Is That Guy Really a Christian?!

[RDKirk]

I could not disagree more. The physical representation of being outside of the church is without a doubt of the very real cutting off from Christ.

We are not instructed to keep the sinner within our ranks and "counsel" him. We are told to cut him off, and that is in itself a judgement from God, implemented by the church.

Except:

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient.

Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. -- 2 Corinthians 2

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I think it's better to focus on the issue that is incorrect rather than the person. There is no way for me to know what is in another persons heart.

Also, there is a process of church discipline: Matthew 18:15-17

Church discipline, which is rarely if ever practiced in most evangelical churches, is designed to correct a believer.

Except:

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient.

Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. -- 2 Corinthians 2

Apples and oranges.

 

[Leevo]

Countless posts across the whole of this online forum often come within a hair's breadth of violating the cardinal rule of CF which forbids calling into question another member's Christianity. Understanding that is forbidden here, is there ever a time in the real world where it is Okay or even necessary to do so?

In the local church, is there ever an appropriate time to call someone's status as a member of the Body of Christ into question? Is it forbidden? Is it judging? Is it a loving act? Who gets to make this call, and under what circumstances?

What does the Bible have to say about this?

*This is not about the rules at CF. If you think so, you're missing the point.

I think 1 Corinthians 5:12 speaks to the tune of this subject.

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

In the local church, we should call into question someones faith if they confess to be a brother or sister and yet do not live accordingly. I think any Christian should be able to make this call but not without careful examination first. It is loving, because if the person is behaving as a hypocrite, then he or she is not a true believer and may have deceived themselves into thinking that they are, and is in for a rude awakening upon death. I would rather someone be a tiny bit uncomfortable now from hearing the truth than eternally uncomfortable in Hell.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I think 1 Corinthians 5:12 speaks to the tune of this subject.

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

In the local church, we should call into question someones faith if they confess to be a brother or sister and yet do not live accordingly. I think any Christian should be able to make this call but not without careful examination first. It is loving, because if the person is behaving as a hypocrite, then he or she is not a true believer and may have deceived themselves into thinking that they are, and is in for a rude awakening upon death. I would rather someone be a tiny bit uncomfortable now from hearing the truth than eternally uncomfortable in Hell.

I agree. If some has a false sense of security, that is a bad thing, which can hopefully be corrected.

What about doctrine, though? Can/should we correct doctrine that is outside of gospel Christianity?

 

[Leevo]

I agree. If some has a false sense of security, that is a bad thing, which can hopefully be corrected.

What about doctrine, though? Can/should we correct doctrine that is outside of gospel Christianity?

I think we should do that as well. I guess it would have to be under careful examination of the actual doctrine.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I think we should do that as well. I guess it would have to be under careful examination of the actual doctrine.

Did Paul do that with the Galatian church?

 

[St_Worm2]

Does that text refer to a person within the church, though?

Somehow I just knew you wouldn't let me sneak that one by

Yes, in context, James 5:19-20 is referring specifically to those within the church (and a frightening little passage it is as a result). But, in a similar manner to Galatians 6 and its teaching about reaping/sowing (which specifically refers to "giving"), I believe James 5:20 can have a broader application as well, and my use of James 5:20 above had that in mind (just to be clear however, such discernment/confrontation are in no way negated within the church, in fact, they are encouraged .. i.e. Matthew 18:15; James 5:19-20).

Do you see the broader application I am speaking of, or do you believe I err in taking v20 out of context in the manner that I have To be honest Brother, I struggle with v19-20, so if you have any insights you'd like to share, they would be appreciated

Yours in Christ,
David

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault
in private; if he listens to you, you
have won your brother"
Matthew 18:15​

 

[bcbsr]

2Co 11:26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Ga 2:4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Leevo]

Did Paul do that with the Galatian church?

In all honesty I haven't read through Galatians recently to be able to go much further on the topic.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Somehow I just knew you wouldn't let me sneak that one by

Yes, in context, James 5:19-20 is referring specifically to those within the church (and a frightening little passage it is as a result). But, in a similar manner to Galatians 6 and its teaching about reaping/sowing (which specifically refers to "giving"), I believe James 5:20 can have a broader application as well, and my use of James 5:20 above had that in mind (just to be clear however, such discernment/confrontation are in no way negated within the church, in fact, they are encouraged .. i.e. Matthew 18:15; James 5:19-20).

Do you see the broader application I am speaking of, or do you believe I err in taking v20 out of context in the manner that I have To be honest Brother, I struggle with v19-20, so if you have any insights you'd like to share, they would be appreciated

Yours in Christ,
David

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault
in private; if he listens to you, you
have won your brother"
Matthew 18:15​

Dear brother David,

The last thing I would ever want to do is to disallow one from the communion of the saints; however, this is the instruction that the church is given to be applied in certain situations.

The harsh hand of earthly judgement might be what keeps one from far worse. . .

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In all honesty I haven't read through Galatians recently to be able to go much further on the topic.

May I encourage you to do just that.

 

[RC1970]

Church discipline, which is rarely if ever practiced in most evangelical churches, is designed to correct a believer.

I thought that Matthew 18:15-17 was directly on point.

The OP:

In the local church, is there ever an appropriate time to call someone's status as a member of the Body of Christ into question? Is it forbidden? Is it judging? Is it a loving act? Who gets to make this call, and under what circumstances?

Matthew 18:17

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I thought that Matthew 18:15-17 was directly on point.

The OP:


Matthew 18:17

Yes. The end of church discipline is excommunication.

 

[Leevo]

May I encourage you to do just that.

I will for sure, my curiosity is piqued.

 

[aiki]

In the local church, is there ever an appropriate time to call someone's status as a member of the Body of Christ into question?

Yup.

Is it forbidden?

Nope.

Is it judging?

Of a kind. Yup.

Is it a loving act?

Well, it should be. Frequently and unfortunately, it is not a loving act.

Who gets to make this call, and under what circumstances?

Any believer who discerns the sin or mistaken/false doctrine of one who claims to be a disciple of Christ.

Selah.

 

[hedrick]

It's not typically useful for a local church to judge whether individuals are Christian or not. Most churches that would want to make judgements have more specific definitions. E.g. conservative Presbyterian churches adhere to Westminster. It’s pretty easy for them to say that someone has violated that standard. They wouldn’t typically have need to judge whether the person is Christian.

Similarly a few years ago the PCUSA reversed the reception of a member because he was not willing to affirm the membership vows. That also gave a pretty objective way to make a decision that didn’t require a judgement as to whether he was a Christian. (In this case he was an atheist, so that judgement wouldn’t have been difficult.)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It's not typically useful for a local church to judge whether individuals are Christian or not. Most churches that would want to make judgements have more specific definitions. E.g. conservative Presbyterian churches adhere to Westminster. It’s pretty easy for them to say that someone has violated that standard. They wouldn’t typically have need to judge whether the person is Christian.

Similarly a few years ago the PCUSA reversed the reception of a member because he was not willing to affirm the membership vows. That also gave a pretty objective way to make a decision that didn’t require a judgement as to whether he was a Christian. (In this case he was an atheist, so that judgement wouldn’t have been difficult.)

So, are you saying that the NT and early church were wrong in their actions?

 

[hedrick]

So, are you saying that the NT and early church were wrong in their actions?

I looked through the thread, and the NT references I see are to disciplining people for their actions. That doesn't involve a judgement of whether they're Christian. What reference did you have in mind?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I looked through the thread, and the NT references I see are to disciplining people for their actions. That doesn't involve a judgement of whether they're Christian. What reference did you have in mind?

For openers, Paul in the book of Galatians.

 

[RC1970]

I looked through the thread, and the NT references I see are to disciplining people for their actions. That doesn't involve a judgement of whether they're Christian. What reference did you have in mind?

To be excommunicated is to treat a person as a non-believer, no?

In other words, until this person corrects their behavior, we will treat them as a non-Christian.