Is scripture the highest authority?

[Wolf_Says]

Since you have been continuously and intentionally putting words in my mouth and condemning me for things I NEVER ONCE said, I think we're done here.

Once again, I'm not interested in responding to anyone who simply wants to be argumentative and make false claims.

Have a lovely day, and God bless you.

~Amariselle

No I am making logical assumptions based on the things you are saying. Since what I am quoting as being scriptural proof for purgatory is what was used by the doctors of the Church as proof, by saying I do not understand, you are saying that the doctors of the Church also did not understand.

I am not being argumentative, I am treating this as a debate, and making logical assumptions are allowed in debates and I am providing facts and scripture.

 

[Thursday]

There are definitely different interpretations abounding, which is why we have to seek God in all things, (and He has given us His word for a reason). Thankfully God truly knows each and every heart, and He alone will judge us in regard to where we spend eternity.

What did Jesus tell us to when we have a dispute?

 

[Thursday]

If they are in Messiah, yes, they most certainly are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then explain this:

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Thursday]

Wow.....talk about miscontruing scripture......
Matthew 18
Dealing with a Brother who Sins
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and confront him while the two of you are alone. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother.
16 But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two others with you so that ‘every word may be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
17 If, however, he ignores them, tell it to the congregation. If he also ignores the congregation, regard him as an unbeliever and a tax collector.

These verses are about sin, not interpreting scripture.

These verses are also about the authority of the Church. The Church is the final authority while we are on earth, according to Jesus.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Then explain this:

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church because he had heard of dissension and division amongst them:
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
1Co 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ."
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.
1Co 1:16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Not because he desired to introduce the foreign and alien concept of purgatory. Read 1 Cor in its' entirety and in context; it makes a world of difference.
Maybe you should change your name to Mr. Fantastic; Ben Grimm nicknamed him "Stretch".......

 

[civilwarbuff]

These verses are also about the authority of the Church. The Church is the final authority while we are on earth, according to Jesus.

You tried to pass it off as just about interpreting scripture and I showed that was not the message conveyed.....your welcome.

 

[Thursday]

Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church because he had heard of dissension and division amongst them:
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
1Co 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ."
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.
1Co 1:16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Not because he desired to introduce the foreign and alien concept of purgatory. Read 1 Cor in its' entirety and in context; it makes a world of difference.
Maybe you should change your name to Mr. Fantastic; Ben Grimm nicknamed him "Stretch".......

Your post is completely irrelevant to the passage in question. I guess you can't respond.

 

[Thursday]

You tried to pass it off as just about interpreting scripture and I showed that was not the message conveyed.....your welcome.

It is about the ultimate authority for settling disputes among Christians. The disputes could be about anything, including the interpretation of scripture.

You are in denial, again.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Your post is completely irrelevant to the passage in question. I guess you can't respond.

You take your few verses out of context because you don't understand Paul's purpose in writing to the church.....and it is not to introduce purgatory as it seems you suppose.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Just curious, is denying the Catholic teaching of scripture a mortal or venial sin?
It would explain a lot to me....

 

[Thursday]

You take your few verses out of context because you don't understand Paul's purpose in writing to the church.....and it is not to introduce purgatory as it seems you suppose.

Paul was not introducing purgatory, he was referring to it.

Prayer for the dead was a common Jewish practice at the time. Even baptism for the dead.

Why?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Prayer for the dead was a common Jewish practice at the time. Even baptism for the dead.

Why?

Slide that strawman in there......

Paul was not introducing purgatory, he was referring to it.

Then where was it introduced?

 

[Hawkiz]

Hi Hawkiz,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your viewpoint. I agree with the basis of all you've written (the need to repent and humble ourselves), however, I am fully convinced I can do this and have done this and will continue to, without a certain set of tasks commanded of me by a Priest.

My repentance and humbling myself before the Lord, seeking His forgiveness, is first and foremost a heart attitude. And God, who sees my heart, knows if I am truly repenting and asking for forgiveness. Doing any kind of penance (Our Father's and Hail Marys for example) does not make us right with God in an of themselves. The desire to seek and serve God comes from within.

Blessings

~Amariselle

The Catholic Church would not disagree with you in principle: we can, do, and should change our hearts because we know that is what God desires for us. Catholics in fact do this without a certain set of tasks 'commanded' of us by a priest' every time we worship.
The question then becomes: why would we want to do this alone, when Christ so clearly established His Church to provide us with aid? Jesus did not create a 'Lone-Ranger' style of Church. In John's Gospel, we see that Jesus gave the gift of forgiveness (and retention) to His disciples. There is no reason within Scripture to assume that this gift died with them, but there are reasons to conclude that it remains a gift of the Church throughout the ages.
In 1 John, we are told of 'sins that lead to death'. The Catholic Church calls these 'mortal' sins. Even within these sins, the Catholic Church would allow the 'wiggle room' that you seem to desire, and in rare circumstances would grant that these sins, which are serious in nature, done with free will, and committed with full knowledge that they will sever our relationship with Christ, that even these can be forgiven without a priest...however, these circumstances are rare and not ever to be considered the norm. As others have properly explained, confession to a priest is an earthly means of conveying Christ's forgiveness to us. While the role of the priest is to be the voice of Christ, it is important to note that the priest is not Christ - in that it is not the priest who ultimately grants forgiveness, but Christ and Christ alone.

Can we agree that sometimes repentance from sin demands that atonement be made to those whom our sin may have wronged? (We can re-use the example that Thursday laid out within this thread of stealing, or I am open to another example). Can we steal and be forgiven? Answer: YES. Are we repentant if we do not wish to return that which we have stolen? Answer: Highly doubtful at best. Can a priest help us to see that we should, if our hearts are truly repentant, return that which we have wrongfully taken? Answer: Yes. Is a priest called to be a spiritual leader? Yes. Would a priest be remiss if he did not hold us accountable to our sins? Yes. I can keep going, but let's see if we can get this far without too much push back before going further.

You are also correct in stating that performing any penance is not a means of much of anything at all in and of itself. The Catholic Church would agree with you on that point as well...but would diverge from your line of thinking when coupled with Scriptures and the understanding that humility demands surrender and obedience, and it is in that humility that we we should desire to show our loving Father that we would make things 'right' with Him if it were within our power; and knowing that it is through His power, and the penalty paid for by His Son, that we even have the opportunity to be humble before Him.

Back to work!
Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[Thursday]

Slide that strawman in there......

Then where was it introduced?

As I just posted, it is part of the Jewish faith.

1 Cor 15:29
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” (2Ma 12:39-45 RSV)

 

[civilwarbuff]

1 Cor 15:29
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Paul was referring to the Jewish faith not the Christians; note the use of the words "those" and "they" not we and us. So the RCC actually waited until the 11th century before expounding on the concept of purgatory:
The idea of Purgatory as (like heaven and hell) a physical place was "born" in the late 11th century.[5] Medieval theologians concluded that the purgatorial punishments consisted of material fire. The Western formulation of purgatory proved to be a sticking point in the Great Schism between East and West. The Catholic Church believes that the living can help those whose purification from their sins is not yet completed not only by praying for them but also by gaining indulgences for them[6] as an act of intercession.[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

 

[Thursday]

Paul was referring to the Jewish faith not the Christians; note the use of the words "those" and "they" not we and us. So the RCC actually waited until the 11th century before expounding on the concept of purgatory:
The idea of Purgatory as (like heaven and hell) a physical place was "born" in the late 11th century.[5] Medieval theologians concluded that the purgatorial punishments consisted of material fire. The Western formulation of purgatory proved to be a sticking point in the Great Schism between East and West. The Catholic Church believes that the living can help those whose purification from their sins is not yet completed not only by praying for them but also by gaining indulgences for them[6] as an act of intercession.[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

More gibberish from non Catholic sources.

Try this:

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

 

[civilwarbuff]

More gibberish from non Catholic sources.

Try this:

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

I try to post something that is neither pro-Catholic or pro-Protestant in its viewpoint; frequently that is wiki as they don't really have a dog in the fight AFAIK. So, is there something in the wiki post in particular you object to as opposed to just posting a Catholic tract in "refutation"; or did you even bother to read the post? One of the biggest problems I find is that , outside of Macabee which Protestants don't accept, there is no supporting scripture; it seem based on the fact that well, the Jews did it so we should to.....how about something stronger than that?

 

[amariselle]

I try to post something that is neither pro-Catholic or pro-Protestant in its viewpoint; frequently that is wiki as they don't really have a dog in the fight AFAIK. So, is there something in the wiki post in particular you object to as opposed to just posting a Catholic tract in "refutation"; or did you even bother to read the post? One of the biggest problems I find is that , outside of Macabee which Protestants don't accept, there is no supporting scripture; it seem based on the fact that well, the Jews did it so we should to.....how about something stronger than that?

Yes, after all there is much the Jews did/still do that we as Christians are not likewise required to do. (Circumcision, animal sacrifice etc.) Not to mention, the Orthodox Jews as a whole do not accept Jesus as their Messiah to this day.

 

[amariselle]

The Catholic Church would not disagree with you in principle: we can, do, and should change our hearts because we know that is what God desires for us. Catholics in fact do this without a certain set of tasks 'commanded' of us by a priest' every time we worship.
The question then becomes: why would we want to do this alone, when Christ so clearly established His Church to provide us with aid? Jesus did not create a 'Lone-Ranger' style of Church.

I never said He did, nor did I say I want to change my life or my heart alone. Of course I recognize that Christ works in me to bring about this change, and that because of Him I am a new creation. I am also part of the "body of Christ", as Paul writes about.

In John's Gospel, we see that Jesus gave the gift of forgiveness (and retention) to His disciples. There is no reason within Scripture to assume that this gift died with them, but there are reasons to conclude that it remains a gift of the Church throughout the ages.

What do you make of Scripture that clearly states we can go boldly before God ourselves then? As well as Scripture that makes it clear that we have one Father in heaven, and no man (or woman) should have that kind of authority over us.

In 1 John, we are told of 'sins that lead to death'. The Catholic Church calls these 'mortal' sins.

ALL sin leads to death without our salvation and redemption in Christ Jesus.

Even within these sins, the Catholic Church would allow the 'wiggle room' that you seem to desire, and in rare circumstances would grant that these sins, which are serious in nature, done with free will, and committed with full knowledge that they will sever our relationship with Christ, that even these can be forgiven without a priest...however, these circumstances are rare and not ever to be considered the norm.

I don't desire any "wiggle room", I'm not playing around here, and I know that all sin is very serious. But I truly believe, based on Scripture, that we can each go directly to God and ask for forgiveness. Jesus has made this possible, and He alone is our Mediator.

As others have properly explained, confession to a priest is an earthly means of conveying Christ's forgiveness to us. While the role of the priest is to be the voice of Christ, it is important to note that the priest is not Christ - in that it is not the priest who ultimately grants forgiveness, but Christ and Christ alone.

Indeed, and this forgiveness is available to all who truly repent and call upon the name of Jesus to be saved. He will hear our prayers and confessions, even when they are not said in the presence of a Priest.

Can we agree that sometimes repentance from sin demands that atonement be made to those whom our sin may have wronged? (We can re-use the example that Thursday laid out within this thread of stealing, or I am open to another example). Can we steal and be forgiven? Answer: YES. Are we repentant if we do not wish to return that which we have stolen? Answer: Highly doubtful at best. Can a priest help us to see that we should, if our hearts are truly repentant, return that which we have wrongfully taken? Answer: Yes. Is a priest called to be a spiritual leader? Yes. Would a priest be remiss if he did not hold us accountable to our sins? Yes. I can keep going, but let's see if we can get this far without too much push back before going further.

None of what you wrote above is of dispute. True repentance brings about results and change. Of course the person who has repented and acknowledged their sin should do all they can to rectify and right the wrong they have done. All Christians should realize this, whether Catholic or not. And I do not believe we necessarily need the guidance of a Priest for this. The Holy Spirit does convict us of sin, and speaks to our hearts. In this way we know right from wrong.

Now, I'm not diminishing the opportunities and even responsibilities we have as brothers and sisters in Christ to encourage and uplift one another, but such guidance shouldn't need to be handed down through a specific church hierarchy to be meaningful or legitimate. And an official doctrine of penance, whereby someone we have given spiritual authority over us tells us what to do (especially things like a certain number of Our Fathers or Hail Marys) to make amends/ atone for our sin, is not Biblical.

You are also correct in stating that performing any penance is not a means of much of anything at all in and of itself. The Catholic Church would agree with you on that point as well...but would diverge from your line of thinking when coupled with Scriptures and the understanding that humility demands surrender and obedience, and it is in that humility that we we should desire to show our loving Father that we would make things 'right' with Him if it were within our power; and knowing that it is through His power, and the penalty paid for by His Son, that we even have the opportunity to be humble before Him.

Of course, I never said otherwise.

Back to work!
Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

Blessings

~Amariselle

 

[Berean777]

The word of God isn't the highest authority; the Word of God (Logos) is the highest authority. The former is entailed in the latter, and is an example of the latter. Scripture gives you general principles for how to live your life, but it doesn't guide you by the hand in day-to-day matters. That's where Christ in incorporeal form (the Logos) comes in. Just as the written word is read with the eyes, the unwritten Word is read with the soul (consciousness).

It's like choosing to trust the writings of a friend from ten years ago when he's trying to get your attention in flesh and blood. This emphasis on the written word can actually culminate in idolatry. Not to mention that putting scripture on the highest authoritative pedestal means the illiterate are worse off than the literate.

If we use your methadology friend then why not apply it to every part of your life, like......

Roads and traffic rule book
Legislative rule book
Product disclosure statements for your health, house, contents and car insurance
Your house title deeds
Banking statements

All the above is adolatry according to your inference right?