Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

[Souldier]

The actual Law does not forbid walking through a grain field and munching on whatever you happen to find. That is the part that the Jews made up. It is not in the OT.

Also healing was not forbidden on the Sabbath in either OT or NT - in fact Christ argues that His work is completely consistent with the Law of God.

It is the unchristian Jews that accuse Christ of breaking God's Law - Christ never says "yes I am breaking the Law of God because I am trying to teach my followers how to break God's Law and have no worries about it".

In fact in Gal 4 it is stated that Christ "born under the Law" perfectly complied with that Law.

in 1John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law" -- and Christ had no sin.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Christ gave His commandments at Sinai according to Heb 8:6-10 and so in the 3rd commandment 'Love Me and Keep My commandments" so also in John 14:15 before the cross "If you Love Me Keep My Commandments"

in Christ,

Bob

OK. I don't know the OT law as much as you perhaps, but this was taken from a website, please correct anything listed here that may not be correct. Looking at this list i see many things that are not allowed on the Sabbath. Are you seriously telling me that i need to refrain from these things on the Saturday Sabbath, or on any other day for than matter?



The 39 Prohibited Activities

Sowing
Plowing
Reaping
Binding sheaves
Threshing
Winnowing
Selecting
Grinding
Sifting
Kneading
Baking
Shearing wool
Washing wool

Beating wool
Dyeing wool
Spinning
Weaving
Making two loops
Weaving two threads
Separating two threads
Tying
Untying
Sewing stitches
Tearing
Trapping
Slaughtering

Flaying
Tanning
Scraping hide
Marking hides
Cutting hide to shape
Writing two or more letters
Erasing two or more letters
Building
Demolishing
Extinguishing a fire
Kindling a fire
Putting the finishing touch on an object
Transporting an object between a private domain and the public domain, or for a distance of 4 cubits within the public domain.

 

[BobRyan]

On Sabbath you could walk, and you could eat, and you could eat while walking etc.

the Jews were great at "making stuff up" -- and this is the problem Christ was contending with.

At no point does Christ argue in favor of violating God's Word.

Though the non-christian Jews tried to accuse Him of that all the time.

When in Mark 7 they try one of their "made up rules" on Christ - He ends his statement to them this way

"13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

This "Word of God" in Mark 7 that Christ speaks of -- is one of the TEN Commandments.

At no point does Christ argue "really does not matter if you want to violate the Word of God - no big deal"

 

[Souldier]

Christ said that the Priests do work for the temple on Sabbath and are innocent - and He claimed that in the service of God - He Himself is even greater than the temple and so service to Him is that much more appropriate on Sabbath.


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The Pharisees did not object to the act of taking the grain. Such plucking of the grain was allowed by the law ( Deuteronomy 23:25 ) and is still practiced by hungry travelers in Palestine, which is, and has always been,[/FONT]

Matt 12:5
"Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Jesus shows innocence when it comes to violating God's Law - he does not proclaim the goodness of breaking the law - the goodness of sin.

The "other way" to do this would have been for Christ to say "it does not matter if this is breaking the Law of God or not when it comes to the Sabbath because the Sabbath is ended -- even before the cross... ended".

It is instructive that He is not choosing that option.

Still we are not under the Law so why should i observe Sabbath? We are taught that love is the way. We do not steal, kill, commit adultery for the sake of love. I just dont see where the apostles teach us that Observing Sabbath is something i need to do. I see that for the sake of love i should not desire to work my animals 7 days a week but should give them rest. Likewise my employees need rest. I should not labor to get wealth either, i should instead labor for riches in heaven. Thats the law i see, its spiritual law. Its about liberty from the law but we are still taught to live spiritually. I see Paul saying that things like holy days are a shadow of things to come in Christ. I should strive to enter into Gods rest according to Hebrews but i just dont see that observing Sabbath according to the law is how i do that. Thats what i believe. So its ok to pick and eat wheat on sabbath but i cannot write or erase a letter? That just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Souldier]

On Sabbath you could walk, and you could eat, and you could eat while walking etc.

the Jews were great at "making stuff up" -- and this is the problem Christ was contending with.

At no point does Christ argue in favor of violating God's Word.

Though the non-christian Jews tried to accuse Him of that all the time.

When in Mark 7 they try one of their "made up rules" on Christ - He ends his statement to them this way

"13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

This "Word of God" in Mark 7 that Christ speaks of -- is one of the TEN Commandments.

At no point does Christ argue "really does not matter if you want to violate the Word of God - no big deal"

What about an eye for an eye. Is that in the law?

 

[BobRyan]

yes that is in the Law. Two men fighting that damage a woman who is pregnant and in so damaging her - they also damage the baby - so for example destroying one of the babies eyes. Eye-for-eye punishment. It is civil law - applied under a theocracy.

Ex 21
22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,



Notice that even the Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith take note of this fact.


The civil laws of the OT - apply to that theocracy. Whatever government we have today - is not the Jewish Theocracy.

 

[Souldier]

yes that is in the Law. Two men fighting that damage a woman who is pregnant and in so damaging her - they also damage the baby - so for example destroying one of the babies eyes. Eye-for-eye punishment. It is civil law - applied under a theocracy.

Ex 21
22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,



Notice that even the Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith take note of this fact.


The civil laws of the OT - apply to that theocracy. Whatever government we have today - is not the Jewish Theocracy.

It may have been a civil law but Christ gets rid of it anyway. He says forgive instead. I'm sorry Bob, i just don't see the apostles leading us to follow the Law. They do give us commands as Christ does, but they do not teach us to observe Sabbath. They teach us that we should learn about and walk in love. They teach us about lust as well, and teach us that we should abstain from it. They do not teach us to observe the law. Never.

 

[BobRyan]

Still we are not under the Law so why should i observe Sabbath? We are taught that love is the way. We do not steal, kill, commit adultery for the sake of love.

No longer under the curse of the Law. but under the NEW Covenant of Heb 8 (quoted from Jer 31:31-33) the LAW of God is "written on the heart and mind" instead of "abolished".

this is why Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the LAW of God"

If the point is that while Christ and His followers were under the Law prior to the cross - and all that they taught would be law-keeping, after the cross we are no longer under the law - so then no need to worry about it.

Then James 2 -- should not exist.

Rev 14:12 should not exist - where John says that the difference between the saints and the lost is that the saints 'keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

Romans 8:4-8 Paul says it is only the lost who are at war with God, that do not keep or submit to His Law.

John says 'Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4 and also "I write to you that you SIN not" 1 John 2:1.

Eph 6:1-2 - should not exist.

Romans 13 - out the window.

1Cor 6 ... gone.

Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

I just dont see where the apostles teach us that Observing Sabbath is something i need to do. I see that for the sake of love i should not desire to work my animals 7 days a week but should give them rest.

How about "for the sake of Love" --

Do not have other gods before ME.
Do not make any graven images - do not serve them or bow to them.
Do not take God's name in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day ... 'of the Lord thy God"

As Is 57:13-14 state "the Holy day of the Lord"

Would not Love For God lead to honoring the day of the Lord Thy God when even Christ said in Mark 2:28 "The Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath"???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It may have been a civil law but Christ gets rid of it anyway. He says forgive instead.

1. They were under Roman rule in Matt 5 -- not a Theocracy any more.

2. Christ said that as an individual you were not to use civil-law but moral law to govern your behavior. That has always been true. Moral law is always more restrictive on the individual than civil law.

3. To introduce Christ's rule in Matt 5 as a funny kind of new civil law would mean slapping the victims with fines and jail time for not "turning the other cheek" -- it is clearly a moral law that He is describing -- not civil law.

The very chapter where Christ said NOT to imagine that He is setting aside God's Law - and for sure not to teach it --- is where some folks teach it.

[FONT=&quot]Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [/FONT]

you are making your case for tossing God's Law out -- from Matt 5 example on "eye for eye" civil law being contrasted by Christ with moral law for the individual. Where Christ starts out with - "do not claim I am setting aside the Law of God."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Souldier]

No longer under the curse of the Law. but under the NEW Covenant of Heb 8 (quoted from Jer 31:31-33) the LAW of God is "written on the heart and mind" instead of "abolished".

this is why Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the LAW of God"

If the point is that while Christ and His followers were under the Law prior to the cross - and all that they taught would be law-keeping, after the cross we are no longer under the law - so then no need to worry about it.

Then James 2 -- should not exist.

Rev 14:12 should not exist - where John says that the difference between the saints and the lost is that the saints 'keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

Romans 8:4-8 Paul says it is only the lost who are at war with God, that do not keep or submit to His Law.

John says 'Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4 and also "I write to you that you SIN not" 1 John 2:1.

Eph 6:1-2 - should not exist.

Romans 13 - out the window.

1Cor 6 ... gone.

Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"



How about "for the sake of Love" --

Do not have other gods before ME.
Do not make any graven images - do not serve them or bow to them.
Do not take God's name in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day ... 'of the Lord thy God"

As Is 57:13-14 state "the Holy day of the Lord"

Would not Love For God lead to honoring the day of the Lord Thy God when even Christ said in Mark 2:28 "The Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath"???

in Christ,

Bob

If we love others as our self we do well. The commands of Christ and His apostles teach us a lot about love and a wise person will follow and meditate on those things. That's how we learn about our self and about love. We must love God too and the Lord and His apostles will lead us in that direction but i don't see how observing Sabbath, which is something God never asked me to do, has anything to do with loving God or my neighbor. I see why God wants us to rest from worldly pursuits but i think this is done everyday and not just on Saturday. I also see why we should give others who are under our employment rest, that's about love. I see a lot of wisdom is the Sabbath day concerning those things, and i do know that this is just my opinion but its what i see. I see the rest thing as a spiritual teaching however. I don't quite understand it fully but i don't see that God wants me to rest on Sabbath. I should rest from some things everyday and i should walk spiritually everyday. But a certain holy day of rest is not needed. Anyway we have gotten off topic a bit. I would suggest that we open a law thread but im not interested in debating that anyway.

 

[BobRyan]

"Love God with all your heart" Mosaic law from Deut 6:5 also affirmed by Christ in Matt 22.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" Mosaic Levitical law from Lev 19:18 also affirmed by Christ in Matt 22.

Even the Jews knew this and agreed to it.

Nothing new there.

It is pure old testament.

Your response is "as if" there is only one Command "Love your neighbor" as if what Christ called the FIRST commandment does not even exist "Love God with all your heart" - can that be??

but i don't see how observing Sabbath, which is something God never asked me to do, has anything to do with loving God or my neighbor.

If you are member of "mankind" then the Sabbath was "made" for you according to Christ "the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27.

And you will be keeping Sabbath for all eternity Is 66;23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down"

And the gentiles of the OT were also commanded to keep the Sabbath Is 56:2-6.

We do not rest from our secular work and activity 7 days a week - rather we work 6 days and we have a day devoted to worship - according to God where secular interruptions cannot enter.

It is considered as an act of obedience and love for God - which Christ said is the "greatest commandment" even above "love your neighbor".

in your post - it sometimes appears as if "Love for your neighbor" is the only commandment. We both know however that God should be allowed to keep the one He says is even greater than that one -- right?

in Christ,

Bob.

 

[Souldier]

"Love God with all your heart" Mosaic law from Deut 6:5 also affirmed by Christ in Matt 22.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" Mosaic Levitical law from Lev 19:18 also affirmed by Christ in Matt 22.

Even the Jews knew this and agreed to it.

Nothing new there.

It is pure old testament.

Your response is "as if" there is only one Command "Love your neighbor" as if what Christ called the FIRST commandment does not even exist "Love God with all your heart" - can that be??

If you are member of "mankind" then the Sabbath was "made" for you according to Christ "the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27.

And you will be keeping Sabbath for all eternity Is 66;23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down"

And the gentiles of the OT were also commanded to keep the Sabbath Is 56:2-6.

We do not rest from our secular work and activity 7 days a week - rather we work 6 days and we have a day devoted to worship - according to God where secular interruptions cannot enter.

It is considered as an act of obedience and love for God - which Christ said is the "greatest commandment" even above "love your neighbor".

in your post - it sometimes appears as if "Love for your neighbor" is the only commandment. We both know however that God should be allowed to keep the one He says is even greater than that one -- right?

in Christ,

Bob.

My defense is liberty is Christ. Liberty in the spirit. I think im walking in liberty. I like where im at. I dont think love thy neighbor is all we are taught by the apostles. I just think that as we walk spiritually we can understand how to live by that particular rule, but other commands also help us understand as well. I just think we have freedom from the law, we follow love and holiness, faith and hope, peace and righteousness. I just dont see Sabbath in that equation. I respect your concern about it but nothing can change my mind about it. Not unless God shows me something i havent seen yet.

 

[fhansen]

So then - do you think that there are times when it is "not safe" to follow the Bible?

in Christ,

Bob

This change occurred very, very early in the Church. Worship and fellowship and the breaking of bread on the Lords Day is already evident in Scripture, and the Tradition of observing the sabbath day of rest on that day, while not explicit in Scripture, was apparently considered to be within the purview of the Church's authority under the New Law. A missing dogma in any overt way and one that, again, has only vague Scriptural support -which your denomination obviously denies.

 

[Souldier]

the Church's authority under the New Law.

The new law. That sounds legalistic. I came to the conclusion that there is no law, there is just the knowledge of right and wrong, and the guidance of the spirit.. The law cannot ever be made perfect accept through the spirit. Paul says that we should not get drunk on wine but be filled with the spirit but that doesnt mean a person overcome with grief is wrong to get drunk. Perhaps getting drunk is not the best answer but it can happen to anyone. It just means that they need to work out their sorrow. God says its wrong to lie yet is it wrong to lie if it helps someone? There are times when lying isn't wrong. If it doesn't hurt anyone but instead helps someone, then how is it wrong? Abraham lied once, was it wrong to lie in that situation?

 

[Souldier]

Paul teaches us not to lie to one another. I see a good reason not to lie to each other, it destroys trust and that would not be love, it would cause someone to stumble. I don't think Abraham failed to love with his lie however. I think its interesting to observe things through love rather than law. We dont cheat on our wives because of love. If we thought that way then we would grow in love by meditating on that truth. If however we think in legalistic terms what do we learn?

 

[fhansen]

The new law. That sounds legalistic. I came to the conclusion that there is no law, there is just the knowledge of right and wrong, and the guidance of the spirit.. The law cannot ever be made perfect accept through the spirit. Paul says that we should not get drunk on wine but be filled with the spirit but that doesnt mean a person overcome with grief is wrong to get drunk. Perhaps getting drunk is not the best answer but it can happen to anyone. It just means that they need to work out their sorrow. God says its wrong to lie yet is it wrong to lie if it helps someone? There are times when lying isn't wrong. If it doesn't hurt anyone but instead helps someone, then how is it wrong? Abraham lied once, was it wrong to lie in that situation?

The New Law is actually a way of describing the difference between grace and legalism, between the Spirit and the letter, between the New and Old Covenants. Sometimes it’s called the Law of Love, the Law of Grace, the Law of the Gospel. Humans are still under obligation in any case, to obey God, but to obey out of love. This is His work in us, His work of justification/salvation, of placing His law on our hearts and writing it in our minds. The following is one of the teachings on it from our catechism. The old law was described by Scripture as holy, spiritual, and good, BTW, just unable to justify anyone since its merely the letter, reflecting Gods’ wisdom and will but lacking the power, by itself, to make anyone just or righteous. Only God, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’, can do that.

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity [love]: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

 

[fhansen]

Paul teaches us not to lie to one another. I see a good reason not to lie to each other, it destroys trust and that would not be love, it would cause someone to stumble. I don't think Abraham failed to love with his lie however. I think its interesting to observe things through love rather than law. We dont cheat on our wives because of love. If we thought that way then we would grow in love by meditating on that truth. If however we think in legalistic terms what do we learn?

The law was meant to be a teacher, as I'm sure you know. It actually teaches us that we're not holy, since we can't live up to it. But as even the justified person lacks perfection, the old law still serves to remind us of the standard unless we forget or have never been aware of it. Either way, as Augustine put it, "God wrote on tables of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

 

[Souldier]

in this scripture Jesus refers to "things" not a singular thing but things, so we can coclude that hes referring to multiple commands. He seems to be saying that his many commands are given to us so we can learn how to love one another.

John 15:17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

Romans 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Souldier]

The New Law is actually a way of describing the difference between grace and legalism, between the Spirit and the letter, between the New and Old Covenants. Sometimes it’s called the Law of Love, the Law of Grace, the Law of the Gospel. Humans are still under obligation in any case, to obey God, but to obey out of love. This is His work in us, His work of justification/salvation, of placing His law on our hearts and writing it in our minds. The following is one of the teachings on it from our catechism. The old law was described by Scripture as holy, spiritual, and good, BTW, just unable to justify anyone since its merely the letter, reflecting Gods’ wisdom and will but lacking the power, by itself, to make anyone just or righteous. Only God, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’, can do that.

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity [love]: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

I think the Lord and the apostle paul wants us to obey those things but they also want us to understand why. They want us to meditate on love. I see your point about the "law" of love. I guess i was only trying to protest the word law, it seems to distract away from the purpose of that law. You're correct however. Thank you.

 

[Souldier]

The law was meant to be a teacher, as I'm sure you know. It actually teaches us that we're not holy, since we can't live up to it. But as even the justified person lacks perfection, the old law still serves to remind us of the standard unless we forget or have never been aware of it. Either way, as Augustine put it, "God wrote on tables of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

Yes but im just not sure i agree that God gave us the Sabbath day. Anyway, i guess we will all just need to focus on love and let God be our judge concerning holy days. Thats what Paul seems to say, if i understand him correctly. We cant debate holy days all the time. It just doesnt seem to get anywhere.

 

[Souldier]

Its interesting that Jesus calls the disciples servants in chapter 13 but then calls them friends in chapter 15. He makes a distinction between the two titles. He seems to change this title after teaching them what he is doing. He still teaches servitude however, it is about love. In chapter 13 we see servants who serve each other as Christ served them. However in chapter 15 we see friends who love one another as Christ loved them.

John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

John 15:14 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.