Is scripture the highest authority?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Good post; how can we put the word of man above the Word of God?

Isn't that like asking how to bury oneself alive ? Too gruesome to ask or to even think about !

 

[pescador]

Of course there will be people who abandon the Church. Jesus said that he would divide family members from each other, let alone random followers of the Church.

We read in scripture that many left the Church because they couldn't handle the teaching of the Eucharist:

John 6
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”.......
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Or for unknown reasons:

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

The teaching of the Eucharist?? Jesus was telling them to eat his body and drink his blood, not to eat bread and drink wine. They understood it literally. When Jesus taught about the Eucharist he explained the symbolism and they all ate and drank together.

When John wrote about people leaving the church it wasn't for unknown reasons. It was because they had believed a different doctrine; John called them "antichrists". He said that "they did not really belong to us". I wouldn't expect that anyone who denied Christ would stay in any church.

 

[pescador]

You keep posting one false accusation after another.

To quote St. Jerome, "ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."

Of course Catholics are encouraged to study scripture. After all, the bible is a Catholic book!

That's odd. Obviously none of the Jewish Old Testament writers were Catholics and I don't see anywhere where the New Testament authors, who were all Jews except perhaps Luke, said they were Catholics.

The Bible is the Bible, God's word. It is the sacred book of Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. It is most certainly not a Catholic book.

 

[amariselle]

You keep posting one false accusation after another.

To quote St. Jerome, "ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."

Of course Catholics are encouraged to study scripture. After all, the bible is a Catholic book!

The Bible is God's divinely inspired word, not simply a "book" made by mankind.

 

[amariselle]

Indulgences have always been part of Christianity.

There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that teaches anything about indulgences and/or their necessity.

The early church written about in the Bible did not practice indulgences, nor did Jesus teach a single thing about indulgences.

If indulgences are a necessary part of Christianity (being a follower of Christ) then why did Jesus never teach this? Why didn't Paul teach about it? Why didn't the other disciples teach about it?

Indulgences are a man made doctrine, with no Scriptural basis whatsoever, and there is no record of them being part of the early Christian church.

IThe selling of indulgences has never been Catholic doctrine, however.

It was the Catholic Church that taught and required the purchase of indulgences at a certain point. Insist that the sale of indulgences was not official Catholic doctrine if you like, that doesn't change the fact that this practice was absolutely authorized and perpetrated by the Catholic Church.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When John wrote about people leaving the church it wasn't for unknown reasons. It was because they had believed a different doctrine; John called them "antichrists". He said that "they did not really belong to us". I wouldn't expect that anyone who denied Christ would stay in any church.

What would be God's Reason for not staying in some church ?

 

[Thursday]

And where in scripture is such activity supported? And when did it start because I doubt the "always" part of your statement.

Yes it is. Jesus said that our Father in heaven will reward us for almsgiving.

 

[Thursday]

There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that teaches anything about indulgences and/or their necessity.

Wrong. There is much in scripture about indulgences. Jesus tells us that we will be rewarded for almsgiving.

Paul tells us that we will reign with Christ if indeed we suffer with him. etc.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yes it is. Jesus said that our Father in heaven will reward us for almsgiving.

Yep, the Father looks favorably on charity but the almstaker will not be able to pray you into Heaven, out of Purgatory, or any where else......

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes it is. Jesus said that our Father in heaven will reward us for almsgiving.

I think you may be right about this,
IF you can show any Scripture that says so. Otherwise not.

 

[amariselle]

Wrong. There is much in scripture about indulgences. Jesus tells us that we will be rewarded for almsgiving.

Paul tells us that we will reign with Christ if indeed we suffer with him. etc.

That is not the same as Catholic teaching and doctrine on indulgences.

Since you disagree, perhaps you can quote Scripture directly in regard to where it clearly talks about indulgences the way the Catholic Church does.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Indulgences have always been part of Christianity. The selling of indulgences has never been Catholic doctrine, however.

You ignore most of my post. Is there a difference between the doctrine of a church and what it teaches/promotes?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Of course many Catholics look to the Church for guidance and interpretation, and the bible as a supplement to their spiritual path and life - not something that needs us to become lifelong students of.

My last question, why would the Catholic Church not encourage the study of God's recorded word? I know it was that way in the past when the education levels were lower, but today, I can't see a reason for that attitude.

To quote St. Jerome, "ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."

Of course Catholics are encouraged to study scripture. After all, the bible is a Catholic book!

My post was a response to Derek and his weak encouragement of Bible study. When the Bible is just a "supplement" to what the Church teaches, it is not a strongly encouraged resource to be studied. I guess Thursday is a better Catholic than Derek; although it seems like Thursday quotes the saints more than scripture.

 

[Thursday]

The teaching of the Eucharist?? Jesus was telling them to eat his body and drink his blood, not to eat bread and drink wine. They understood it literally.

It is literal. That's why the majority of Christians have always believed it as literal.

I challenge you to find a single Christian in the first 1200 years of Christianity who didn't believe in the real presence of the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. Good Luck!

 

[Thursday]

The Bible is God's divinely inspired word, not simply a "book" made by mankind.

True.

However, Jesus used his Church, the Catholic Church, to select the books of the New Testament.

 

[Thursday]

Yep, the Father looks favorably on charity but the almstaker will not be able to pray you into Heaven, out of Purgatory, or any where else......

You don't understand indulgences or purgatory.

Purgatory is ONLY for the saved.

 

[Thursday]

I think you may be right about this,
IF you can show any Scripture that says so. Otherwise not.

Matt 6:4
Give your gifts in private, and your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.

 

[Thursday]

My post was a response to Derek and his weak encouragement of Bible study. When the Bible is just a "supplement" to what the Church teaches, it is not a strongly encouraged resource to be studied. I guess Thursday is a better Catholic than Derek; although it seems like Thursday quotes the saints more than scripture.

Derek is right and we don't disagree. The Church teaches truth. A person alone in a room with scripture could very easily reach the wrong conclusions. That's why protestantism is full of multiple contradictory, and therefore false, doctrines.

 

[Thursday]

You ignore most of my post. Is there a difference between the doctrine of a church and what it teaches/promotes?

There is a difference between doctrines, which come from Christ and the apostles, and disciplines, which are dictated by the Church based on their authority to bind and loose.

Doctrines never change. Disciplines can change.

 

[Thursday]

That is not the same as Catholic teaching and doctrine on indulgences.

Since you disagree, perhaps you can quote Scripture directly in regard to where it clearly talks about indulgences the way the Catholic Church does.

An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven.

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

2 Corinthians 12:15
And for the sake of your souls, I will most gladly spend my money and myself. If I love you more, will you love me less?