• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is scripture the highest authority?

Is scripture the highest authority we now have on earth?

  • 1) Yes

    Votes: 39 72.2%
  • 2) No

    Votes: 15 27.8%

  • Total voters
    54

Wolf_Says

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2016
644
323
USA
✟38,012.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
And that is what you hang your purgatory hat on, huh?......you know, I got a bridge in NYC for sale.......

If it is not scriptural (God breathed/inspired) then it is a man made doctrine because it originates with man.

One more time, the Catholic Church did not exist in the 4th century; the Church catholic existed at that time. Now I understand you don't want to take the word of a protestant so why don't you talk with and get the POV from Oriental/Eastern Orthodox and ask them if they were part of the Roman Catholic Church back in the 4th century or any time since.......

The rest is not even worth re-re-re-re-hashing...

Yes the Catholic Church did exist in the 4th century, I think you should do a little bit of history. I actually have talked to Orthodox and they agree that the Catholic Church existed then, but they call it the Catholic Orthodox Church, and split from the Church in 1053 AD with the Great Schism because they refused to accept the papacy and the 3 added words to the Nicene Creed "And the Son".

Where does it say in Scripture that if it is not in scripture, it is man made? You cannot say Sola Scriptura unless you actually can have verses in the Bible to back it up.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,201
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟75,570.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Would you say, in light of this, that such teachings that are peripheral to or even partially deleterious to the Gospel, have the affect of making the Good News less efficacious? Does a general message with these elements included still contain the Gospel?

Such teachings are contrary to the Gospel, as our salvation is freely given to us (that is, we have not and cannot earn it). The teachings of indulgences, penance and purgatory say that there is more to be done in regard to our salvation, that Jesus' death in the cross was only part of what it takes for us to be saved, but that there is more that must be done to ensure our salvation.

Those who rely on such things are relying, at least partially, on their own works to save them. But it is Jesus who saves us and Him alone, we cannot save ourselves, not even a little bit. Without Christ we are lost and He has accomplished our salvation, fully, on the cross. His sacrifice was and is, for all time, sufficient.

Of course, being saved and accepting Jesus' gift of salvation and forgiveness means we are to walk in obedience to Him, remaining in Him and bearing much fruit, but these things are evidence of our salvation and the faith we have in our Lord, they are not what saves us.

And are these issues not a direct outcropping of our views on the authority of scripture? Notice how they even use language like "formation" of the scriptural canon, almost as if the authoritative voice with which Scripture was written didn't already presuppose such authority.

Yes, absolutely. It does come down to how we view the authority of Scripture. Is it God's divinely inspired word, or is it merely the writings of man?

Many people seem to believe that the Bible is simply the product of the Church, forgetting that the true Author is God Himself. Yes, He worked through people to write it and form it, but He is the One Who has given us His word, not mankind.

As such, Scripture is entirely authoritative, as it is God's very words to us, by which we may know Him and discern (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) truth from lies, right from wrong.

I'm not saying traditions and church teachings aren't valuable, or that they don't have a place in the church, but the word of God is above any and every tradition and teaching of mankind, and so church tradition and teaching must bow to the authority of Scripture. When particular traditions and teachings are contrary to the word of God, they must be rejected.
 
Upvote 0

Wolf_Says

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2016
644
323
USA
✟38,012.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I understand Romans 14 to be instructing us not to not get caught up differences over superficial things, like what we eat or drink, and that we are to show consideration for other Christians who have different convictions about these things, so that we do not hinder their faith.

The unScriptural doctrines of purgatory, penance and indulgences, however, are not superficial in the slightest. They actually call into question the sufficiency and adequacy of Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross for our sins.

I'm not trying to be divisive, I am actually truly and deeply concerned by such teachings. Teachings that suggest Christ's death only grants partial forgiveness, and the rest is up to us. This is not the Gospel.

Christ's death was and is enough. His blood covers all sins, and we cannot add to that or improve upon it, nor do we deserve His forgiveness and mercy, and we have done and can do nothing to earn it.

The Spin! You my friend should work at CNN!

So let me get this straight, you think that because purgatory exists (and I have stated verses to prove it, whether you wish to see that or not.) then Jesus' death was less than?

I am sorry, but the Catholic Church does not teach that Jesus' death is less than. You seem to be confused on the topic so let me enlighten you.

Even though Jesus died for our sins, we still sin as human beings. We still turn our backs on God, and do things against His commands. We sin! That is the nature we are born with. Jesus himself KNEW this, which is why, AFTER HIS DEATH, in John 20:21-23 He tells his apostles to go and forgive sins. Why would Jesus give this power to them?

Because even though the Father forgives us for our sins, we need to take responsibility for them still. We still need to ask for forgiveness, through confession, and then penance to essentially make up for our sins. This is the same as punishing your child when he did something bad, despite the fact that you already forgave him, because without the punishment he would never learn! Confession and penance is for us to learn and do our best to not sin in the same way again!

God's eyes are too pure for our souls when we die, which is why purgatory exists. To make our souls pure. We are saved once we reach purgatory, because there is only heaven after that. Jesus' death opened up the gates of heaven, allowing us to finally enter into paradise. But only the pure reach heaven, and when we die we will undoubtedly have some sins on our soul, and purgatory is were we go to have them cleaned.
 
Upvote 0

Wolf_Says

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2016
644
323
USA
✟38,012.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
That's what you believe and you're welcome to it. There were as many heresies then as there are now. Sola scriptura!

You mean like the heresy that you just stated, Sola scriptura? Because that is the big one of today. Which is funny, because even Peter says in 2 Peter 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation. Yet that is exactly what Sola scriptura is. Ones own interpretations, throwing away the authority as the sole interpreter of the scriptures, and has lead to the 40,000 denominations we see in the world today.

Heck, protestants can't even argue about scripture, because of sola scriptura! If somebody claims to be lead by the Holy Spirit in reading scripture, who are they to say no? They have no authority to say that somebody is wrong!
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,201
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟75,570.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
The Spin! You my friend should work at CNN!

So let me get this straight, you think that because purgatory exists (and I have stated verses to prove it, whether you wish to see that or not.) then Jesus' death was less than?

There is no Scriptural basis for purgatory. Jesus never taught of such a place, and neither did the disciples or Paul. Purgatory is a teaching and doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am sorry, but the Catholic Church does not teach that Jesus' death is less than. You seem to be confused on the topic so let me enlighten you.

Even though Jesus died for our sins, we still sin as human beings. We still turn our backs on God, and do things against His commands. We sin! That is the nature we are born with. Jesus himself KNEW this, which is why, AFTER HIS DEATH, in John 20:21-23 He tells his apostles to go and forgive sins. Why would Jesus give this power to them?

So who is it that actually forgives sin? Where does the forgiveness for sin truly come from? From man, or from God?

Because even though the Father forgives us for our sins, we need to take responsibility for them still. We still need to ask for forgiveness, through confession, and then penance to essentially make up for our sins.

How can we possibly "make up for our sins"? This sounds like the Old Testament law and sacrificial system to me. As people saved by Christ, we are no longer under the Law, and it is Christ who saves us, not our own efforts.

Yes, we acknowledge and take responsibility for our sins, and we do this when we repent and seek forgiveness from the only One Who can save us, Jesus Christ. We are lost in our sins without Him, no matter what we do, and nothing we can do adds to His work on the cross for our salvation.

And yes, sometimes we will face dire consequences here in this life for our sins, but that is not the same as Church imposed teaching and instruction that we must do something to make ourselves right with God. The only thing we can do is accept by faith His forgiveness and salvation, turning from our sins and repenting. No additional works will purify us or save us, believing such things is to put us back under the Law.

This is the same as punishing your child when he did something bad, despite the fact that you already forgave him, because without the punishment he would never learn! Confession and penance is for us to learn and do our best to not sin in the same way again!

Again, the natural consequences that we must at times face in this life as a result of sin, are indeed often God's discipline of us. Penance is entirely different however, as penance is done to atone for our sins. This is completely unnecessary and pointless, because Christ has already atoned for all of us, once for all time, and His sacrifice and atonement are absolutely sufficient for us. We have been made right with God through Jesus Christ, not by anything we have done or will do.

God's eyes are too pure for our souls when we die, which is why purgatory exists. To make our souls pure. We are saved once we reach purgatory, because there is only heaven after that. Jesus' death opened up the gates of heaven, allowing us to finally enter into paradise. But only the pure reach heaven, and when we die we will undoubtedly have some sins on our soul, and purgatory is were we go to have them cleaned.


Please provide Scripture that clearly supports these claims. Where in Scripture does it say that our souls must go to a place where they will be purified? Or that even after calling upon the name of Jesus to be saved, trusting in His forgiveness, we will still die with "sins on our soul" and that we need to go to purgatory to "have them cleaned"?

Is Christ's work on the cross, His death and resurrection sufficient or isn't it? Where in Scripture is it taught that more must be done to purify our souls? Where is this doctrine of purgatory found in the Bible?
 
  • Like
Reactions: civilwarbuff
Upvote 0

Wolf_Says

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2016
644
323
USA
✟38,012.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
There is no Scriptural basis for purgatory. Jesus never taught of such a place, and neither did the disciples or Paul. Purgatory is a teaching and doctrine of the Catholic Church.



So who is it that actually forgives sin? Where does the forgiveness for sin truly come from? From man, or from God?



How can we possibly "make up for our sins"? This sounds like the Old Testament law and sacrificial system to me. As people saved by Christ, we are no longer under the Law, and it is Christ who saves us, not our own efforts.

Yes, we acknowledge and take responsibility for our sins, and we do this when we repent and seek forgiveness from the only One Who can save us, Jesus Christ. We are lost in our sins without Him, no matter what we do, and nothing we can do adds to His work on the cross for our salvation.

And yes, sometimes we will face dire consequences here in this life for our sins, but that is not the same as Church imposed teaching and instruction that we must do something to make ourselves right with God. The only thing we can do is accept by faith His forgiveness and salvation, turning from our sins and repenting. No additional works will purify us or save us, believing such things is to put us back under the Law.



Again, the natural consequences that we must at times face in this life as a result of sin, are indeed often God's discipline of us. Penance is entirely different however, as penance is done to atone for our sins. This is completely unnecessary and pointless, because Christ has already atoned for all of us, once for all time, and His sacrifice and atonement are absolutely sufficient for us. We have been made right with God through Jesus Christ, not by anything we have done or will do.



Please provide Scripture that clearly supports these claims. Where in Scripture does it say that our souls must go to a place where they will be purified? Or that even after calling upon the name of Jesus to be saved, trusting in His forgiveness, we will still die with "sins on our soul" and that we need to go to purgatory to "have them cleaned"?

Is Christ's work on the cross, His death and resurrection sufficient or isn't it? Where in Scripture is it taught that more must be done to purify our souls? Where is this doctrine of purgatory found in the Bible?

As I stated, I already provided the scripture at #309 and #312. You are very confused on the matter.

When you "ask God for forgiveness" how do you know that you are forgiven? Did God say to your ear "I forgive you"? By going through the channels that Jesus laid down (aka His apostles and through apostolic teaching) we know that we are forgiven, and one of the things I hear most from people going to confession for the first time, they feel a huge weight lifted off their shoulders.

Jesus also gave his apostles the POWER TO DENY FORGIVENESS! That is a scary thought! This means that, even though Jesus died for our sins, He also gave his apostles (who then gave it apostolicly through laying of the hands) the power to retain sins, and He said those sins would be retained in heaven!

Jesus did teach of such a place, and he taught is parables when it came to Purgatory. Just as how the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, neither is the word purgatory. Yet we know that God is a Trinity!

As I explained, penance is part of the punishment to help us learn to not commit the same sin again. Is it really that hard to understand?
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,201
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟75,570.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
As I stated, I already provided the scripture at #309 and #312. You are very confused on the matter.

I am not "confused" in the slightest. I know full well what penance is, and it is not Biblical.

When you "ask God for forgiveness" how do you know that you are forgiven? Did God say to your ear "I forgive you"?

I know I am forgiven because God's word tells me I am. And I trust the Lord and His word.

By going through the channels that Jesus laid down (aka His apostles and through apostolic teaching) we know that we are forgiven, and one of the things I hear most from people going to confession for the first time, they feel a huge weight lifted off their shoulders.

Not that it's all about feelings, but I have that assurance when I go directly to God to confess my sins. Thanks to Jesus we now have the opportunity and ability to approach God ourselves, speaking to him personally, repenting and asking for forgiveness.

Jesus also gave his apostles the POWER TO DENY FORGIVENESS! That is a scary thought! This means that, even though Jesus died for our sins, He also gave his apostles (who then gave it apostolicly through laying of the hands) the power to retain sins, and He said those sins would be retained in heaven!

Yes, however all power and glory on earth and in heaven belongs to God alone. Any and all authority the disciples had, they were given by God, it was not their own.

Jesus did teach of such a place, and he taught is parables when it came to Purgatory. Just as how the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, neither is the word purgatory. Yet we know that God is a Trinity!

Which teachings and parables of Jesus speak of a place where our souls must go after death to be purified?

Is the sacrifice of Christ on the cross sufficient or isn't it? Is it complete and finished, or must more be added to it?

As I explained, penance is part of the punishment to help us learn to not commit the same sin again. Is it really that hard to understand?

Penance is a Church doctrine that teaches that Christians must do certain things (at the direction of a Priest or other church leader) to make full atonement for their sins before God.

Christ has already done that on the cross. We cannot and do, nor can we add, anything to Christ's already complete sacrifice, which covers our sins and makes full atonement for them. Our works and any punishment meted out by church leaders, accomplishes nothing in regard to our salvation. We cannot save or sanctify ourselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: civilwarbuff
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
How do you know Ignatius got it right? What do you have to compare it to, other tradition which may or may not been repeated correctly? Scripture must not contradict scripture, there for we know it is true.

BTW, still waiting on #344.....

You are the one contradicting scripture. The words of the New Testament and the teachings of the early Church are united in Truth.

Even Martin Luther understood this:


Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as thesign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”

Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
That's what you believe and you're welcome to it. There were as many heresies then as there are now. Sola scriptura!

You are the one rejecting scripture.

Not even Martin Luther accepts your modern heresy:


Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as thesign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”

Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The Gospel is contained in God's inspired word, the Bible.

Any different or opposing Gospel is not of God.

I agree.

However, it is possible for people to interpret God's word incorrectly.

How do you we know the truth when we disagree about the meaning of God's word?

Matt 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
 
Upvote 0

Wolf_Says

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2016
644
323
USA
✟38,012.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I am not "confused" in the slightest. I know full well what penance is, and it is not Biblical.



I know I am forgiven because God's word tells me I am. And I trust the Lord and His word.



Not that it's all about feelings, but I have that assurance when I go directly to God to confess my sins. Thanks to Jesus we now have the opportunity and ability to approach God ourselves, speaking to him personally, repenting and asking for forgiveness.



Yes, however all power and glory on earth and in heaven belongs to God alone. Any and all authority the disciples had, they were given by God, it was not their own.



Which teachings and parables of Jesus speak of a place where our souls must go after death to be purified?

Is the sacrifice of Christ on the cross sufficient or isn't it? Is it complete and finished, or must more be added to it?



Penance is a Church doctrine that teaches that Christians must do certain things (at the direction of a Priest or other church leader) to make full atonement for their sins before God.

Christ has already done that on the cross. We cannot and do, nor can we add, anything to Christ's already complete sacrifice, which covers our sins and makes full atonement for them. Our works and any punishment meted out by church leaders, accomplishes nothing in regard to our salvation. We cannot save or sanctify ourselves.

So you deny the teachings of Jesus then? Basically that is what you are telling me.

Also you are asking a a statement that is twisted so that no matter my answer, you feel like you have won.

I have already provided the scripture verses, in #309 and #312. I gave you the opportunity to go and and read them. I will not waste my time to post them again simply because you cannot go back.

Yes the power to forgive sins, baptize, and all of that was given by Jesus to the apostles. Do you not think that this was for a reason? If Jesus gave these people the power to forgive sins, and then through laying of the hands those people pass that power on, I am going to go to those people to have my sins forgiven, because that is what Jesus taught. Otherwise, there would have been no reason to give that power to the apostles.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,201
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟75,570.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
So you deny the teachings of Jesus then? Basically that is what you are telling me.

I have said NO such thing. Jesus never taught about a place where our souls go to be purified of sin after death.

Also you are asking a a statement that is twisted so that no matter my answer, you feel like you have won.

I am not playing games here, this is gravely serious to me. It's not about feeling like I have "won." I will not add to or take away from the Gospel and saving work of Christ on the cross, THAT is what this is about.

I have already provided the scripture verses, in #309 and #312. I gave you the opportunity to go and and read them. I will not waste my time to post them again simply because you cannot go back.

I read the verses you quoted, the problem is they are not teachings about purgatory. Jesus never taught of such a place.

Yes the power to forgive sins, baptize, and all of that was given by Jesus to the apostles. Do you not think that this was for a reason? If Jesus gave these people the power to forgive sins, and then through laying of the hands those people pass that power on, I am going to go to those people to have my sins forgiven, because that is what Jesus taught. Otherwise, there would have been no reason to give that power to the apostles.

The problem with going to men (or women) to have your sins forgiven is that not all Christians are ever going to agree as to has such authority.

The Bible clearly tells us we can approach God directly. Jesus' death and resurrection made this possible. Before the sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation that was made by Jesus, people had to go through the Levitical priesthood to have their sins forgiven. We no longer live under the system of the Law in this way.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,201
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟75,570.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I agree.

However, it is possible for people to interpret God's word incorrectly.

How do you we know the truth when we disagree about the meaning of God's word?

Matt 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

There are definitely different interpretations abounding, which is why we have to seek God in all things, (and He has given us His word for a reason). Thankfully God truly knows each and every heart, and He alone will judge us in regard to where we spend eternity.
 
Upvote 0

Wolf_Says

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2016
644
323
USA
✟38,012.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I have said NO such thing. Jesus never taught about a place where our souls go to be purified of sin after death.

I am not playing games here, this is gravely serious to me. It's not about feeling like I have "won." I will not add to or take away from the Gospel and saving work of Christ on the cross, THAT is what this is about.

I read the verses you quoted, the problem is they are not teachings about purgatory. Jesus never taught of such a place.

The problem with going to men (or women) to have your sins forgiven is that not all Christians are ever going to agree as to has such authority.

The Bible clearly tells us we can approach God directly. Jesus' death and resurrection made this possible. Before the sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation that was made by Jesus, people had to go through the Levitical priesthood to have their sins forgiven. We no longer live under the system of the Law in this way.

If you are so knowledgeable then please, what is Jesus talking about in his Prison parable in Matthew 5:25-26? Or what is this fire that our works are judged by in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15? Or how about Isaiah 4:4? Matthew 5:22? or 1 Peter 3:19-20? If purgatory were truly not real, explain 2 Corinthians 5:10. How about Philippians 2:10-11? Surely no soul in hell will bow to Jesus, because that is the realm of the devil who hates Jesus and God. So what is "under the earth" that souls will bow to Jesus if not purgatory?

Revelations 5:3 and 13 also talk about under the earth and these praised Jesus.

Since you claim to be more knowledgeable than even some of the most renowned minds in Christianity such as St Ambrose, St Francis De Sales, and St Jerome who claimed that these passages were proof of purgatory, then what are these passages talking about?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thursday
Upvote 0

Hawkiz

Newbie
Dec 3, 2013
353
119
✟24,036.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
There is no Scriptural basis for purgatory. Jesus never taught of such a place, and neither did the disciples or Paul. Purgatory is a teaching and doctrine of the Catholic Church.



So who is it that actually forgives sin? Where does the forgiveness for sin truly come from? From man, or from God?



How can we possibly "make up for our sins"? This sounds like the Old Testament law and sacrificial system to me. As people saved by Christ, we are no longer under the Law, and it is Christ who saves us, not our own efforts.

Yes, we acknowledge and take responsibility for our sins, and we do this when we repent and seek forgiveness from the only One Who can save us, Jesus Christ. We are lost in our sins without Him, no matter what we do, and nothing we can do adds to His work on the cross for our salvation.

And yes, sometimes we will face dire consequences here in this life for our sins, but that is not the same as Church imposed teaching and instruction that we must do something to make ourselves right with God. The only thing we can do is accept by faith His forgiveness and salvation, turning from our sins and repenting. No additional works will purify us or save us, believing such things is to put us back under the Law.



Again, the natural consequences that we must at times face in this life as a result of sin, are indeed often God's discipline of us. Penance is entirely different however, as penance is done to atone for our sins. This is completely unnecessary and pointless, because Christ has already atoned for all of us, once for all time, and His sacrifice and atonement are absolutely sufficient for us. We have been made right with God through Jesus Christ, not by anything we have done or will do.



Please provide Scripture that clearly supports these claims. Where in Scripture does it say that our souls must go to a place where they will be purified? Or that even after calling upon the name of Jesus to be saved, trusting in His forgiveness, we will still die with "sins on our soul" and that we need to go to purgatory to "have them cleaned"?

Is Christ's work on the cross, His death and resurrection sufficient or isn't it? Where in Scripture is it taught that more must be done to purify our souls? Where is this doctrine of purgatory found in the Bible?

The process of purgation is spelled out in 1 Cor. 3:11-15. The verses speak of God's judgement after death.

Clearly forgiveness of sins only comes from God, yet just as clearly, Jesus gave this gift to His apostles: John 20:21-23. This did not die with the physical death of the apostles, as shown in Acts 1, where the office that Judas held was refilled. No sins are forgiven without Christ.

Atonement for our sins, known as penance, is also taught in the New Testament in multiple places. You correctly state that Christ has paid the penalty, and our sins have been atoned for and it is not our personal atonement that 'makes up for' our sins, but it is the uniting of our shortcomings (sins) with Christ that allows for our sins to be paid for as it were by Christ. This can be seen in Hebrews 12:5-13. Our personal penance accomplishes exactly this unity with Christ. You yourself recognize this when you state above that we must repent and seek forgiveness from God, and when you further state that God sometimes presents us with dire circumstances as a means of discipline. Since Christ founded the Church, and Christ gave His voice to the Church, (whomever hears you, hears me) it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that, as you put it, the Church imposes teaching and instruction as a means to 'get right' with God. You are partially correct when you say that the only thing we can do is repent and seek forgiveness...but, as the passage in Hebrews tells us, we can, and should also submit to His discipline.

Penance is much like a parent grounding a child for misbehavior: the sin of misbehaving is forgiven, yet the child, in order to better understand that there are consequences for the sin, must undergo punishment and ultimately, must see and turn from (repent) the error. In the New Testament, one example of penance (offered by Jesus, the apostles and St. Paul) is fasting. Fasting is a means of humbling (humiliating) ourselves before The Lord. And this is the heart of what penance is: a humbling of ourselves before God; acknowledging that we are incapable of saving ourselves. We fall at His feet and beg forgiveness. (See Mark 2:18-20; Acts 13:2-3; Acts 14:23; James 4:8-10)

We are also called by St. Paul to view our sufferings as penance, and as a means to unite our personal suffering to Christ: we see this in 2 Cor. 1: our sufferings are our penance, and this is exactly what even allows us to see the great comfort that God provides. Phillipians 3:10 and 4:12 show us the our sufferings draw us closer to Christ. Penance, in Catholic teaching, is voluntary suffering, an act of our free will that is part of our repentance and turning from our sins and towards Christ. It is, as you say above, our accepting of what He has done for us, not an effort to make ourselves justified, but rather our admittance that we can accomplish nothing for salvation unto ourselves and that we are fully willing to submit to His will.

As to your question about Christ's cross, death and Resurrection being sufficient: St. Paul mentions this with both a 'Yes', and a 'Not quite' answer: His suffering, death and Resurrection are easily more than enough on their own. (Multiple entries throughout his writings). But he also says that Christ desires us to unite our own personal sufferings with His through the Church, going so far to say that Christ sufferings were 'lacking'(!) in Col. 1:24. This fits seamlessly with the Churches teachings that penance, as a means of humbly presenting ourselves before God, is a very real way for us to grow in our personal relationship with Christ. St. Paul even tells us to accept this joyfully (as he himself did) in order to 'know' that we are truly submitting to His will.

Penance only = punishment if we fail to view God's discipline as a gift and a means to grow IN Him

Hope that helps

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wolf_Says
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,201
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟75,570.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
The process of purgation is spelled out in 1 Cor. 3:11-15. The verses speak of God's judgement after death.

Clearly forgiveness of sins only comes from God, yet just as clearly, Jesus gave this gift to His apostles: John 20:21-23. This did not die with the physical death of the apostles, as shown in Acts 1, where the office that Judas held was refilled. No sins are forgiven without Christ.

Atonement for our sins, known as penance, is also taught in the New Testament in multiple places. You correctly state that Christ has paid the penalty, and our sins have been atoned for and it is not our personal atonement that 'makes up for' our sins, but it is the uniting of our shortcomings (sins) with Christ that allows for our sins to be paid for as it were by Christ. This can be seen in Hebrews 12:5-13. Our personal penance accomplishes exactly this unity with Christ. You yourself recognize this when you state above that we must repent and seek forgiveness from God, and when you further state that God sometimes presents us with dire circumstances as a means of discipline. Since Christ founded the Church, and Christ gave His voice to the Church, (whomever hears you, hears me) it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that, as you put it, the Church imposes teaching and instruction as a means to 'get right' with God. You are partially correct when you say that the only thing we can do is repent and seek forgiveness...but, as the passage in Hebrews tells us, we can, and should also submit to His discipline.

Penance is much like a parent grounding a child for misbehavior: the sin of misbehaving is forgiven, yet the child, in order to better understand that there are consequences for the sin, must undergo punishment and ultimately, must see and turn from (repent) the error. In the New Testament, one example of penance (offered by Jesus, the apostles and St. Paul) is fasting. Fasting is a means of humbling (humiliating) ourselves before The Lord. And this is the heart of what penance is: a humbling of ourselves before God; acknowledging that we are incapable of saving ourselves. We fall at His feet and beg forgiveness. (See Mark 2:18-20; Acts 13:2-3; Acts 14:23; James 4:8-10)

We are also called by St. Paul to view our sufferings as penance, and as a means to unite our personal suffering to Christ: we see this in 2 Cor. 1: our sufferings are our penance, and this is exactly what even allows us to see the great comfort that God provides. Phillipians 3:10 and 4:12 show us the our sufferings draw us closer to Christ. Penance, in Catholic teaching, is voluntary suffering, an act of our free will that is part of our repentance and turning from our sins and towards Christ. It is, as you say above, our accepting of what He has done for us, not an effort to make ourselves justified, but rather our admittance that we can accomplish nothing for salvation unto ourselves and that we are fully willing to submit to His will.

As to your question about Christ's cross, death and Resurrection being sufficient: St. Paul mentions this with both a 'Yes', and a 'Not quite' answer: His suffering, death and Resurrection are easily more than enough on their own. (Multiple entries throughout his writings). But he also says that Christ desires us to unite our own personal sufferings with His through the Church, going so far to say that Christ sufferings were 'lacking'(!) in Col. 1:24. This fits seamlessly with the Churches teachings that penance, as a means of humbly presenting ourselves before God, is a very real way for us to grow in our personal relationship with Christ. St. Paul even tells us to accept this joyfully (as he himself did) in order to 'know' that we are truly submitting to His will.

Penance only = punishment if we fail to view God's discipline as a gift and a means to grow IN Him

Hope that helps

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

Hi Hawkiz,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your viewpoint. I agree with the basis of all you've written (the need to repent and humble ourselves), however, I am fully convinced I can do this and have done this and will continue to, without a certain set of tasks commanded of me by a Priest.

My repentance and humbling myself before the Lord, seeking His forgiveness, is first and foremost a heart attitude. And God, who sees my heart, knows if I am truly repenting and asking for forgiveness. Doing any kind of penance (Our Father's and Hail Marys for example) does not make us right with God in an of themselves. The desire to seek and serve God comes from within.

Blessings

~Amariselle
 
Upvote 0

civilwarbuff

Constitutionalist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2015
15,873
7,590
Columbus
✟756,257.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
We must be Holy to see God. Are all Christians 100% holy when they die?
If they are in Messiah, yes, they most certainly are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: amariselle
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,201
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟75,570.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
If you are so knowledgeable then please, what is Jesus talking about in his Prison parable in Matthew 5:25-26? Or what is this fire that our works are judged by in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15? Or how about Isaiah 4:4? Matthew 5:22? or 1 Peter 3:19-20? If purgatory were truly not real, explain 2 Corinthians 5:10. How about Philippians 2:10-11? Surely no soul in hell will bow to Jesus, because that is the realm of the devil who hates Jesus and God. So what is "under the earth" that souls will bow to Jesus if not purgatory?

Revelations 5:3 and 13 also talk about under the earth and these praised Jesus.

Since you claim to be more knowledgeable than even some of the most renowned minds in Christianity such as St Ambrose, St Francis De Sales, and St Jerome who claimed that these passages were proof of purgatory, then what are these passages talking about?

Since you have been continuously and intentionally putting words in my mouth and condemning me for things I NEVER ONCE said, I think we're done here.

Once again, I'm not interested in responding to anyone who simply wants to be argumentative and make false claims.

Have a lovely day, and God bless you.

~Amariselle
 
Upvote 0

civilwarbuff

Constitutionalist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2015
15,873
7,590
Columbus
✟756,257.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
I agree.

However, it is possible for people to interpret God's word incorrectly.

How do you we know the truth when we disagree about the meaning of God's word?

Matt 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Wow.....talk about miscontruing scripture......
Matthew 18
Dealing with a Brother who Sins
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and confront him while the two of you are alone. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother.
16 But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two others with you so that ‘every word may be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
17 If, however, he ignores them, tell it to the congregation. If he also ignores the congregation, regard him as an unbeliever and a tax collector.

These verses are about sin, not interpreting scripture.
 
Upvote 0