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Is sin really so bad?

MikeMcK

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Really? What part of taking a city by force, killing every person except for the virgin women, and taking those women for your own does not mean rape?

Every part that does not mention rape which, in this case, is all of it.

Do you honestly believe that a woman who just watched a person kill every person she in her family with the exception of a sister or cousin that has not lain with a man will willingly accept that killer as a husband?

Given that she is raised in a culture where that is the expected norm and understands that she is essentially worthless and her life is over otherwise, yes.

That to even take that man as a husband, she must shave her head (which is a form of humiliation, if I am not mistaken) and can then be his wife only until he tires of her?

Actually, it's a kind of purification ritual, not humiliation.

And as for the prophecies. Those are supposed to come true, right? So just because the rape has not happened yet, but an all powerful being promises that it will happen, makes it okay?

First of all, this is poetic language and not literal.

Second, that God says that something will happen does not mean that God wills it or encourages it.

And you accuse atheists of situational ethics...

Yes, I do.
 
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IzzyPop

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Every part that does not mention rape which, in this case, is all of it.
And the whole of it is rape. I mentioned once that is does not explicitly state rape. But to not see that this is what it is requires one to close ones eyes to human behavior.


Given that she is raised in a culture where that is the expected norm and understands that she is essentially worthless and her life is over otherwise, yes.
So a slave owner having sex with an unwilling slave in the 1840's was not raping her? Because it was expected? That comes awful close to the woman deserving it because of the clothes she wears or the fact that she got drunk with the wrong guy.



Actually, it's a kind of purification ritual, not humiliation.
You wouldn't have any citations for that would you? The only ones I can find are that shaving a woman's head was a form of public humiliation. I have found references to men shaving their head in mourning, but not women.



First of all, this is poetic language and not literal.

Second, that God says that something will happen does not mean that God wills it or encourages it.
So an all-powerful being that lets bad things happen is somehow better than a being that causes those things to happen?



Very good, Mr. Pot.
 
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MikeMcK

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And the whole of it is rape. I mentioned once that is does not explicitly state rape. But to not see that this is what it is requires one to close ones eyes to human behavior.

Nothing about rape in any of the passages you cited.

So a slave owner having sex with an unwilling slave in the 1840's was not raping her?

Which verse is that?

You wouldn't have any citations for that would you?

None that you'd take seriously.

So an all-powerful being that lets bad things happen is somehow better than a being that causes those things to happen?

Yes. And, in any event, you didn't say "allows things to happen", you said "encourages rape".

Very good, Mr. Pot.

Thank you, Mr. Childish Name Caller.
 
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TexasSky

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It really depends on the "sin" in question. There are a few things that humans, in this day and age, almost universally believe are wrong:
Theft, Murder, and Rape (and, to some extent, Lying).

Even people who do these acts don't want the act done to them (a thief doesn't want their goods stolen - a murderer doesn't want to be killed - a rapist doesn't want to be raped - and a liar doesn't want others to lie to them).

But there are many things identified as "sin" in the Bible that most people don't really believe are wrong in all situations (should one honor their abusive father and alcoholic mother?). I think that secular society could allow religious people to not do whatever they feel is wrong, and religious people could allow secular society to legalize anything they wish. (Remember people, it counts more to resist a legal, available temptation - rather than trying to make a temptation illegal and unavailable so that one doesn't have to do the work of resisting it!)
"Honor thy Father and thy Mother," does not mean, "treat an abusive parent with great respect."

It means, "Live your life in a way that it would do honor to your parents."

In other words, even if your parents are a louse, if you are not, people will think you had good parents.
 
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TexasSky

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Wow, you quote only where I said no Christian country opposed Hitler until being attacked and come back with this? Sorry, I don't believe that Deitrich Bonhoffer has ever been a country, so I don't see where that applies to what I was saying.

Strange that you took out the part of my previous post where I said, "Few Christians opposed Hitler", which obviously infers that a minority of Christians (like Deitrich Bonhoffer and the Confessing Church) did. This does not negate the position of the mainstream churches or the fact the current pope was in the Hitler Youth and fought for Germany in the war.
What do you consider to be a "Christian country"?
 
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Maren

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What do you consider to be a "Christian country"?

For the most part I've used the idea of countries whose citizens are overwhelmingly Christian. At the time of WWII, this would include almost all of Europe (other than the Soviet Union, and maybe even there despite the governments official position), the United States and Canada. But I don't think the definition matters, since no country directly confronted Hitler until after Germany attacked Poland (which had treaties with other European nations which brought them into the war). It is worth point out, however, that most of the European countries were/are officially Christian.
 
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TexasSky

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Let's see.

Christ said the greatest commandment is to love God.
This is also the first commandment of the old testament.

I think anyone who calls theirself a Christiaqn has to accept this is a given. It certainly does not harm anyone to love God. It does tremendous harm not to.

The second greatest commandment, in the old testatment, goes hand in hand with the first, and I think could fairly be called a part of the first.

It is the commandment not to make idols or worship idols.

Now, in history, people have violated this. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson, certain kings have claimed to be gods. The results were horrendous each and every time.

According to Christ, the second commandment is to "love your neighbor as yourself."

Well, lets see. Treating other people with the same love and respect that you want them to treat you with - how is that tearing up society?

How is not doing that helping society?

In the old testament, it says, don't use the Lord's name in vain. In other words, don't say, "God wants this," if God didn't say it first. Don't "use God's name and title and authority" for your own personal benefit or profit.

I think we can all see how that is a good thing.

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Now, the sabbath is a day when you rest from your work, and you spend time in fellowship with God and your loved ones.

Doesn't have to be a Saturday, doesn't have to be a Sunday. All it is supposed to be is a time when you stop, take a break, rest, remember God and love. Doesn't even have to be a church. Adam didn't have one.

Honor your father and mother. "Live your life in a way that will cause others to think well of your parents."
That's what it REALLY means.

Don't murder.
Don't commit adultery.
Don't steal.
Don't give false testimony about your neighbor.
Don't get jealous over your neighbor's property!
Don't get jealous over your neighbor's wife!

Yes sir, those sure are terrible ideas!

Come on people!

Which of these 10 do you REALLY think is so bad?

Which of these are you willing to walk up to your parents or teachers or ministers and say, "You know. I really, really dislike this rule. Don't you agree I should be allowed to break it?"
 
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WatersMoon110

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"Honor thy Father and thy Mother," does not mean, "treat an abusive parent with great respect."

It means, "Live your life in a way that it would do honor to your parents."

In other words, even if your parents are a louse, if you are not, people will think you had good parents.
I'm sorry, where does it say that in the Bible?
 
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IzzyPop

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Nothing about rape in any of the passages you cited.
I think I am about done running around in circles on this one. If you refuse to see it for what it is, then so be it.



Which verse is that?
Never said it was a verse. It was an analogy.



None that you'd take seriously.
You would be surprised. I actually know little about the subject and am always open to learning. The little bit of hunting around on the internet that I did, however, did not show me what you were talking about. To be 100% honest, I found only a few things to back my assumption that it was a form of humiliation. So, post or not, it makes little difference to me. But I do actually back down and retract erroneous statements when I am shown to be wrong.

Not that it happens too often...;)



Yes. And, in any event, you didn't say "allows things to happen", you said "encourages rape".
Then I will retract my statement of 2 Samuel encouraging rape. The rest will stand.



Thank you, Mr. Childish Name Caller.
I actually laughed.:thumbsup:

No problem.
 
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TexasSky

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So, you think that we should attack any country, right now, that is reportedly carrying out terrible acts against its own citizens. Even if we were not 100% certain these rumors are true?

Remember, the world did not know for a fact what Hitler was doing until he attacked other countries. Until then, there were a few rumors, but the world was seriously divided on whether the rumors were true or not.
 
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cantata

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So, you think that we should attack any country, right now, that is reportedly carrying out terrible acts against its own citizens. Even if we were not 100% certain these rumors are true?

Remember, the world did not know for a fact what Hitler was doing until he attacked other countries. Until then, there were a few rumors, but the world was seriously divided on whether the rumors were true or not.

I wish you'd post quotes so we knew to whom you were replying :(
 
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WatersMoon110

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Don't murder.
This, along with not stealing or lying (if we can assume that God was talking about not lying all of the time, and not just in trail against one's neighbor), are basically universally seen as "bad" in most societies today. And they were so before Christianity (or even Judaism) in many societies.
Don't get jealous over your neighbor's property!
Don't get jealous over your neighbor's wife!

Yes sir, those sure are terrible ideas!
Um...we live in a capitalist society, which is basically based on consumerism. I would say that people not wanting what their neighbors have would be pretty bad for the economy. And, really, some people can be happy with what they have, and others will always want something new (be it consumer goods, new experiences, or new knowledge).
Come on people!

Which of these 10 do you REALLY think is so bad?

Which of these are you willing to walk up to your parents or teachers or ministers and say, "You know. I really, really dislike this rule. Don't you agree I should be allowed to break it?"
Well, the whole "worship God not false idols, and (by the way) all other gods are idols" bit is a bit upsetting, I feel. But that's more the interpretation of it than what it says.

Really (other than the "honor thy parents" thing which I addressed in other posts), the only thing that bothers me is that people want to make Biblical rules into secular laws.

If people do, or don't, want to live by the rules of their religion of choice, I don't care. But when they want to force everyone to live by their interpretation of their religious rules, I have a problem. I don't feel that people should be trying to make laws based on religious belief, and not on valid ethical theory. Like I've said, there are things that are considered almost universally ethically wrong (murder, rape, theft), and which should always be illegal.

But there are other things called "sin" in the Bible which I don't feel are wrong (being a disobedient child, male homosexual sex, worshiping other deities, etc.). I don't think that they harm anyone, though some might disagree. And they certainly don't harm anyone but the person(s) doing them, so I don't feel they are bad for society.
 
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Maren

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Let's see.

Christ said the greatest commandment is to love God.
This is also the first commandment of the old testament.

I think anyone who calls theirself a Christiaqn has to accept this is a given. It certainly does not harm anyone to love God. It does tremendous harm not to.

Unless you are claiming it is because of some punishment after this life (for which you can give no evidence), I can't see where it does tremendous harm not to. And an argument could be mad that belief in God has done harm.

The second greatest commandment, in the old testatment, goes hand in hand with the first, and I think could fairly be called a part of the first.

It is the commandment not to make idols or worship idols.

Now, in history, people have violated this. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson, certain kings have claimed to be gods. The results were horrendous each and every time.

False, the results have not been horrendous every time. Look at the society of the ancient Greeks, which was so far advanced compared to the rest of the world that much of our current society is still based on the ideas and morals of that culture. Same with the Romans, though it can be argued there were individual emperors that caused great pain.

And Biblical governments have no better a human rights record than those based on religions you believe are false -- a large part of the Old Testament is devoted to the problem of having a righteous religious government. It failed every single time it was tried.

In fact, religious governments have such a bad reputation it led the founders of this country to create a secular government.

According to Christ, the second commandment is to "love your neighbor as yourself."

Well, lets see. Treating other people with the same love and respect that you want them to treat you with - how is that tearing up society?

How is not doing that helping society?

This is a nice idea, now if only Christians would follow it as you explain it. A simple example, I seem to recall that you oppose gay marriage. Yet this is an example of Christians not loving their neighbors. There are plenty of other examples of Christians attempting to impose their religion on people who believe differently.

In the old testament, it says, don't use the Lord's name in vain. In other words, don't say, "God wants this," if God didn't say it first. Don't "use God's name and title and authority" for your own personal benefit or profit.

I think we can all see how that is a good thing.

Sorry, I can't see that. And if it really is a good thing, does that mean we should enforce it like the Muslim nations do? It is often as not the people who claim to be Christian that I see take the Lord's name in vain as non-Christians.

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Now, the sabbath is a day when you rest from your work, and you spend time in fellowship with God and your loved ones.

Doesn't have to be a Saturday, doesn't have to be a Sunday. All it is supposed to be is a time when you stop, take a break, rest, remember God and love. Doesn't even have to be a church. Adam didn't have one.

And yet, this is another Christians tend not to follow. Not unless you count the Sabbath as the one or two hours you go to church each week. And if you read the Bible, this is clearly not what God meant at all -- he literally talked of a day where everything was aimed at glorifying God (which is why healing on the Sabbath was a good thing, since it glorified God, even though it was technically a violation of the law).

Honor your father and mother.

While in most instances I think children should be respectful of their parents, do parents who abuse their children deserve honor?

"Live your life in a way that will cause others to think well of your parents."
That's what it REALLY means.

Besides not seeing anything that remotely looks like this in the Bible, why should a child of parents who abused them try to make others think well of his/her parents. It is this type of attitude that keeps children in abusive homes.

I have a friend whose mother was abusive. The father had a job that caused him to travel a great deal -- and it appears much of that was so that he wouldn't have to be around his abusive wife. Yet, because the children were told to honor their parents the mother was a highly respected member in their Baptist church. Any allegations of abuse that surfaced were not believed and the children were told they should honor their parents.

Unfortunately, my friends experience is not exclusive to her, I've heard too many other similar stories through the years.

Don't murder.
Don't commit adultery.
Don't steal.
Don't give false testimony about your neighbor.
Don't get jealous over your neighbor's property!
Don't get jealous over your neighbor's wife!

Yes sir, those sure are terrible ideas!

Come on people!

Yet these are wrong by any moral standard, they do not need to be classified as "sin" for people to understand they are wrong.

Which of these 10 do you REALLY think is so bad?

Which of these are you willing to walk up to your parents or teachers or ministers and say, "You know. I really, really dislike this rule. Don't you agree I should be allowed to break it?"

I have trouble understanding this paragraph. Most Christians I know follow their own conscience and don't ask permission. They may debate an issue with their minister or teacher to show them why they believe they are wrong but ultimately they will just find a church more in line with their views. Or, if extreme enough, they'll just give up on their believe altogether and just never go back to church.

And this to me is the biggest problem with "sin", there is no universal agreement as to what sin is. For example, some will claim that killing is wrong, as the 10 Commandments appears to say. But then the current Iraq war with the thousands of deaths it has caused are considered justified by many Christians. There are Christians that justify murder of gays or abortionists. There are Christians that justify homosexual acts. There are Christians that justify not loving their neighbor or not following the Golden Rule. In the end, sin is meaningless because if people decide "sin" based on their own biases.
 
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Maren

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So, you think that we should attack any country, right now, that is reportedly carrying out terrible acts against its own citizens. Even if we were not 100% certain these rumors are true?

Remember, the world did not know for a fact what Hitler was doing until he attacked other countries. Until then, there were a few rumors, but the world was seriously divided on whether the rumors were true or not.

Not what I was stating, I was responding to another person's claim that Christians (particularly in the area) responded to Hitler's atrocities and stopped them. As you have agreed, that claim is false, most Christians could not believe the claims against Hitler were true. Not to mention, Germany was overwhelmingly Christian yet most supported Hitler, very few opposed him.

When I showed the error of the persons statement, he responded particularly to the idea about "Christian countries", which is why I emphasized that portion in the part you originally responded to.
 
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Merlin

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Cmon. Its the new millenium. Can't we just let go of quaint things like guilt and sin? What good has such things really done for you, me, or anyone else anyways?

It's a relationship with God issue.
The millinium doesn't matter.
 
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