'context' passages. It really isn't a blanket prohibition of 'evaluating' another person or action or anything; it is a caution about over-reacting, if anything. 1st John 4:1 and following speaks of 'testing' spirits - which I understand to include teachings, concepts and claims regarding God as well.

A person who claims to be Christian then says, '...but finely filtered sand should be used to baptize, and then only sprinkled...' might make some of us wonder, but is not - alone - cause to doubt that person's salvation.

On the other hand, one who says, "I believe in Jesus; the one with the leather wings and always carries a fly swatter..." might be a bit more immediately suspect.

I really did meet a young woman who claimed to be Christian. And Jewish. And Moslem. And Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan and some others. I had grave doubts about her relationship with God. As I haven't run across her again, I still do. The reader may decide on one's own.

In many cases immediately denying another's Christianity - or good sense - might be avoided, or handled delicately. We are ordered to preach the word to all, not to act superior or offensive in all cases.

 

[Yahu_]

There's so much poisoning of the mind going on. I looked up every reference to rebellion and witchcraft listed and none refer to what your talking about.

Maybe because I didn't get that info out of a book but from personal experience. I have been in conflict with several covens and knew the next worldwide high priestess of Ashtoreth over 30 years ago and had a 3 year long battle that ended with her coven prosecuted, in prison or dead. Battling paganistic witchcraft is part of my calling and a the ancient paganism in conflict with Israel is my area of study for many years. Covens don't always resort to ritualistic witchcraft. Slander, gossip and lying to manipulation is the 1st course of action for them. Ritual witchcraft can rebound upon them.

Witchcraft is all about the witch imposing their will over situation or people such as a curse to punish those that refuse their authority or a bribe to gain that authority. It is about manipulation, control and domination. A love spell for example is to control another's emotions. Even the use of gossip to punish someone not under your authority is a form of witchcraft. The narrower definition of ritual witchcraft is about usurping invalid control over spiritual forces.

An example of ritualistic witchcraft is referenced in Isa 57 in a passage about Baalim worship in the grove outside of Jerusalem and the valley below, the valley of Hinnom where the children were sacrificed to Molech.

Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king (Molech) with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This witchcraft thing should be a new thread if it is to be discussed.

Aren't we talking about who is a Christian here?

I am not participating to hear about witches. As a matter of fact, I will leave if this continues because I find it way off topic and I do not want to read about witches or witchcraft or covens.

 

[Yahu_]

Can you please show this with Bible verses? I don't think correction, when done in love for another is unsurping authority, nor does one need to be in spiritual authority over another to correct. Please show that this is correct.

I also strongly disagree with you using the word 'witchcraft' when referring to Christians. That can cause so much misunderstanding that I don't think it is appropriate.

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

The above passage directly links rebellion and witchcraft. I just explained how they are linked. Correction is often done out of a spirit of arrogance or superiority, not love. Now when I say 'correction' I don't mean giving your opinion but having the right of punishment if they refuse instruction. Correction implies the right of punishment and you MUST have authority to issue punishment.

Queen Jezebel was the high priestess of Ashtoreth of her day and a witch. She put a death curse on Elijah for example. Witchcraft is a major aspect of the Baalim worship religion. All attributes of a Jezebel are forms of witchcraft. Witchcraft is just the ways and tactics of a witch to gain control out of arrogance and superiority.

Just as the Baalim worship and tactics infiltrated Judaism all over the OT, it is also rampant in the Church as well. Praying improper prayers of control over an individual not under your authority can also be a form of witchcraft. Yah will not honor a prayer of control over another's life BUT some spirits may try to 'be a god' to you and use your spiritual authority to impose that will. That makes it witchcraft.

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

The 'lusts' are lusts for control over others.

 

[ToBeLoved]

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

The above passage directly links rebellion and witchcraft. I just explained how they are linked. Correction is often done out of a spirit of arrogance or superiority, not love. Now when I say 'correction' I don't mean giving your opinion but having the right of punishment if they refuse instruction. Correction implies the right of punishment and you MUST have authority to issue punishment.

Queen Jezebel was the high priestess of Ashtoreth of her day and a witch. She put a death curse on Elijah for example. Witchcraft is a major aspect of the Baalim worship religion. All attributes of a Jezebel are forms of witchcraft. Witchcraft is just the ways and tactics of a witch to gain control out of arrogance and superiority.

Just as the Baalim worship and tactics infiltrated Judaism all over the OT, it is also rampant in the Church as well. Praying improper prayers of control over an individual not under your authority can also be a form of witchcraft. Yah will not honor a prayer of control over another's life BUT some spirits may try to 'be a god' to you and use your spiritual authority to impose that will. That makes it witchcraft.

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

The 'lusts' are lusts for control over others.

Unsubscribing. I wish you would respect others.

Goodbye.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Maybe because I didn't get that info out of a book but from personal experience. I have been in conflict with several covens and knew the next worldwide high priestess of Ashtoreth over 30 years ago and had a 3 year long battle that ended with her coven prosecuted, in prison or dead. Battling paganistic witchcraft is part of my calling and a the ancient paganism in conflict with Israel is my area of study for many years. Covens don't always resort to ritualistic witchcraft. Slander, gossip and lying to manipulation is the 1st course of action for them. Ritual witchcraft can rebound upon them.

Witchcraft is all about the witch imposing their will over situation or people such as a curse to punish those that refuse their authority or a bribe to gain that authority. It is about manipulation, control and domination. A love spell for example is to control another's emotions. Even the use of gossip to punish someone not under your authority is a form of witchcraft. The narrower definition of ritual witchcraft is about usurping invalid control over spiritual forces.

An example of ritualistic witchcraft is referenced in Isa 57 in a passage about Baalim worship in the grove outside of Jerusalem and the valley below, the valley of Hinnom where the children were sacrificed to Molech.

Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king (Molech) with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

From reading some of you other posts it sounds like you may have a bitter root. Hebrews 12:15 It's very subtle in that it can cut off from the root of Christ. So the only way to be effectively rid of it is to be intimately connected with the true root of God, a branch of the true vine in bearing fruit that is of the kind that is of Christ.

That much contact with evil certainly would seem to need alot of alone time with Christ, in His grace.

Molech is the false god of emotional cruelty inacted in sacrifice of children. None of which is associated with Our Heavenly Father and the family thereof.