Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?

[BBAS 64]

2 Timothy 3:14-16
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Good Day, Maria


Historically understood:

Chrysostom (349-407): HOMILY IX 2 Timothy iii. 16, 17.— For this reason he writes: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” All what Scripture? all that sacred writing, he means, of which I was speaking. This is said of what he was discoursing of; about which he said, “From a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures.” All such, then, “is given by inspiration of God”; therefore, he means, do not doubt; and it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

“For doctrine.” For thence we shall know, whether we ought to learn or to be ignorant of anything. And thence we may disprove what is false, thence we may be corrected and brought to a right mind, may be comforted and consoled, and if anything is deficient, we may have it added to us. “That the man of God may be perfect.” For this is the exhortation of the Scripture given, that the man of God may be rendered perfect by it; without this therefore he cannot be perfect. Thou hast the Scriptures, he says, in place of me. If thou wouldest learn anything, thou mayest learn it from them. And if he thus wrote to Timothy, who was filled with the Spirit, how much more to us!
“Thoroughly furnished unto all good works”; not merely taking part in them, he means, but “thoroughly furnished.” NPNF1: Vol. XIII, Homilies on the Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy, Homily 9.



In Him,

Bill

 

[DragonFox91]

You said that for Catholics tradition and scripture are "more or less the same thing."

I gave you a timestamped link where Akin addresses this exact topic. He begins, "Can Catholics acknowledge that Scripture has a unique role or authority compared to tradition and the Magisterium? And I wanted to address that, and the answer is 'yes'..." Akin goes on to explain why they are not "more or less the same thing."

Please cease with your dishonest posts.

So you do not interpret Word to also mean word from the church or magisterium? In that case they have little authority & is manmade. So when you read those NT passages about the Word, it is referring to the Written Word alone, that is what you are telling me.
He did NOT address the Catholic doctrine the Church is the extended reincarnation of Jesus, neither. I found the timestamped part lacking. All he said was the Spirit was in the Apostles when they wrote the Written Word. He did NOT address the magisterium & church. Which is what I was talking about.

 

[The Liturgist]

So you do not interpret Word to also mean word from the church or magisterium? In that case they have little authority & is manmade. So when you read those NT passages about the Word, it is referring to the Written Word alone, that is what you are telling me.
He did NOT address the Catholic doctrine the Church is the extended reincarnation of Jesus, neither. I found the timestamped part lacking. All he said was the Spirit was in the Apostles when they wrote the Written Word. He did NOT address the magisterium & church. Which is what I was talking about.

It is not Roman Catholic doctrine that the Church is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.

Rather, in 1 Corinthians 12:27 and Ephesians 4:12 , the Church is called the Body of Christ, and Ephesians further describes Christ as the Head of the Church, and our salvation as consisting of our being grafted on to the Body of Christ, and this Biblical doctrine of the Church, is broadly adopted by different Christians, regardless of how we define the Church (whether using Roman ecclesiology, Byzantine ecclesiology, Branch ecclesiology, Local Church ecclesiology, or Invisible Church ecclesiology).

 

[concretecamper]

The scripture is how all things must be tested:

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

And if it goes against scripture, we are warned these is no light- meaning it is not coming from God.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God said His Word is a light to our path Psalms 119:105 and is the only path that leads us to the narrow gate Jesus told us to take. Matthew 7:13-14

There is a great deceiver who deceives the whole world- so the way we shield ourselves is through God's Word. which we are told to not add to. Proverbs 30:5-6 Deut 4:2

Care to post anything about the New Covenant?

Sola Sciptura is a man made idea.

 

[concretecamper]

Is Sola Scriptura actually a doctrine?

I would argue that Sola Scriptura is a method for testing whether a doctrine is legitimate or not and not a doctrine in and of itself.

I agree. It is a method chosen by some. And it is not scriptural.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Care to post anything about the New Covenant?

Sola Sciptura is a man made idea.

Sure.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

This idea that somehow the NT deletes God’s Word in the OT is going to have a lot of people deceived.

The last book in the Bible says the same thing….

Revelation 18: For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

It’s a constant theme in God’s Holy Word- do not add or subtract from and if we believe in God we should believe in the consequences God promises.

 

[fhansen]

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

Yes, but they, the Bereans, could not discern the meaning of Scripture-going by Scriupture alone. They required the input of a certain group of people, the church, Christ's disciples, who could interpret it for them in light of the revelation they received. Similarly the Ethiopian Eunuch required the input of Phillip.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, but they, the Bereans, could not discern the meaning of Scripture-going by Scriupture alone. They required the input of a certain group of people, the church, Christ's disciples, who could interpret it for them in light of the revelation they received. Similarly the Ethiopian Eunuch required the input of Phillip.

There is no scripture that says we need to go outside scripture to understand scripture. Certainly there is some scripture hard to understand, but one of the promises of Jesus is that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and will bring remembrance to everything He (the Word) has said. John 14:26 Going outside of scripture comes with its warmings Isaiah 8:20 and His Word is a light to our path Psalms 119:105- not something else.

 

[concretecamper]

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

The scripture Timothy knew from his youth is the Tanakh. The Tanakh is what Paul is referencing. Anyway all this say is scripture is profitable, it doesnt say ONLY scripture is profitable.

Revelation 18: For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

No one is considering adding the the Book of Revelation

 

[fhansen]

There is no scripture that says we need to go outside scripture to understand scripture. Certainly there is some scripture hard to understand, but one of the promises of Jesus is that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and will bring remembrance to everything He (the Word) has said. John 14:26 Going outside of scripture comes with its warmings Isaiah 8:20 and His Word is a light to our path Psalms 119:105- not something else.

One must develop a trust for Scripture first of all, just as they must also delveop a trust in Tradition if they're to believe in it. And as I've experienced it we cannot know many things from Scripture alone but must also have the input of the historic experience of the church as it received the revelation of Christ from the beggining. And Scripture does agree anyway it would seem:
"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thess 2:15

As far as the HS teaching us all things, He will, not without the help of His church which received His revelation, the "deposit of faith" as it's sometimes called, before a word of the New Testament was written and well before its canon was agreed upon and assembled-by the church.

And I've dialogued round and round over many significant Scriptural interpretations with people claiming to be Spirit-led while they disagree with others claiming to be Spirit-led, with each side often having quite plausible positions-going by Scripture alone. Scriptural interpretations were never intended to be strictly private.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

One must develop a trust for Scripture first of all, just as they must also delveop a trust in Tradition

Traditions from scriptures, not traditions of man. Jesus warned us clearly when we place traditions of man over His Word and the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

When churches think they have the authority to change commandments despite God saying not one word can be altered Deut 4:2 that is dangerous territory regardless how much the majority has gone along with it. Jesus tells us not not follow the majority, we are to follow Him and His example. 1 John 2:3-6.

if they're to believe in it. And as I've experienced it we cannot know many things from Scripture alone but must also have the input of the historic experience of the church as it received the revelation of Christ from the beggining. And Scripture does agree anyway it would seem:
"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thess 2:15

From scripture- it does not say word of mouth outside of scripture- we could make any argument we wanted this way which is why Isaiah 8:20 once again gives us warning of this very thing.

As far as the HS teaching us all things, He will, not without the help of His church which received His revelation, the "deposit of faith" as it's sometimes called, before a word of the New Testament was written and well before its canon was agreed upon and assembled-by the church.

Let’s see if the Word “church” has been added here and God’s Church are those who follow His Word.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. If Jesus wanted to say “the Church” here instead of “you” He would have said so.

The word “you” is not the definition of church. It is a person.

you
ὑμᾶς (hymas)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4771: You. The person pronoun of the second person singular; thou.

And I've dialogued round and round over many significant Scriptural interpretations with people claiming to be Spirit-led while they disagree with others claiming to be Spirit-led, with each side often having quite plausible positions-going by Scripture alone. Scriptural interpretations were never intended to be strictly private.

Only God’s knows our hearts and God said His Word is the light to our path Pslams 119:105 and outside of that there is no light Isaiah 8:20

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The scripture Timothy knew from his youth is the Tanakh. The Tanakh is what Paul is referencing. Anyway all this say is scripture is profitable, it doesnt say ONLY scripture is profitable.


No one is considering adding the the Book of Revelation

Is that how we interpret scripture- by going off what it doesn’t say instead of going by what it does say? We could make scripture say anything we want doing it this way, but at the end, we would only be deceiving ourselves instead of following God’s Word.

 

[fhansen]

Traditions from scriptures, not traditions of man. Jesus warned us clearly when we place traditions of man over His Word and the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

When churches think they have the authority to change commandments despite God saying not one word can be altered Deut 4:2 that is dangerous territory despite how much the majority has gone along with it. Jesus tells us not not follow the majority, we are to follow Him and His example. 1 John 2:3-6

From scripture- it does not say word of mouth outside of scripture- which Isaiah 8:20 once again gives us warning of this very thing.


Let’s see if the Word “church” has been added here and God’s Church are those who follow His Word.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

The word “you” is not the definition of church. It is a person.

you
ὑμᾶς (hymas)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4771: You. The person pronoun of the second person singular; thou.



Only God’s knows our hearts and God said His Word is the light to our path Pslams 119:105 and outside of that there is no light Isaiah 8:20

Private interpretations of Scripture, such as those resulting in the Reformed teachings on justification, as an example, are "traditions of men". Obviously 2 Thess 2:15 was speaking of no such traditions in any case. And the purpose of Scripture, Tradition, and the church that correctly interprets both is so that you will be led into all truth, with the Holy Spirit working within and through all four of those.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Private interpretations of Scripture, such as those resulting in the Reformed teachings on justifaction, as an example, are "traditions of men". Obviously 2 Thess 2:15 was speaking of no such traditions in any case. And the purpose of Scripture, Tradition, and the church that correctly interprets both is so that you will be led into all truth, with the Holy Spirit working within all four of those.

The Holy Spirit promises to teach us all things and bring in remembrance to what Jesus said (His Word) and is given to help obey God’s Word- His commandments John 14:15-18 and given to those who obey Acts 5:32 We will not be judged based on which denomination we belong to, we are all judged based on following His Word, which is why it’s important to stay focused on His Word and not get distracted with things outside of it that can lead us away from the lighted path Psalms 119:105.

Ecclesiastes 12:13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

 

[fhansen]

The Holy Spirit promises to teach us all things and bring in remembrance to what Jesus said (His Word) and is given to help obey God’s Word- His commandments John 14:15-18 and given to those who obey Acts 5:32 We will not be judged based on which denomination we belong to, we are all judged based on following His Word, which is why it’s important to stay focused on His Word and not get distracted with things outside of it that can lead us away from the lighted path Psalms 119:105.

Yes, and both Scripture and Tradition are sources of God's Word. And, again, very sincere and well-intentioned people disagree all day long on Scirptural meanings, all claiming to be Spirit-led. All you can say is that you, personally, have been infallibly led into correct understanding of the truth while the other guy has not. But God determines how we're to understand His revelation, His Word. And He's guaranteed that His church would be so guided as to fully and accurately preserve that understanding, regardless of the weak vessels He uses-complete with our frailites, limitations, weaknesses, and sin. Otherwise we're often simply engaging in best-guess understanding of His Word, centuries after the fact with no historical guidance involved.

Without the church we'd have neither Scripture as we know it today, or a general consensus, at least, among most Christians, of correct understanding of the nature of Christ, nor the collective cloud of witnesses that have heard and testified to the truth, the light, they've received from her, well before most were literate or educated to any great degree, incidentally. The faith is not about biblical exegesis first and foremost but about the gospel as it was written in the heart of the chruch from the beginning, and transmitted to her people.

 

[BBAS 64]

Private interpretations of Scripture, such as those resulting in the Reformed teachings on justification, as an example, are "traditions of men". Obviously 2 Thess 2:15 was speaking of no such traditions in any case. And the purpose of Scripture, Tradition, and the church that correctly interprets both is so that you will be led into all truth, with the Holy Spirit working within and through all four of those.

Good Day, fhansen

I guess that could be true if one had mistakenly found the Roman Catholic Churches name it claim it fallacies somewhat compelling.

I know that you do I do not... I would say in doing so (subjectively) you have erred.

That is why I am not part of that church.

Question on 2 Thess 2:15 - you have an interesting private interpretation of that passage.

Who received them from Paul?
What were they?
Are you sure they are not in the Scripture ( Jewish OT or NT)

If you have an primary historical source that would be most useful.

Not that it changes the meaning and function of SS in the Church (historically. Rather just a question on your understanding of 2 Thess.



In Him,

Bill

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, and both Scripture and Tradition are sources of God's Word. And, again, very sincere and well-intentioned people disagree all day long on Scirptural meanings, all claiming to be Spirit-led. All you can say is that you, personally, have been infallibly led into correct understanding of the truth while the other guy has not. But God determines how we're to understand His revelation, His Word. And He's guaranteed that His church would be so guided as to fully and accurately preserve that understanding, regardless of the weak vessels He uses-complete with our frailites, limitations, weaknesses, and sin. Otherwise we're often simply engaging in best-guess understanding of His Word, centuries after the fact with no historical guidance involved.

Without the church we'd have neither Scripture as we know it today, or a general consensus, at least, among most Christians, of correct understanding of the nature of Christ, nor the collective cloud of witnesses that have heard and testified to the truth, the light, they've received from her, well before most were literate or educated to any great degree, incidentally. The faith is not about biblical exegesis first and foremost but about the gospel as it was written in the heart of the chruch from the beginning, and transmitted to her people.

Jesus warned us of following traditions over God’s Word. Matthew 15:3-9 For me, I am going to believe His warning and the other warnings of God’s Word not to go outside of His Word. Isaiah 8:20 God gives us free will, but if scripture and the catholic church tradition were equal, I am sure Jesus would have said something instead of condemning those who follow tradition over God’s Word. The is nothing between us and Jesus and He is our Mediator between God. There is no Jesus and…..just Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

Jesus warned us of following traditions over God’s Word. Matthew 15:3-9 For me, I am going to believe His warning and the other warnings of God’s Word not to go outside of His Word. Isaiah 8:20 God gives us free will, but if scripture and the catholic church tradition were equal, I am sure Jesus would have said something instead of condemning those who follow tradition over God’s Word. The is nothing between us and Jesus and He is our Mediator between God. There is no Jesus and…..just Jesus.

The problem is that Scripture was never even intended to serve as some sort of clear and exhaustivve catechism even if people try to use it that way. Jesus understood and interpreted Scripture correctly-not necesarily anyone else. And He conveyed to us that truth whether it was ever written down or not. And Scripture, itself, tells us that not eveything He said and did were even recorded in Scripture. You, OTOH, follow traditions of men. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is the very reason we have so much divison and disagreement within the church. You should read the ECFs with some degree of intensity and you'll soon find out what the early church believed.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The problem is that Scripture was never even intended to serve as some sort of clear and exhaustivve catechism even if people try to use it that way. Jesus understood and interpreted Scripture correctly-not necesarily anyone else. And He conveyed to us that truth whether it was ever written down or not. And Scripture, itself, tells us that not eveything He said and did were even recorded in Scripture. You, OTOH, follow traditions of men. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is the very reason we have so much divison and disagreement within the church. You should read the ECFs with some degree of intensity and you'll soon find out what the early church believed.

Thats your opinion, scripture tells us it is the lighted path to our feet Psalms 119:105. Everything we need for salvation is found in scripture so no need to go off the lighted path into darkness.

 

[fhansen]

Good Day, fhansen

I guess that could be true if one had mistakenly found the Roman Catholic Churches name it claim it fallacies somewhat compelling.

I know that you do I do not... I would say in doing so (subjectively) you have erred.

That is why I am not part of that church.

Question on 2 Thess 2:15 - you have an interesting private interpretation of that passage.

Who received them from Paul?
What were they?
Are you sure they are not in the Scripture ( Jewish OT or NT)

If you have an primary historical source that would be most useful.

Not that it changes the meaning and function of SS in the Church (historically. Rather just a question on your understanding of 2 Thess.



In Him,

Bill

Well, John 21:25 agrees that not everything Jesus said or did was recorded in Scripture. Nor need it be since He conveyed His teachings to His people regardless. And while you'll find praise and admiration and reverence and understanding of the importance of Scripture in the early fathers you will not find that as something separate from the church and its undrerstanding; you will not find SS IOW. That's a departure. I left Protestantism when I began to understand the fallacy behind this doctrine, and would've had to give up on the faith altogether if it depended on exegesis of Scripture alone since I came to admit that it left way too many uncertainies. The church, east and/or west, is absolutely essential in having correct understanding. Protestants can't even agree over baptismal regeneration-a matter of soteriology. SS necessarily involves private interpretation.