Is scripture the highest authority?

[lesliedellow]

Christ taught the Apostles, they appointed Bishops who appointed Bishops own to the present age. Hence the Church is the body of Bishops who as the Bible said is the pillar and foundation of truth. Note the Bible never claims to be the highest autority that idea is man made.

The apostles could claim special authority because they knew Christ personally. The next generation could doubtless claim special authority because they knew the apostles personally. But by the time you get to the tenth generation, and beyond, that is wearing a bit thin. That doesn't prevent a Church bent upon self aggrandisement from pushing it, of course.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

The fact the people can and do twist/pervert scripture in no way diminishes the authority of God's word as recorded in scripture.

In all your posts, have you answered my question of what authority currently and physically present on earth is higher than God's words recorded in scripture?

There is no authority higher than Christ's teachings because his teachings are inerrant. Again, the entire argument is not one of subordination, it's one of predication. The record of Christ's teachings is not subordinate to the Church, but neither is the Church predicated on that record; rather that record is predicated upon the Church. In other words, the Church could and would still validly exist whether or not there was any written New Testament, whereas the New Testament would not exist if the Church didn't write it.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Christ taught the Apostles, they appointed Bishops who appointed Bishops own to the present age. Hence the Church is the body of Bishops who as the Bible said is the pillar and foundation of truth. Note the Bible never claims to be the highest autority that idea is man made.

The Church is the Body of Believers, the bishops are within it. The bishops lead this body, but they are not infallible and even if they unanimously agreed to something, they would not be speaking for the Church nor with any authority if it contradicted Christ's teachings. The Bible is not venerated because bishops wrote it or approved it, it is venerated because it is an inerrant witness to Christ's teachings; however, that inerrant witness obviously wouldn't have been written or assembled without the collective effort of bishops, who are charged with preserving Christ's teachings.

Bishops are not an authority of themselves, they are stewards of the Church. They do not nor can they teach new dogma, their responsibility, and the extent of their authority, is solely to preserve Christ's dogma. They can agree on making various canons, rules to facilitate the functioning of the Church, but these canons can never be considered dogma, and they can be and often are changed; canons are ad hoc, dogma is absolute; dogma is truth, not just a rule.

 

[topcare]

The Church is the Body of Believers, the bishops are within it. The bishops lead this body, but they are not infallible and even if they unanimously agreed to something, they would not be speaking for the Church nor with any authority if it contradicted Christ's teachings. The Bible is not venerated because bishops wrote it or approved it, it is venerated because it is an inerrant witness to Christ's teachings; however, that inerrant witness obviously wouldn't have been written or assembled without the collective effort of bishops, who are charged with preserving Christ's teachings.

Bishops are not an authority of themselves, they are stewards of the Church. They do not nor can they teach new dogma, their responsibility, and the extent of their authority, is solely to preserve Christ's dogma. They can agree on making various canons, rules to facilitate the function of the Church, but these canons can never be considered dogma, and they can be and often are changed; canons are ad hoc, dogma is absolute; dogma is truth, not just a rule.

I see nothing I disagree with. I am just not great with explaining things, thank you

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

The apostles could claim special authority because they knew Christ personally. The next generation could doubtless claim special authority because they knew the apostles personally. But by the time you get to the tenth generation, and beyond, that is wearing a bit thin. That doesn't prevent a Church bent upon self aggrandisement from pushing it, of course.

The Holy Spirit maintains it, that's why Apostolic Succession isn't just procedure, it's a Sacrament.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I have no problem with any quoted verses and stated none.

My contention with you is not getting an answer to my question, what source of incontrovertible truth do we have presently on earth?

It would appear the only thing you have is a contention

I am not the OP, and if you want all your questions answered just open up your own thread and begin asking them.

 

[lesliedellow]

The Holy Spirit maintains it, that's why Apostolic Succession isn't just procedure, it's a Sacrament.

Rubbish. It is self aggrandisement.

 

[Fireinfolding]

It would appear the only thing you have is a contention

I am not the OP, and if you want all your questions answered just open up your own thread and begin asking them.

Alright, I will have eat my words here because this is your OP which you started whereas I thought I jumped on someone elses, and with that I am out of the thread, not interested,

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Christians are sinners, and, even if they are sincere, they can fool themselves into thinking that the indwelling Spirit is telling them whatever they like.

The same is true with bible interpretation though ..

 

[Razare]

The highest authority is the Holy Spirit + Scripture.

If the Holy Spirit left the Earth, there would be scripture but no ability to understand it truthfully. It's hard to believe but it's true. The Holy Spirit allows us to believe and understand scripture.

This is important because a lot of people today use scripture to argue against the Holy Spirit, and when they do, they ignore the Holy Spirit in their interpretation. Only those who would listen to the Holy Spirit could tell true teaching from false teaching.

But at a basic level, the Holy Spirit is involved when a scripture is believed in full context with understanding. It's that simple, even lost people can receive seeds from the word with the Holy Spirit assisting them.

 

[Winken]

Without question, God Himself is the Authority. However, He has provided the Bible as a reference and He expects His followers to consult the Bible for directions for living. (And dying, for that matter.) When we ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, the Holy Spirit directs us to the Bible and under no circumstances contradicts the message of the Bible.
To claim "Since God is the authority, we can disregard the Bible" is an affront to God.

So to answer the posted question (Is Scripture the Highest Authority We now have on Earth) directly, Yes.

THANK YOU !!!

 

[Winken]

The Church is the Body of Believers, the bishops are within it. The bishops lead this body, but they are not infallible and even if they unanimously agreed to something, they would not be speaking for the Church nor with any authority if it contradicted Christ's teachings. The Bible is not venerated because bishops wrote it or approved it, it is venerated because it is an inerrant witness to Christ's teachings; however, that inerrant witness obviously wouldn't have been written or assembled without the collective effort of bishops, who are charged with preserving Christ's teachings.

Bishops are not an authority of themselves, they are stewards of the Church. They do not nor can they teach new dogma, their responsibility, and the extent of their authority, is solely to preserve Christ's dogma. They can agree on making various canons, rules to facilitate the functioning of the Church, but these canons can never be considered dogma, and they can be and often are changed; canons are ad hoc, dogma is absolute; dogma is truth, not just a rule.

I was praying for clarity.....now you are addressing the core issue!!

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I was praying for clarity.....now you are addressing the core issue!!

There is a confusion about the point of bishops because in the West there came to be an idea that the Pope was infallible. In the East, we believe no man is infallible except Christ. We do believe, however, that Christ wanted particular people to specialize in guarding and transmitting his teachings and in shepherding his flock, and Scripture exists because of them and in their capacity in this duty; we also believe that Scripture is not, nor was ever intended to be, an exhaustive record of Christ's teachings. Christ did not just say things, like in a classroom, to his proteges; he spent years with them and carefully taught an entire mindset and how to teach, how to minister, how to counsel, many, many things, in very great depth. They in turn passed all this down, as well as writing various works to various churches (not all the works together in a volume, but different letters to different churches for different purposes); much of what they wrote was collected by the Church because it greatly facilitated learning Christ's teachings when they (or bishops who explain them) could be so readily and extensively quoted during worship.

We do not accept Christ's teachings because bishops say so; we DO, however, accept bishops because Christ said so, and we know he said so because of his bishops. Bishops can and do make mistakes and outright lie sometimes, but they are also indispensable to the Church; the Church existed before NT Scripture was written, and did not need NT Scripture to function (but it is a great gift from God beyond value); however, the Church could NOT function without bishops, since bishops, though fallible, are the original source of Christ's teachings, as well as those Christ entrusted to ensure his teachings and mindset were passed on.

 

[Xalith]

My personal beliefs, is that Scripture is a collection of words given to Man by God.

In John 5:39, Jesus says that they (the Jews of the time) believed they had Eternal Life in Scriptures, but it wasn't the Scriptures which made Eternal Life possible, but rather Jesus Himself.

We Christians face a similar problem today: Many Christians think a physical book, physical papers, and physical ink can give them Eternal Life.

They put their trust in a Book that has been translated, and re-translated, and re-translated and is far from the original words He spoke (depending on which version you use).

We're not supposed to trust in a Book for our Salvation. No, we are to trust in Jesus Christ Himself.

Said Book is a collection of words from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all compiled together. It is not exhaustive (I'm sure God has said things that were not recorded in the Book, and the Book doesn't give 100% of the story), but is authoritative in the way that if you come across anything (teaching, another writing, doctrine, etc) that contradicts Scripture, then it is wrong, full on. This is assuming you are interpreting it properly, though.

Scripture is meant to be a guide to lead us to Him and guide us to lead holy lives.
Scripture is meant to be a measure by which we measure anything we come across.

Scripture is not, however, a replacement for Him.

We don't worship a book, we worship God and His Son.

The entire concept of "Sola Scriptura" is basically telling you to limit yourself to only the things written in a book, and to immediately disregard everything else that comes your way. What if all the Jews, the Apostles included, invoked Sola Scriptura with the Torah? They would have rejected some/many of Christ's teachings because they were not in the Torah.

Do you people seriously believe that God never says anything to anybody, ever? He doesn't give Dreams? Visions?

Then why did He say in Acts 2:17-21 that "It shall come to pass in the last days" that "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" and "your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams"?

This tells me that God does very much intend to reveal more of what He has to say.

I'd say that Acts 2:17-21 wholly defeats the idea of Sola Scriptura hands-down. If we limit ourselves to the Bible and throw out everything that's not in the Bible, then we are going against God in Acts 2:17-21 when He promises to give Visions, Dreams, and Words to us in "the last days".

 

[pescador]

It had been shown throughout history that the church has done things that are contrary to the Bible's teachings. There have been many, many heresies and false teachings as well as acts of unspeakable hatred and violence. One only has to look at the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition to see how the doctrine of men acn lead them far, far away from the doctrine of Christ as is written in the Bible.

How else does one discern false teachings, false doctrines, and outright heresies except by turning to the Bible, which, unlike humanity, is infallible?

 

[Xalith]

It had been shown throughout history that the church has done things that are contrary to the Bible's teachings. There have been many, many heresies and false teachings as well as acts of unspeakable hatred and violence. One only has to look at the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition to see how the doctrine of men acn lead them far, far away from the doctrine of Christ as is written in the Bible.

How else does one discern false teachings, false doctrines, and outright heresies except by turning to the Bible, which, unlike humanity, is infallible?

Again, the Bible is a guide, it is a measure, by which we are to compare everything we see, hear, and are taught to.

It is not, however, the sole source of learning or instruction.

When you receive teachings, you are to "test the spirits" (1 John 4, IIRC). You do this by comparing what you are being taught to the Bible and see if it stands up or if it is false.

Sola Scriptura as I understand it says that the Bible is the one and only source of learning, and if you are taught anything that does not exist in the Bible (even though it doesn't conflict with the Bible!) it is automatically false and not to be taken to heart.

EDIT: In the end, the Bible has the final say-so: If a conflict arises, the Bible is the one that is right. However, the Bible isn't the only say-so. John said "Test the Spirits". John did not say "Disbelieve anything that isn't in Scripture".

 

[timewerx]

Some falsely claim that others today continue with the same authority as the first apostles, and that the Holy Spirit speaks through them with equal truth. I ask what proof of their authority do we have? Were they called directly by Jesus? Do they perform the miracles like Jesus did. Are their words added to the canon?

It is according to what Jeremiah prophesied regarding the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."…

This is fulfilled/repeated in 1 John 2:27:

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Promise of the Spirit of Truth - John 16:13

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Again, the Bible is a guide, it is a measure, by which we are to compare everything we see, hear, and are taught to.

It is not, however, the sole source of learning or instruction.

When you receive teachings, you are to "test the spirits" (1 John 4, IIRC). You do this by comparing what you are being taught to the Bible and see if it stands up or if it is false.

COOL! Yes, the Bible is THE STANDARD. In actual Truth, the Bible has not changed in 2000 years plus ..... (literally concerning TORAH, and in meaning concerning even the NT).

That is, Yhwh has not changed His meaning no matter what or how it came out in english translations....
And, likewise , there is ONLY one way to receive Yhwh's meaning (and that is not by interpretation by which billions have been deceived totally)....

in fact, that's one way to tell 'sooner', or maybe just a 'red flag' learned,
if
someone says their or that 'interpretation' is the one, then it is false. This is almost always true (that 'interpretations' are false)....

note that 'translations' are fine. it is 'interpretations' that are false.
practically, all 'translations' are okay and good even.(Yhwh revealing)
and practically all 'interpretations' are not just FALSE, but misleading and evil.

see JOHN 17 for Jesus prayer for all His disciples that clarifies clearly HIS WAY.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

It is according to what Jeremiah prophesied regarding the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."…

This is fulfilled/repeated in 1 John 2:27:

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Promise of the Spirit of Truth - John 16:13

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John's very writing of the epistle is teaching, don't be obtuse, you know what he means.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

COOL! Yes, the Bible is THE STANDARD. In actual Truth, the Bible has not changed in 2000 years plus ..... (literally concerning TORAH, and in meaning concerning even the NT).

That is, Yhwh has not changed His meaning no matter what or how it came out in english translations....
And, likewise , there is ONLY one way to receive Yhwh's meaning (and that is not by interpretation by which billions have been deceived totally)....

in fact, that's one way to tell 'sooner', or maybe just a 'red flag' learned,
if
someone says their or that 'interpretation' is the one, then it is false. This is almost always true (that 'interpretations' are false)....

note that 'translations' are fine. it is 'interpretations' that are false.
practically, all 'translations' are okay and good even.(Yhwh revealing)
and practically all 'interpretations' are not just FALSE, but misleading and evil.

see JOHN 17 for Jesus prayer for all His disciples that clarifies clearly HIS WAY.

A lot of translations are actually awful. ESV, RSV, KJV are all good. NIV and NRSV belong in the trash. And the "Message" translation is horrendous.