Is scripture the highest authority?

[Thursday]

In the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, an indulgence is "a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins"[1] which may reduce either or both of the penance required after a sin has been forgiven, or after death, the temporal punishment, (not "time," as Purgatory like Heaven and Hell is said to exist "outside of time,") in the state or process of purification called Purgatory. wiki

You need to brush up on your catechisms.....
BTW Purgatory does not exist except in the minds of the men who made it up.....maybe in an effort to wring more money from the sale of indulgences to the unknowing.....

Which fact that I've posted about Catholic teaching are you having trouble understanding?

Purgatory is the final sanctification of believers.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So Christians are cannibals?? In John's gospel Jesus was telling them to eat his body and drink his blood and they took it literally -- John 6:60: "On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” -- which is why so many disciples left at that point. If they had understood it as symbolic they wouldn't have called it a "hard teaching". If somebody literally told you to eat his body and drink his blood would you do it or recoil in horror?

Regarding the Eucharist Jesus said to eat the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of him. He put it in a way that his disciples would understand; they wouldn't climb over the table and literally start devouring him. That is why the concept of substantiation is incorrect.

BTW, the first celebrations of the bread and wine were at celebratory agape feasts. The churches have turned the wonderful celebration into time of somber ritual. Personally I happily rejoice in what my Savior has done for me, regularly sharing bread and wine with my friends and family.

I like the way you put that. Communion used to be a celebration, a meal shared with fellow believers and a joyful rememberance of the sacrifice Messiah made for us. Unfortunately the early church changed that into some mystical performance of a crust of bread and sip of wine changing into something it is not and then everyone is sent on their way. Too bad because the very early church had it right IMHO.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

How are these false doctrines? Purgatory is most definitely in the bible, as is referenced in I Corinthians 3:11-15 which states "For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

To me it's self-evident that the reward that is promised is for those who believe in God and that He is a God who rewards Hebrews 11:6. Those who don't believe are busy doing their own works.

Also, please point out to me where it states in the Bible that it needs to be in the Bible. I will give you a hint, it is nowhere in there.

It was the Catholic Church, the Church that was started by Jesus himself in Matthew 16:18-19, that gave the world the Holy Bible, ALL 73 BOOKS, in the 4th century AD. It is even stated that not everything that Jesus said or did was written down in John 21:25 "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

If it isn't supported by scripture then what do you have to stand on but man's word?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Purgatory is the final sanctification of believers.

This is sanctification:
1 Thessolonians:
23 May the God of peace himself make you holy in every way. And may your whole being—spirit, soul, and body—remain blameless when our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, appears.

Christianity
In the various branches of Christianity sanctification usually refers to a person becoming holy, with the details differing in different branches. wiki

Sanctification has nothing to do with spending any time suffering any punishment in the mythical place called purgatory.
pur·ga·to·ry
ˈpərɡəˌtôrē/
noun
1.
(in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.

Either the sacrifice by Messiah is sufficient for our complete remission of sin or his death was meaningless.....it can't mean both.

 

[pescador]

Are you saying that you now know better than the Jews who were THERE and HEARD Jesus speak? Don't you think that Jesus himself would have told them he was speaking symbolically? This is the ONLY point in the Bible where Jesus LOSES followers.

Jesus let them go, because He knew that He was speaking literally. Also, if it is symbolic, then why in John 6:53-57 does Jesus tell us that we need to eat his flesh to abide in him? Where is this term used before? Ah, also in John 15:4-7. In fact, Jesus tells us that those who do not abide in Him will be thrown into the fire. That is a scary thought.

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus was eaten?? When he was crucified all his parts were there.

 

[Thursday]

This is sanctification:
1 Thessolonians:
23 May the God of peace himself make you holy in every way. And may your whole being—spirit, soul, and body—remain blameless when our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, appears.

Christianity
In the various branches of Christianity sanctification usually refers to a person becoming holy, with the details differing in different branches. wiki

Sanctification has nothing to do with spending any time suffering any punishment in the mythical place called purgatory.
pur·ga·to·ry
ˈpərɡəˌtôrē/
noun
1.
(in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.

Either the sacrifice by Messiah is sufficient for our complete remission of sin or his death was meaningless.....it can't mean both.

Purgatory is for the saved. Our sanctification is only possible through Christ.

Your definitions are not accurate. Purgatory is not necessarily a place. If you want to know what the Church teaches, consult the Catechism, not a dictionary.

 

[Thursday]

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus was eaten??

1 Cor 11
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

John 6
53Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

 

[pescador]

I like the way you put that. Communion used to be a celebration, a meal shared with fellow believers and a joyful rememberance of the sacrifice Messiah made for us. Unfortunately the early church changed that into some mystical performance of a crust of bread and sip of wine changing into something it is not and then everyone is sent on their way. Too bad because the very early church had it right IMHO.

I totally agree! I just posted a response that said that Jesus' body was whole when he was crucified, so he couldn't have been eaten by anyone.

 

[Thursday]

I like the way you put that. Communion used to be a celebration, a meal shared with fellow believers and a joyful rememberance of the sacrifice Messiah made for us. Unfortunately the early church changed that into some mystical performance of a crust of bread and sip of wine changing into something it is not and then everyone is sent on their way. Too bad because the very early church had it right IMHO.

When did this change take place?

Can you show us a single Christian in the first 1000 years of Christianity who didn't believe in the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist?

 

[pescador]

1 Cor 11
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

John 6
53Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

You included verse 26 which says it all..."For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." If you think that the disciples literally ate Jesus, show me where. It isn't that hard to understand that Jesus was telling them SYMBOLICALLY that by eating bread and drinking wine they (and we) were to remember him in his absence. Again, if Jesus was crucified whole, when and where was he literally eaten??

When Jesus was reclining at a table, how could he be saying literally to eat him? He wasn't! As a whole, alive human being held up a piece of bread and a cup of wine to say that they were symbolic of his body and blood. It's so plain and simple!

 

[civilwarbuff]

Purgatory is for the saved. Our sanctification is only possible through Christ.

Your definitions are not accurate. Purgatory is not necessarily a place. If you want to know what the Church teaches, consult the Catechism, not a dictionary.

We are either sanctified through Messiah's sacrifice or we are not would you agree?

 

[Thursday]

You included verse 26 which says it all..."For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." If you think that the disciples literally ate Jesus, show me where. It isn't that hard to understand that Jesus was telling them SYMBOLICALLY that by eating bread and drinking wine they (and we) were to remember him in his absence. Again, if Jesus was crucified whole, when and where was he literally eaten??

When Jesus was reclining at a table, how could he be saying literally to eat him? He wasn't! As a whole, alive human being held up a piece of bread and a cup of wine to say that they were symbolic of his body and blood. It's so plain and simple!

You intentionally ignore all verses that prove your position to be unbiblical. It's bizzare.

29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Jesus MAKE THIS EXPLICIT:

55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

Jesus helped you to understand this earlier in John 6 when he walked on water and multiplied the fish and loaves.

Jesus can be more than one place at one time and in any form he chooses.

He controls time and matter.

 

[Thursday]

We are either sanctified through Messiah's sacrifice or we are not would you agree?

Do you believe that all men are sanctified?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Can you show us a single Christian in the first 1000 years of Christianity who didn't believe in the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist?

Can you show anyone in scripture who admits to it? I don't really care what men "believed", I care what Messiah taught.

When did this change take place?

1 Corinthians 11
Concerning the Lord’s Supper
17 Now I am not praising you in giving you the following instructions. When you gather, it is not for the better but for the worse.
18 For in the first place, I hear that when you gather as a church there are divisions among you, and I partly believe it.
19 Of course, there must be factions among you to show which of you are genuine!
20 When you gather in the same place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper.
21 For as you eat, each of you rushes to eat his own supper, and one person goes hungry while another gets drunk.
22 You have homes in which to eat and drink, don’t you? Or do you despise God’s church and humiliate those who have nothing? What should I say to you? Should I praise you? I will not praise you for this!
Sometime after here but you are the expert on RCC Tradition so I figured you would know.....

 

[civilwarbuff]

1 Cor 11
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Well, it can't be His blood because in the verses 17-21 they were getting drunk on it.......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Do you believe that all men are sanctified?

Just answer the question:

We are either sanctified through Messiah's sacrifice or we are not would you agree?

 

[Thursday]

Can you show anyone in scripture who admits to it? I don't really care what men "believed", I care what Messiah taught.

Then why do you ignore his crystal clear words?

Matt 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

John 6
“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Mark 14:22
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."



There were doubters like you very early on. They were called Gnostics.

St. Ignatius writes about them here in 107 AD:

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

 

[Thursday]

Just answer the question:

You won't answer the question because it will expose the error in your position.

If all men are not sanctified, then something else must be required than the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Then why do you ignore his crystal clear words?

Matt 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

John 6
“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Mark 14:22
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."



There were doubters like you very early on. They were called Gnostics.

St. Ignatius writes about them here in 107 AD:

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

Luke 22:
19 Then he took a loaf of bread, gave thanks, broke it in pieces, and handed it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.”

 

[civilwarbuff]

You won't answer the question because it will expose the error in your position.

If all men are not sanctified, then something else must be required than the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Only believers are sanctified, not all men. I am surprised that has to be explained to a Catholic.
Now answer my question.....
We are either sanctified through Messiah's sacrifice or we are not would you agree?