Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?

[boughtwithaprice]

I suppose that chap in Rome thinks he can run a church better than anyone else. He and his predecessors have certainly been quite convincing about it. He must know the Bible so well that he couldn't be wrong, especially when he makes his ex cathedra pronouncements. As they say, folks who inhabit glass basilicas ought not to throw stones.

The Pope is the lonliest most humbling position in the Church. He is charged with the office of Peter, and that is a daunting task. Jesus gave His authority to one man, Peter. Nowhere in scripture does it say the Church has been democratized. We trust the Holy Spirit to keep him in check. We know that infallibly does not make him impeccable, as Paul challenged Peter to his face, but Paul did not reject Peter and start a Church of his own. Paul respected the office and lead everyone to the truth. Is Christ divided? God forbid.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Seems you don't know many born-again Protestants. . .

Considering that I was one, I believe that you are mistaken. It is humbling to admit when one is wrong, but the grace God gives far surpasses any benefit of pride
If you look at me, you can easily tear me apart, and may I ask that I join you? What I can tell you was that when I gave up my pride and submitted to the authority of the Apostles, the sin that so easily beset me was gone, and I continue to grow by His grace. It is much different than when I was in Protestant born again circles. It is as I was truly born again, and I can say with Solomon, vanity, vanity, everything is vanity. The freedom Christ gives is a wonderful thing.

 

[Clare73]

Considering that I was one, I believe that you are mistaken. It is humbling to admit when one is wrong, but the grace God gives far surpasses any benefit of pride
If you look at me, you can easily tear me apart, and may I ask that I join you? What I can tell you was that when I gave up my pride and submitted to the authority of the Apostles,

As do Protestans in the NT Scriptures. . .

Not begrudging you your Catholic affiliation. . .I suspect their systemized catechising, not much found in Protestantism, was a real beneift.

 

[concretecamper]

It is sort of like the half-empty and half-full glass

No it isn't

As long as humans are human there never can be absolute and total unity on any matter

Sure there can. Remove the arrogance and pride, replace it with faith, it is totally possible. In fact, it is here and now

. Even within denominations such as yours which claim perfect unity there is a surprising amount of diversity.

There is perfect unity among those on His Church. There are many who claim to be in the Church who are separated from Her.

It is a simply matter to sweep the diverse voices under the rug and deny they exist and that there is complete agreement on every jot and tittle of doctrine and practice.

No one is sweeping diversity under the rug. Im just making a statement that those who reject any teaching on faith and morals are separated from His Church. So by definition, all who remain are in perfect unity. Its not that hard to understand, is it?

However, the reality is that if there were perfect unity on every jot and tittle of doctrine and practice there were be no diversity whatsoever

There should be no diversity when it comes to faith and morals among members of His Church.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

As do Protestans in the NT Scriptures. . .

Not begrudging you your Catholic affiliation. . .I suspect their systemized catechising, not much found in Protestantism, was a real beneift.

Thank you and God bless you. There are many good Protestants that desire to follow the Lord, but I agree about the catechesis. For all the talk of 1Timothy4 6-10, I have to ask, Where is the training in righteousness?
I have been to Baptist, Plymouth Brethren, Assembly of God, Non-denominational, Nazarene, and Presbyterian Church of America, and all I learned in each of those was pay your tithe, come to Church, sing worship songs and don’t judge your neighbor. We were taught that even though we know our neighbor is in sin, we can’t tell him because that would be judging his heart. Sermons that called people to repentance were seen as too harsh, and we had to go for uplifting so we don’t drive people away and “grow the church” People loved to talk about the fruit of the Spirit, but were not told how to get it.
We did not learn the seven virtues that oppose the seven deadly sins. Humility, chastity, kindness, patience, generosity, temperance, and fortitude. Sorry if you already know but the seven deadly sins are pride, lust, envy, wrath, greed, gluttony and sloth.
We were not taught the seven heavenly virtues of Faith, Hope, Charity, justice, temperance, prudence, and fortitude. The first three are theological virtues as they come from God alone. When we are born again we are washed in the waters of baptism and we receive the gifts of Faith to know that God IS, Hope that God will fulfill His promise in us, and Charity to love God and seek to please Him with all our heart mind and soul. The other four are cardinal virtues that have to worked at aka put into practice to perfect. In Protestants circles we were told that works were meaningless, so no one tried. It is sad, many Protestants see that is not true, but many don’t. There was always the problem of antinomian and once saved always saved that was difficult to combat.
In the Catholic Church there are many that are not well catechized, and it takes work to seek it out. It is all written down if we look for it. We have the testimony of many saints over 2000 years. It takes effort, but Our Lord promises, you will seek me and you shall find me when you search with all of your heart

May the Lord continue to call you to Himself as the Spirit of God leads.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, I believe that the vast majority of Christians are sincerely praying that those who have wandered off the path will humble themselves and repent of their errors and rejoin them. It is certainly true of the EOC which deeply laments the Great Schism when the RCC schismed from the one, true, orthodox church. However, it does not appear likely that the RCC is remotely interested in humbling itself and confessing its errors and rejoining the EOC.

Jesus does not have to humble Himself to anyone. Please stop your attacks against the Catholic Church. If you choose to humble yourself at sometime and say so that is up to you, if you choose to confess your own errors that is up to you, but please quit attacking Catholics. What you think others should be confessing should be kept to yourself. If you have something specific you disagree with you are welcome to say state your disagreement that is what discussions are for.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No it isn't

Sure there can. Remove the arrogance and pride, replace it with faith, it is totally possible. In fact, it is here and now

There is perfect unity among those on His Church. There are many who claim to be in the Church who are separated from Her.


No one is sweeping diversity under the rug. Im just making a statement that those who reject any teaching on faith and morals are separated from His Church. So by definition, all who remain are in perfect unity. Its not that hard to understand, is it?

There should be no diversity when it comes to faith and morals among members of His Church.

What do you make of those Catholic bishops in Germany? They seem to be taking some firm stands on morals which do not align with the chap in Rome.

 

[concretecamper]

Yes, I believe that the vast majority of Christians are sincerely praying that those who have wandered off the path will humble themselves and repent of their errors and rejoin them. It is certainly true of the EOC which deeply laments the Great Schism when the RCC schismed from the one, true, orthodox church. However, it does not appear likely that the RCC is remotely interested in humbling itself and confessing its errors and rejoining the EOC.

If the protestant argument is that the EO is the true Church and Rome is in schism, I guess that means all of Protestantism is in schism too

 

[concretecamper]

What do you make of those Catholic bishops in Germany? They seem to be taking some firm stands on morals which do not align with the chap in Rome.

I've already addressed what happens when one parts way with His Church on faith and morals.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you and God bless you. There are many good Protestants that desire to follow the Lord, but I agree about the catechesis. For all the talk of 1Timothy4 6-10, I have to ask, Where is the training in righteousness?
I have been to Baptist, Plymouth Brethren, Assembly of God, Non-denominational, Nazarene, and Presbyterian Church of America, and all I learned in each of those was pay your tithe, come to Church, sing worship songs and don’t judge your neighbor. We were taught that even though we know our neighbor is in sin, we can’t tell him because that would be judging his heart. Sermons that called people to repentance were seen as too harsh, and we had to go for uplifting so we don’t drive people away and “grow the church” People loved to talk about the fruit of the Spirit, but were not told how to get it.
We did not learn the seven virtues that oppose the seven deadly sins. Humility, chastity, kindness, patience, generosity, temperance, and fortitude. Sorry if you already know but the seven deadly sins are pride, lust, envy, wrath, greed, gluttony and sloth.
We were not taught the seven heavenly virtues of Faith, Hope, Charity, justice, temperance, prudence, and fortitude. The first three are theological virtues as they come from God alone. When we are born again we are washed in the waters of baptism and we receive the gifts of Faith to know that God IS, Hope that God will fulfill His promise in us, and Charity to love God and seek to please Him with all our heart mind and soul. The other four are cardinal virtues that have to worked at aka put into practice to perfect. In Protestants circles we were told that works were meaningless, so no one tried. It is sad, many Protestants see that is not true, but many don’t. There was always the problem of antinomian and once saved always saved that was difficult to combat.
In the Catholic Church there are many that are not well catechized, and it takes work to seek it out. It is all written down if we look for it. We have the testimony of many saints over 2000 years. It takes effort, but Our Lord promises, you will seek me and you shall find me when you search with all of your heart

May the Lord continue to call you to Himself as the Spirit of God leads.

I don't know which branch of the Plymouth Brethren you were involved with, but my experience with the Brethren was quite the opposite of what you described. Which branch were you in fellowship with and how long was it?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If the protestant argument is that the EO is the true Church and Rome is in schism, I guess that means all of Protestantism is in schism too

That surely stands to reason and, for once, I am in complete agreement with you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I've already addressed what happens when one parts way with His Church on faith and morals.

Then why is it that these German bishops continue to exercise authority over the Catholic churches in Germany? Why have they not been excommunicated?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus does not have to humble Himself to anyone. Please stop your attacks against the Catholic Church. If you choose to humble yourself at sometime and say so that is up to you, if you choose to confess your own errors that is up to you, but please quit attacking Catholics. What you think others should be confessing should be kept to yourself. If you have something specific you disagree with you are welcome to say state your disagreement that is what discussions are for.

I apologize for the offence I have caused to you. I am prone to become irritated with people like myself who rush to defend their denominations without realizing how much they expose themselves to rebuttal. I will try to limit myself in the future.

 

[concretecamper]

Then why is it that these German bishops continue to exercise authority over the Catholic churches in Germany? Why have they not been excommunicated?

I think you need to study a bit more about the remedy of excommunication and it's forms. Hint "latae sententiae" and "ferendae sententiae"

 

[concretecamper]

That surely stands to reason and, for once, I am in complete agreement with you.

so when are you joining the EO Church?

 

[Valletta]

Are Faithful Catholics also Roman Catholics?

I apologize for the offence I have caused to you. I am prone to become irritated with people like myself who rush to defend their denominations without realizing how much they expose themselves to rebuttal. I will try to limit myself in the future.

First, as I last told you a week or so ago, the name of our Church is the Catholic Church. I am a Catholic and my rite is the Roman rite, which is by far the most popular. So you don't have an excuse to bring up the same subject every week I will expand. Sometimes Roman Catholic is used on signs at churches, it is helpful for those who want to go to mass in a Catholic Church or for other reasons to identify the church. It is shorter to say than "Catholic Church of the Roman (or Latin) liturgical rite." Unfortunately some religions, sometimes religions that have broken off from the church, incorrectly use the name Catholic. Again, it can be helpful to see a church with a sign "Roman Catholic." The official name of our Church is the "Catholic Church." There are other liturgical rites, just as valid, and people of all rites can be just as faithful.
My concern is in regard to the falsehoods you tell about the Catholic Church, such as your recent slur stating "Interestingly, it was the Roman Catholic Church which came up with the concept of propaganda." I worry that those seeking Jesus will be fooled.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why is that? Could it be that the only thing stopping it is human pride?
God is not pleased with pride. Humble yourself, become a child and follow your Lord.

Think you know how to run a church better than anyone? Do you know the Bible so well that you can’t be wrong? Have a direct line to Jesus?

Beware, those are the same lies Satan told Eve. You shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Repent, the kingdom of God is at hand. He does run a kingdom, not a democracy. Be sure you want to follow the Lord, and do not desire Him to follow you

This is not about me, so your remarks directed at me personally are pointless. The thread is about whether Sola Scriptura is self refuting or not. I support Sola Scriptura because the Bible is the only source material that gives us a clear picture of the nature of God and His plan of salvation for mankind. There is only one God and He is the God of the Bible. Jesus is the historical Jesus described in the four Gospels. There is no other God, or Jesus outside of the Bible. The only clear way to salvation in Christ is found solely in the Bible and nowhere else. All other literature and tradition is man's opinion only.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I don't know which branch of the Plymouth Brethren you were involved with, but my experience with the Brethren was quite the opposite of what you described. Which branch were you in fellowship with and how long was it?

I did not specifically describe my association with Plymouth brethren but listed them as ones I have attended. I attended a group in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania from 1985-1987. I had nothing to do with the administration of the Friendship Gospel Chapel, but soon after I left, they went bankrupt due to low attendance, and the building was sold.
What I remember of them was that they denied the baptism in the Holy Spirit and could not explain their reasons for doing so. This corresponds to the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation, but at that time in my life, I went to the Assembly of God. The other thing I remember of them was that they were against works. The were against penance, and their justification was the thief on the cross. They said he did not do anything, and Jesus promised him paradise the same day. What they failed to note was that the thief was in mortal agony and receiving the just punishment for his sins right next to Jesus. This was by the thief's own admission. I am sure that there are brethren that pursue holiness, but the ones that I encountered had strong worldliness and saw no need for penance. They were not outwardly evil by any means, and by the world's standard, decent people, but I got a feeling of lukewarm, neither hot nor cold. There was a don't rock the boat mentality.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

This is not about me, so your remarks directed at me personally are pointless. The thread is about whether Sola Scriptura is self refuting or not. I support Sola Scriptura because the Bible is the only source material that gives us a clear picture of the nature of God and His plan of salvation for mankind. There is only one God and He is the God of the Bible. Jesus is the historical Jesus described in the four Gospels. There is no other God, or Jesus outside of the Bible. The only clear way to salvation in Christ is found solely in the Bible and nowhere else. All other literature and tradition is man's opinion only.

ok, so your opinion is that history is meaningless. The way that the Church behaved in the past has no bearing on how she will behave now or in the future? It's the Bible only, and every man for himself? The youth can learn nothing from their elders? Is that what I am hearing?

 

[bbbbbbb]

so when are you joining the EO Church?

Probably when I learn Greek. Unfortunately, the only EO churches in the area here are Greek and they have no problems with being known as Greek Orthodox Churches. I admire much about them, including their shared heritage in Greek culture.