Is sin really so bad?

[morningstar2651]

Ah, situational ethics. The good thing about situational ethics is that you can rationalize any bad behavior.

Seemed to work pretty well for the Germans in the late 30's-45.

It wasn't situational ethics that resulted in those atrocities -- it was unchallenged obedience to authority.

 

[JGL53]

It wasn't situational ethics that resulted in those atrocities -- it was unchallenged obedience to authority.

That is the problem. Hitler was far from a situational ethicist. He believed his view of ethics was correct and that all people should abide by them - IOW, he was an authoritarian.

Also, being a theist and not an atheist didn't seem to help Hitler discern apparent evil from good, any more than it did christian witch burners, the KKK, and all other violence and horror based in religious belief, both extant and in the entire history of the human race.

(And mentioning that communists are atheists doesn't somehow cancel out the above.)

 

[gwenmead]

Sin is a religious concept of wrongdoing. I suppose it will be useful so long as it prevents religious individuals from harming their fellow human beings. For the rest of us, the idea of "sin" is not strictly necessary to shape our morality.

 

[flicka]

I doubt there are two people on the planet who can agree 100% on what is or isn't a "sin".

 

[IzzyPop]

None of these say anything about encouraging rape.

Judges 21:10-24 talks about the destruction of Jabeshgilead and killing everyone except the virgin women. Who they got to take as wives. But the problem was that there were not enough women to go around to all the conquering men. So they asked what to do and were told to hide out near the town of Shiloh and kidnap the women when they went out to the fields.

Now it doesn't explicitly state rape, but really, just picture what happens when someone kills your entire family and then takes you for a 'wife'.


Numbers 31:7-18 talks about the destruction of the Midianites and killing of every male and woman that 'hath known man by lying with him.' And Moses tells them 'But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.' That last part just screams rape. And Moses told them to do this. Nice, huh?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 then codifies the above examples and says that this is how to make war. Kill all the men and mothers, but keep the virgins around and 'enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.'

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
God actually facilitates this rape. As a punishment for the man. Wow. The rest is even worse, but doesn't really deal with rape, just child murder.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 explains how if you see a girl that takes your fancy amongst the captives, you have to humiliate her before you can rape her. And then once you tire of her you can chuck her out the door with nothing.



Zechariah 14:1-2
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

I made the important bit stand out a bit just in case you might miss it. Sounds like encouraging rape to me.

 

[Steezie]

Cmon. Its the new millenium. Can't we just let go of quaint things like guilt and sin? What good has such things really done for you, me, or anyone else anyways?

"Half the fun of asking forgiveness, is having a reason to ask"

 

[MikeMcK]

Now it doesn't explicitly state rape, but really, just picture what happens when someone kills your entire family and then takes you for a 'wife'.

OK. So then how does the fact that these cultures did this equate to God encouraging it?

Numbers 31:7-18 talks about the destruction of the Midianites and killing of every male and woman that 'hath known man by lying with him.' And Moses tells them 'But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.' That last part just screams rape. And Moses told them to do this. Nice, huh?

Where's the part about rape?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 then codifies the above examples and says that this is how to make war. Kill all the men and mothers, but keep the virgins around and 'enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.'

But we're talking specifically about rape, remember?

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
God actually facilitates this rape. As a punishment for the man. Wow. The rest is even worse, but doesn't really deal with rape, just child murder.

This is a prophecy of future punishment. Not only does it not say anything about rape, not only does it not say anything encouraging rape, it hasn't even happened yet!

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 explains how if you see a girl that takes your fancy amongst the captives, you have to humiliate her before you can rape her. And then once you tire of her you can chuck her out the door with nothing.

OK. Let's look at what the passage actually says:

10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

So here, not only does it not say what you claimed, but says that the man is taking her for his wife.

Zechariah 14:1-2
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Again, this is a prophecy, not a command or an encouragement to rape.

I made the important bit stand out a bit just in case you might miss it. Sounds like encouraging rape to me.

No. It is a prophecy, not an encouragement of rape.

 

[IzzyPop]

OK. So then how does the fact that these cultures did this equate to God encouraging it?



Where's the part about rape?



But we're talking specifically about rape, remember?



This is a prophecy of future punishment. Not only does it not say anything about rape, not only does it not say anything encouraging rape, it hasn't even happened yet!



OK. Let's look at what the passage actually says:



So here, not only does it not say what you claimed, but says that the man is taking her for his wife.



Again, this is a prophecy, not a command or an encouragement to rape.



No. It is a prophecy, not an encouragement of rape.

Really, dude? The cognitive dissonance is amazing here. On one hand the bible says homosexuality is bad and you hold it up and us it as a reason to condemn it. Here it tells people that raping your enemies' virgins is hunkey-dorey and that is okay because it is a 'cultural thing'.

 

[Maren]

I agree and I believe that God will honor them for that.

I think you missed the sarcasm. Few Christians opposed Hitler for these reasons, and those that did were often branded as heretics prior to WWII. The Catholic Church did not condemn Hitler or the Nazis at the time, they only have since WWII. For that matter, there are stories of the current pope having been a Nazi. Whether or not he believed in Hitler's ideas, he was a member of the Hitler youth and served in the military.

No Christian country directly opposed Hitler until that country (or a country they had a defense treaty with) were attacked. America stayed out of the war until we were attacked by a German ally, despite the fact stories of what was happening to the Jews had been reported in the US. Based on those reports, Jewish leaders met with Roosevelt to ask him to declare war.

And last, the Christian countries of Germany and Austria are the ones who allowed Hitler's policies. Italy became an ally of Germany. Finland was considered an Axis country until they signed a treaty with the Allies in September 1944. Spain, Switzerland, Portugal and Sweden (and the smaller countries of Andorra, Lichtenstein and Monaco) remained officially neutral.

The record of Christians in regards to the Nazis is not a great one.

 

[TexasSky]

Okay, so Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 20:10-14, 2 Samuel 12:11-14, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, and Zechariah 14:1-2, are not part of the Bible? Do I just have a bad copy or did God not grant me the 'real' one since I'm an unbeliever and all?

This entire thing has been answered, in depth, in another thread. The bottom line is, God did not condone rape. The fact that the men committed rape did not mean they had God's blessing to do so, and in fact, if you read the parts IN CONTEXT you will see they were punished for doing so.

 

[TexasSky]

As to "getting rid of sin."

I would love to get rid of sin. Sin separates us from God.

However - mankind is, by nature, selfish and mean.

I say that, not because the bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but because I've lived in the world a long long time.

I've lived long enough to meet survivors of the Nazi Concentration Camps, and to meet young people who think these concentration camps never existed.

I've lived long enough to see September 11th, Virginia Tech, Columbine High School, the rape of young children in a secluded religious community - by a man who wanted to "teach them a lesson", to see people "go postal", to bury a friend whose husband murdered her, to bury a 13 year old girl whose 19 year old boyfriend raped and murdered her, to hold children who were sobbing because the courts of men required that they visit the parent who had raped them because he had a "legal right" to visitation, to hold women who were raped, to hold women who were beaten by people they loved most in the world. I've been robbed, I've been raped.

I've seen the world without this "guilt" you talk about.

The world is a horrible, horrible place without God in it.

And even man, without God, recognizes this.
They call people who think "we should do whatever we want to do without guilt," sociopaths - the most dangerous members of society. Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy all believed in a world without guilt.

When you succeed in getting rid of feeling shame and guilt for murder, theft, adultery, lies and gossip (bearing false wittness against thy neighbor), jealousy to the point that it creates an irrational rage against someone else (covetness) - - - -remember - you can never again scream "they were wrong" if someone murders someone you love, steals something you worked hard to earn, cheats on you when you thought you were in a loving, committed relationship.

You cannot complain about people starving, or children being abused. You cannot protest, for or against abortion, or for or against stoning people who have abortions. After all, its ALL right isn't it?

Its whatever you want to do, guilt free isn't it?

Yes, sir. We want a world without guilt or morales! What a grand idea! Let's go back to being animals that destroy one another just because we want to.

 

[WatersMoon110]

It really depends on the "sin" in question. There are a few things that humans, in this day and age, almost universally believe are wrong:
Theft, Murder, and Rape (and, to some extent, Lying).

Even people who do these acts don't want the act done to them (a thief doesn't want their goods stolen - a murderer doesn't want to be killed - a rapist doesn't want to be raped - and a liar doesn't want others to lie to them).

But there are many things identified as "sin" in the Bible that most people don't really believe are wrong in all situations (should one honor their abusive father and alcoholic mother?). I think that secular society could allow religious people to not do whatever they feel is wrong, and religious people could allow secular society to legalize anything they wish. (Remember people, it counts more to resist a legal, available temptation - rather than trying to make a temptation illegal and unavailable so that one doesn't have to do the work of resisting it!)

 

[morningstar2651]

(Remember people, it counts more to resist a legal, available temptation - rather than trying to make a temptation illegal and unavailable so that one doesn't have to do the work of resisting it!)

I think this point needs repeating. Has anyone read the novel A Clockwork Orange?

 

[WatersMoon110]

I think this point needs repeating. Has anyone read the novel A Clockwork Orange?

Good book, good movie!

 

[IzzyPop]

And great soundtrack!

 

[MikeMcK]

No Christian country directly opposed Hitler until that country (or a country they had a defense treaty with) were attacked.

Actually, Deitrich Bonhoffer was a Christian pastor who led a resistance movement made up of Christians.

He was eventually killed for plotting to kill Hitler.

 

[MikeMcK]

Really, dude? The cognitive dissonance is amazing here.

On one hand the bible says homosexuality is bad and you hold it up and us it as a reason to condemn it. Here it tells people that raping your enemies' virgins is hunkey-dorey and that is okay because it is a 'cultural thing'.

I think you have me confused with somebody else. I never says that at all.

I just pointed out that the verses you cited have nothing to do with rape, several of them are prophecies and not even talking about literal events, and at least one specifies that it's talking about marriage.

 

[Maren]

Actually, Deitrich Bonhoffer was a Christian pastor who led a resistance movement made up of Christians.

He was eventually killed for plotting to kill Hitler.

Wow, you quote only where I said no Christian country opposed Hitler until being attacked and come back with this? Sorry, I don't believe that Deitrich Bonhoffer has ever been a country, so I don't see where that applies to what I was saying.

Strange that you took out the part of my previous post where I said, "Few Christians opposed Hitler", which obviously infers that a minority of Christians (like Deitrich Bonhoffer and the Confessing Church) did. This does not negate the position of the mainstream churches or the fact the current pope was in the Hitler Youth and fought for Germany in the war.

 

[JGG]

Next time somebody robs your house or rapes someone you love, get back to me on that one.

That reminds me, where does the Bible define rape as a sin?

 

[IzzyPop]

I think you have me confused with somebody else. I never says that at all.

I just pointed out that the verses you cited have nothing to do with rape, several of them are prophecies and not even talking about literal events, and at least one specifies that it's talking about marriage.

Really? What part of taking a city by force, killing every person except for the virgin women, and taking those women for your own does not mean rape? Do you honestly believe that a woman who just watched a person kill every person she in her family with the exception of a sister or cousin that has not lain with a man will willingly accept that killer as a husband? That to even take that man as a husband, she must shave her head (which is a form of humiliation, if I am not mistaken) and can then be his wife only until he tires of her?

And as for the prophecies. Those are supposed to come true, right? So just because the rape has not happened yet, but an all powerful being promises that it will happen, makes it okay?

And you accuse atheists of situational ethics...