Is sin the reason for one's damnation or not?

[Hammster]

So, basically, you couldn't refute what I said. As I thought.

Even your charge is ridiculous. My view comes from verses that actually SAYS what I believe, unlike RT, which can't do that. RT is forced to take a passage that does NOT SAY what they believe, yet they pretend it does.

For example, your claim that John 3ff teaches that regeneration precedes faith. Yet, there are no specific words or phrases to come to that conclusion, so the claim is false.

When there are no specific words or phrases to back up your claim, said claim is empty. I sure wouldn't accept an empty theology.

Shallow is far deeper than empty. In anybody's book.

You just keep making my point more appropriate. You only want words and phrases, not thoughts. Your methodology could never prove the Trinity.

 

[Hammster]

Wrong. Paul equated being made alive with being saved. Even a quick read of Eph 2:5 shows that.

btw, being made alive and regeneration are not equated. They are the SAME THING.

Salvation (being saved) is election, predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification. Your view is "you get eternal life". Shallow.

 

[cygnusx1]

Salvation (being saved) is election, predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification. Your view is "you get eternal life". Shallow.

Absolutely right Hammster !

That is why it is disingenuous to argue we are not chosen for salvation but only chosen to be sanctified , or "we are not predestined to salvation but only to be like Christ " which antinomians disavow anyway .

As is if there are any but the saved who fit these blessings ...

Btw , shallow ideology is reproved in scripture (James)

 

[nobdysfool]

How come there is never any attempt to prove your claim about my verses being used out of context. Throwing out charges without any evidence is easy to do. But since my verses aren't out of context, I understand why there isn't any evidence to accompany the charges.

Quite frankly, because it is blatantly obvious to anyone with reading comprehension skills, and the ability to allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate their understanding...

 

[FreeGrace2]

You just keep making my point more appropriate. You only want words and phrases, not thoughts.

Oh, I see. Thoughts are not made up of words and phrases. Interesting! I never knew that! Thanks for the info.

Your methodology could never prove the Trinity.

I just love being able to contradict and refute the false charges of others.

Trinity means God is One in essence and three in Persons. There is ample evidence for that in Scripture:

Matt 28:19 - “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

2 Cor 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

And I'm sure that you are aware of all the verses that identifies the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as God.

Charge refuted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation (being saved) is election, predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification. Your view is "you get eternal life". Shallow.

Again, another false charge. Of course I've acknowledged that salvation is all of the above. Why are you trying to misrepresent my view?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
How come there is never any attempt to prove your claim about my verses being used out of context. Throwing out charges without any evidence is easy to do. But since my verses aren't out of context, I understand why there isn't any evidence to accompany the charges.
to which came your response:

Quite frankly, because it is blatantly obvious to anyone with reading comprehension skills, and the ability to allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate their understanding...

In addition to not finishing your insulting statement, it didn't address my comments. And, btw, it is blatantly obvious to anyone with reading comprehension skills and the ability to allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate their understanding that your response didn't address my comment. Not to mention any refutation or correction.

 

[Hammster]

Oh, I see. Thoughts are not made up of words and phrases. Interesting! I never knew that! Thanks for the info.


I just love being able to contradict and refute the false charges of others.

Trinity means God is One in essence and three in Persons. There is ample evidence for that in Scripture:

Matt 28:19 - “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

2 Cor 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

And I'm sure that you are aware of all the verses that identifies the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as God.

Charge refuted.

Nothing in those verses state that the Father is God, the Som is God, and the Spirit is God. The verses just assume it.

So still no verse.

Charge stands.

 

[Hammster]

Again, another false charge. Of course I've acknowledged that salvation is all of the above. Why are you trying to misrepresent my view?

All I can do is go by your posts. I can't read minds.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nothing in those verses state that the Father is God, the Som is God, and the Spirit is God. The verses just assume it.

So still no verse.

Charge stands.

Many verses say that. I showed 2 verses where all are named in one verse. But we all know your opinion of "just one verse". Or, make that two.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All I can do is go by your posts. I can't read minds.

From what your posts say, there is also a problem of reading what I post. Your conclusions aren't even close to what I post.

 

[nobdysfool]

I don't need to refute you. You'd just flippantly claim that no refutation had taken place. Scripture does so quite nicely, despite your efforts. And it is also quite clear what the agenda is here, and that is to antagonize and demonize Calvinism, and by extension Calvinists. And a very sharp tongue toward anyone who would dare to challenge your views.

 

[janxharris]

Not at all. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is at hand. And you can't see it or enter it without being born again. And then He says you must be born of water and Spirit. But then He goes on to say that just like the wind blows where it wishes, and you can't see it or know where it comes from, so it is with those who are born from the Spirit. Belief isn't even mentioned until well into the chapter. This is why you must read it as a whole instead of picking and choosing the verses that you thing disprove Calvinism.

All you have done is correctly point out that one will not see or enter the kingdom of God unless one is born again. John 1:13 is explicit when it come to the order of faith and regeneration. So is Eph 1:13.

You have no explicit verse that says otherwise, so I can be forgiven for remaining a non-Calvinist.

 

[Hammster]

All you have done is correctly point out that one will not see or enter the kingdom of God unless one is born again. John 1:13 is explicit when it come to the order of faith and regeneration. So is Eph 1:13.

You have no explicit verse that says otherwise, so I can be forgiven for remaining a non-Calvinist.

I have as many explicit verses as you do for the Trinity.

 

[janxharris]

The seal of the Holy Spirit is not regeneration. Not sure why you'd think it is. Especially since Paul talks about regeneration in the next chapter. Maybe you can do some research on what a seal meant back then. Fascinating picture.

Sorry, but this is not a refutation.

Faith isn't even mentioned until verse 8. I'm sure you're just accustomed to understanding it that way. But Paul is clear that we are made alive by grace. Paul goes through great lengths to show our deadness. There's a reason. It's because dead men don't have faith. They are dead. But I'm sure you'll need to discount that word picture to prop up your tradition.

There is no explicit assertion in those verses that has regeneration before faith.

Well, Jesus did mention it. John 3.

This is you response to:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

It makes no sense that Jesus and the apostles should preach the gospel and yet fail to mention that regeneration is of God's choosing, is unconditional, and comes before faith.

Question:
Does the gift of the Holy Spirit come before or after faith in this scripture?

 

[janxharris]

I have as many explicit verses as you do for the Trinity.

Having a complete understanding of the nature of the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not necessary for one's salvation. However, if it is the case that regeneration is the sine qua non of faith and salvation then it would vital that men understood this and could clearly see proof of it in scripture.

Where is it? It's evanescent...like chasing a shadow...but when it comes to faith coming before regeneration it is explicit.

 

[Hammster]

Sorry, but this is not a refutation.



There is no explicit assertion in those verses that has regeneration before faith.




This is you response to:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

It makes no sense that Jesus and the apostles should preach the gospel and yet fail to mention that regeneration is of God's choosing, is unconditional, and comes before faith.

Question:
Does the gift of the Holy Spirit come before or after faith in this scripture?

After. But you'll have to make an argument that the gift of the Holy Spirit is regeneration. I, however, can show that regeneration is from the Spirit, with no mention of belief.

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8 NASB)

 

[Hammster]

Having a complete understanding of the nature of the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not necessary for one's salvation. However, if it is the case that regeneration is the sine qua non of faith and salvation then it would vital that men understood this and could clearly see proof of it in scripture.

Where is it? It's evanescent...like chasing a shadow...but when it comes to faith coming before regeneration it is explicit.

Having a complete understanding of salvation is not necessary for ones salvation. Having an understanding of the Trinity is more important than an understanding of election or regeneration.

And you've yet to show where faith comes before regeneration. It's just not there.

 

[nobdysfool]

It amazes me that someone here basically insists that if Calvinism be true, then everyone clear back to Paul must include explicit disclaimers in their preaching. In essence, trying to force 21st century political correctness on the Gospel. What kind of madness is this?

 

[cygnusx1]

Having a complete understanding of salvation is not necessary for ones salvation. Having an understanding of the Trinity is more important than an understanding of election or regeneration.

And you've yet to show where faith comes before regeneration. It's just not there.

Has he even shown where faith comes from , never mind the sequence !

If my faith came from me I would have lost it years ago , I am not capable of saving myself now or at the start .