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Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Major1, Aug 23, 2017.

  1. Biblicist

    Biblicist Full Gospel believer

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    For those who are well versed with theology in general and particularly with the various commentaries on First Corinthians, we would all be well aware that many scholars will at times say things that they do not believe, or that they will phrase a given response to a question in a way that will allow them to retain their academic integrity without overtly upsetting their peers; often these peers are the ones who write their monthly pay check!

    When it comes to the τὸ τέλειον of 1 Cor 13:10 I cannot except that any intelligent person who holds a respected degree in theology could ever believe that Paul is speaking of a future completed Canon, there is no chance in my view that any such person could hold to such nonsense.

    The same goes for the nature of tongues found in 1 Cor 14 and particularly with verse 2. I cannot accept that any scholar would view Paul’s teachings as saying that tongues are supposedly to be spoken in a known human language when he goes to great lengths in chapter 14 to say otherwise.

    Now you may feel insulted (and so you probably should) but as I spend a fair amount of time with the various commentaries and journal articles on First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 [I currently own about 80 such commentaries] then I am more than competent to make such an observation and I will continue to do so until I meet with the Lord. As I said previously, I also hear similar objections from those who promote homosexuality, that God is dead, universalism and that Jesus is not the only way to the Father, so am I perturbed that I am upsetting a few cessationists, not really.
     
  2. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    I may not be listening but I am reading.
     
  3. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    No.
     
  4. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    100% true. I doubt that it ever crossed his mind that his letters were going to be anything more than just letters.

    it is sad that so many believers to day are fed little tidbits of scripture interpreted entirely from the speakers understanding rather than an exegesis of the times they were written in, the people they were written to and the purpose of the passage.

    In other words, they try to drag the past into the present and ignore the past that determined the reasons for writing what they wrote.

    My eyes were opened when I purchased an eight volume work of church history and a five volume work of Jewish customs and life.

    Both gave me insight as to why what was written was written.
     
  5. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    I am a retired teacher of English. Because one is retired, one does not throw away all the requirements of good English writing.

    What I said was the truth. It is bad English or as another writer said poor English. Nothing snide about the remark at all.
     
  6. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    i affirm biblical practices of the gifts of the HS. In every detail of the operations of the church there is abuse but to focus on the abuse to discredit the biblical practices doesn't have any value. We instead should hold up biblical practices to discredit the abuse.

    Your requests from your first link "Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?" is unreasonable. I am not making a website with audio recordings and videos then organize a group of elders and linguists to evaluate it. This goes beyond the context and purpose of the gifts of the HS. Paul makes no demands like this on the Corinthian church to authenticate them. Your other request in the second link is about edification. scriptural practice of the gift of tongues demands an interpretation and it is the interpretation that has understanding and thus edifies. Interpretation also authenticates the gift as the two work together with a message in tongues then it's interpretation and together they edifying the body of believers.

    your line of questioning seems to have an agenda to discrediting the gifts by working backwards showing abuse today or lack of use in history must prove they have ceased. Let's use scripture to authenticate scripture and if you're going to use historical accounts use accounts that overlap the context, not account out of context nor modern day abuse. Once we establish the scriptural doctrine then we can scrutinize the historical account or abuse to see how they have hit or missed the target. Your methodology shoots the arrow then draws the target around wherever it hits.

    I might add your approach is more inline with the historical-critical method than historical-grammatical method that is aimed at finding the original meaning of the text and holds scripture as the highest authority. The historical part is observing the historical events overlapping the context to help better understand the original meaning. It is not intended to look at events that are far removed from the context to understand its original meaning which is what you are doing. Using the historical-grammatical method the questions that are demanded are primarily about how does the original audience understand this message and how do overlapping historical accounts help build that context? As for the completion of the canon some 100 years later... this is not an overlapping historical account of the text. So I encourage you to use historical-grammatical method to understand the context of the text. Luther developed this method and his own interpretation of the text is "Prophecy, tongues, knowledge, all must cease; for in yonder life each individual will himself perceive perfectly and there will be no need for one to teach another. Likewise, all differences, all inequalities, shall be no more. No knowledge and no diversity of gifts is necessary; God himself will be all in every soul"
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
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  7. Biblicist

    Biblicist Full Gospel believer

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    This is a question that I am admittedly no closer to understanding than I was maybe fourty years back. Even though Paul would have been obviously well versed on the 12 Epistles that he had written and of course these are in themselves a substantial collection on their own, it is hard to know if Paul was aware that his books and how many others would soon be been compiled as the New Testament.

    Even if Paul was aware that his writings would be the foundation of the New Testament, there is no way that he would diminish the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit as he outworks through the Believers in the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11). I could not imagine for a second that Paul would ever consider our frail abilities to partially understand what has been written for us could in any fashion out-compare the Ministry of the Holy Spirit. In fact, it would only be from within an attitude of complete arrogance that we could ever consider that our own understanding would ever be able to negate the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit to that of virtual irrelevance.

    Yes, the “why what . . .” is certainly worth delving into and of course there is a wealth of literature out there that covers a host of subjects that relate not only to the Word of God but to the history, life and times of the early Church and particularly to the socio-rhetorical nature of the Scriptures.

    My particular interest (besides that of First Corinthians) is with the Achaia region of southern Greece which is the region that Paul addressed First and Second Corinthians to; this region covers Athens, the Corinthian Isthmus and the Peloponnese Peninsula. So far I have over 100 academic commentaries on this region along with Roman culture in the Eastern Mediterranean and hopefully within a few decades I might be able to read through about 30 percent of this material.
     
  8. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    Oh, you are right about this. I learned that and it jumped out at me when I did. The reason the scriptures say, to one teaching, to another prophecy, etc., is because of the desires of the heart of the individual. So people will be drawn to earnestly desire a specific gift or two to operate in and not the others. Does that make sense. I think it does. But we do all have the gift of all nine gifts to each and every one. They choose what they like.
     
  9. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    I like how you think. This rings of truth.

    In a similar vein, because of the fall, people tend to...as they seek knowledge and truth and to righly divide truth from lies, they seem to subconsciously seek the faults rather than seek the truth. That's backwards. We shouldn't seek out the faults in what people say so to discredit them or correct them, but seek the truth and ignore the rest.
     
  10. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    OK, now I can see why you don't want to meet my challenge, as the truth is finally coming out, and now I can see why you were confusing the issue. What you are doing right now is calling your "tongue" a real language, because you want to believe that it is, not because you actually believe that it is. I can see this unsurety behind what you are saying. Here you are merely repeating the traditional Charismatic dogma about what you do. But before you respond denying your unsurety, if you want to show that you really are certain it is a real language, then why not present it for evaluation? Are you willing to be accountable?
    TD:)
     
  11. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Yet more typical slanders for people who are skeptical about your practice.:sigh:

    I told you exactly how to present overwhelming evidence of the truth you are doing in my challenge here:
    Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

    It would be the proof I need, along with possibly millions of other people who are skeptical as myself. Why don't you want to do it? Too much effort? Too afraid to be accountable?
    TD:)
     
  12. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    I'm not familiar with the term subsequence and how that differs with AoG doctrine.

    Here is where you deviate from scripture, as Paul clearly stated not everyone speaks in tongues. If you really believe that every Christian can do the same kind of tongues as you do, then I can only conclude that you are admitting the activity is a natural ability and not miraculous. Are you admitting this?
    TD:)
     
  13. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Not all prayer edifies, as Jesus told such a story about it (Lk. 18:10). Further, He warned us not to pray with meaningless repetition. If your "tongue" is merely random syllables and not a real language, then it really is meaningless repetition. And then, whatever you think your prayer is altering is merely coincidence or hype. Even though God can use anything for the gospel, as Paul indicated, I still would rather fight in such a way as not to "beat the air" (1 Cor. 9:26).
    TD:)
     
  14. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Sometimes I lower my standard of language because of the technology, and because I'm so used to seeing it, I guess I let myself be badly influenced by others.

    On the other hand, your objection that it wasn't broken into paragraphs isn't poor English at all. It has to do with eye aesthetics, and is more for convenience than communication. Otherwise, you would say the NT is written in poor Greek (which you would say anyway, if you were biased toward classical Greek).

    However I can see your point, and I'm trying to break up the conversation into smaller modules.
    TD:)
     
  15. Biblicist

    Biblicist Full Gospel believer

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    There are two views with regard to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

    1. The Soteriological understanding
    The traditional view is that every Believer receives the Baptism in the Holy Spirit the moment that they are Born Again (irrespective if they speak in tongues or not), this is the view of those who are Evangelical, the vast majority of contemporary Charismatics and non-classic Pentecostals such as me.

    For a Pentecostal such as myself, even though I acknowledge that every Christian has been Baptised in the Holy Spirit even if they choose not to speak in tongues; what makes me a Pentecostal and not a Charismatic is that I still believe that the normative Biblical pattern for Salvation is that every Believer should expect to immediately speak in tongues.

    Soteriology speaks of our initial Salvation or of salvation in general.​

    2. The Subsequence understanding
    The classic-Pentecostal view (such as with the AoG) is that the Believer initially receives the Holy Spirit as a seal and sometime later, maybe minutes, days or years they then receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

    During the worldwide Charismatic Renewal of the 1960's and 70's the vast majority of Charismatics believed that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was once of subsequence, but since this time the majority view among Charismatics is that it is Soteriological. Even many AoG members are not as confident as they once were with this particular understanding.​

    When Paul says that not everyone will speak in tongues he is referring to the congregational setting where many will choose not to speak in tongues but instead prophesy or maybe do neither.

    Every Born Again believer can certainly pray in the Spirit (speak in tongues) as we are each filled or Baptised in the Holy Spirit. There is nothing natural about our ability to allow the Holy Spirit to pray in an Angelic tongue to the Father.
     
  16. Biblicist

    Biblicist Full Gospel believer

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    When we pray in the Spirit the Holy Spirit always prays perfect prayers that are way above our human comprehension and even with our own ability to pray with the mind.

    When it comes to times of personal praise, irrespective if we are in our prayer closet or even driving our car, the ability to allow the Holy Spirit to speak words of continuous praise to the Father, either as simple words or in song is a spiritual ability that goes way beyond the abilities of mortal man.
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Then can you explain what the sacrifice of Jesus was on the cross.
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I personally have never witnessed tongues being spoken in a Biblical manner.

    Almost every example I can give is when the person in the pulpit speak in tongues and then those in the congregation then follow that lead and no one, NO ONE does any interpretation because what they are saying is NOT A LANGUAGE which can be interpreted.
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    In the only example or mention of tongues in all the four gospels is in Mark 17:17 when Jesus gave the gift of tongues to the ELEVEN as they gathered, He said, “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues".

    The original Greek says that the adjective “new” (Gr. kainos) can only mean they were going to speak in LANGUAGES that was new to them, that is, languages they had not learned or used until that time.

    Now, I n Acts 2:4 Luke uses a different adjective when he says, “they began to speak with other tongues.” The word “other” (Gr. heteros) simply means that they spoke in LANGUAGES different from the normal language they were used to. The context substantiates this AS WE SEE IN aCTS 2:7-8.....
    “And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?".

    Every man heard them speak in his own language. Here the word “language” is the translation of dialekto from which our word “dialect” comes.

    Now, is that what YOU have seen take place. What I have seen and heard is the utterances of noises which can not be translated because they are not languages at all.

    But the more serious problems arise in the interpretation of the twenty-one references to tongues in 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14. There are those who tell us that the tongues in First Corinthians are ecstatic utterances not known in any country on earth. They base their conclusion on the term “unknown” which appears in 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, 13, 14, 19, and 27.

    But the reader of this chapter in God’s Word must not fail to observe that the word “unknown” in every place where it appears is in italicized letters, which means that it does not occur in any Greek manuscript but was inserted by translators. The Holy Spirit did not direct Paul to write that the tongue is unknown.

    All the usages of tongues in Paul’s treatment of the subject refer to foreign languages. “So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into air” (1 Corinthians 14:9).
     
  20. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I would agree with you except as I have said several times, the original Greek grammar will not allow that interpretation.

    The grammer of "perfect one" is neuter which means that the subject must be a THING and not a person or an event to come.
     
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