Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

[Root of Jesse]

It's interesting.... because there is some HINT that JUDAS (only he) would be replaced. But actually, God never told the Apostles to replace him (at least that God chose to tell us in His Scripture).... it seems the apostles just assumed that.

Acts 1: During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said,
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“My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus.m
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He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry.
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n He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out.*
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This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language ‘Akeldama,’ that is, Field of Blood.
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For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his encampment become desolate,

and may no one dwell in it.’

And:

‘May another take his office.’o


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Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,
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beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection.”p
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So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias.
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Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
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to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.”
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* q Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

In any case, interesting there's no biblical evidence they EVER did it again. James, Paul, Peter - they all died withing the time recorded in NT books. And as far as God chose to tell us - NEVER was there a repeat of what they Apostles choose to do with Judas.... Not sure what to make of that, just seems curious - and perhaps important.

Paul's pastoral letters to Timothy and Titus...??? Even Paul went to the apostles to be ordained by them (the laying on of hands). That's what defines Apostolic Succession.

But in any case, there's NOTHING that says all of the 12 or 13 Apostles were INERRANT or INFALLIBLE or UNACCOUNTABLE or EXEMPT from truthfulness. And there is NOTHING that indicates that if they were, they could re-gift this to whomever they choose. And of course, Judas didn't chose Matthias.... and there is NOTHING in Scripture that says at Paul or Peter chose any successor to themselves and re-gifted any infallibility, inerrancy, absolute POWER to anyone. Much less to one specific, individual denomination.

Jesus told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them in "ALL TRUTH". And that same Holy Spirit guided them to choose Mattias.

But it would be just swell is there was some attempt to discuss the issue of this thread....


Thanks!


- Josiah

This is all relevant to the discussion because it's from them that doctrine and dogma proceeded.

 

[concretecamper]

It's interesting.... because there is some HINT that JUDAS (only he) would be replaced. But actually, God never told the Apostles to replace him (at least that God chose to tell us in His Scripture).... it seems the apostles just assumed that.

In any case, interesting there's no biblical evidence they EVER did it again. James, Paul, Peter - they all died withing the time recorded in NT books. And as far as God chose to tell us - NEVER was there a repeat of what they Apostles choose to do with Judas.... Not sure what to make of that, just seems curious - and perhaps important.

But in any case, there's NOTHING that says all of the 12 or 13 Apostles were INERRANT or INFALLIBLE or UNACCOUNTABLE or EXEMPT from truthfulness. And there is NOTHING that indicates that if they were, they could re-gift this to whomever they choose. And of course, Judas didn't chose Matthias.... and there is NOTHING in Scripture that says at Paul or Peter chose any successor to themselves and re-gifted any infallibility, inerrancy, absolute POWER to anyone. Much less to one specific, individual denomination.


But it would be just swell is there was some attempt to discuss the issue of this thread....


Thanks!


- Josiah

So your answer is man or God?

 

[concretecamper]

If the apostles endured beatings and stonings, why then doesn't the pope endure such things? HE is protected by bullet proof glass and body guards. Im not saying its wrong for him to stay behind the safety of bullet proof glass, im just questioning his role as Peters successor.

So your thinking is man or God?

 

[Souldier]

So your thinking is man or God?

Im not sure it matters much. My concern is only about whether the Pope is An apostle, if he is Peters successor.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Last time I checked there were still twelve Apostles of the Lamb and the Apostle Paul to the Gentiles, while Israel is blinded in part.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Im not sure it matters much. My concern is only about whether the Pope is An apostle, if he is Peters successor.

It does matter. What does Scripture say?

 

[SpyderByte]

It does matter. What does Scripture say?

It is utterly silent on papal succession.

 

[concretecamper]

Im not sure it matters much. My concern is only about whether the Pope is An apostle, if he is Peters successor.

What parts of scripture do matter much?

 

[Souldier]

.

 

[Souldier]

It does matter. What does Scripture say?

What parts of scripture do matter much?

I just dont see a need to understand if God chose the man or not. The apostles accepted him and thats good enough for me. THe man was a brother and teacher, i'll accept that. What about the Pope though? Is he an apostle? That's my question. Why does the Pope need bullet proof glass and body guards? The Apostles needed none of those things. Why doesn't he seem to have the signs of an apostle? Aren't there signs that follow true apostles?

Jesus told peter to put down his sword. Why then does the pope need armed body guards?

 

[Root of Jesse]

It is utterly silent on papal succession.

What does it say about Apostolic Succession? (Since the pope is a successor of an apostle, it actually does say something.) Chosen by man or God?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I just dont see a need to understand if God chose the man or not. The apostles accepted him and thats good enough for me. THe man was a brother and teacher, i'll accept that. What about the Pope though? Is he an apostle? That's my question. Why does the Pope need bullet proof glass and body guards? The Apostles needed none of those things. Why doesn't he seem to have the signs of an apostle? Aren't there signs that follow true apostles?

Jesus told peter to put down his sword. Why then does the pope need armed body guards?

Just as Matthias was chosen by the Apostles with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, others were chosen and appointed in the same fashion-by the Holy Spirit.
FWIW, many of the first 50 popes were martyred.

 

[Souldier]

What does it say about Apostolic Succession? (Since the pope is a successor of an apostle, it actually does say something.) Chosen by man or God?

A man is not necessarily an apostle just because someone says that he is. Are there not signs of an apostle that prove him to be an apostle? Also why does he need the things i mentioned before, if the apostles didnt need them?

 

[Souldier]

Just as Matthias was chosen by the Apostles with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, others were chosen and appointed in the same fashion-by the Holy Spirit.
FWIW, many of the first 50 popes were martyred.

Lets consider the signs of an apostle that Paul talked about. Lets consider how the apostles lived as well. Did they need armed body guards and armor? Does the Pope use those things? We dont actually know that these men were chosen in succession over the years going back to Peter. Its just what we are told to believe.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

There are twelve Apostles of the Lamb and one Apostle to the Gentiles.

Disclaimer: Only if you actually believe the holy scriptures.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok, perhaps you believe that whatever the Pope writes is infallible? If i misunderstand then please forgive me. If however that is what you believe then if he teaches something fallible then wouldn't it also be something new?

That's a tricky point - because in 1774 Pope Clement XIV declared "By all the fullness of Apostolic Power" that the Jesuit order was forever abolished.

I dont quite understand what you mean Bob.

Well there is the "desire" to introduce papal infallibility but given that they have to argue that "speaking in all the fullness of Apostolic Power" as did Clement XIV regarding the Jesuit order is NOT an example of Papal infallibility in the moral judgment of what is right and wrong to the point of condemning the Jesuit order - then the Popes also had no moral authority, or infallible insight to condemn the protesting Catholics of the Protestant Reformation. And the whole thing unravels.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Souldier]

Well there is the "desire" to introduce papal infallibility but given that they have to argue that "speaking in all the fullness of Apostolic Power" as did Clement XIV regarding the Jesuit order is NOT an example of Papal infallibility in the moral judgment of what is right and wrong to the point of condemning the Jesuit order - then the Popes also had no moral authority, or infallible insight to condemn the protesting Catholics of the Protestant Reformation. And the whole thing unravels.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks for explaining.

 

[concretecamper]

I just dont see a need to understand if God chose the man or not. The apostles accepted him and thats good enough for me. THe man was a brother and teacher, i'll accept that. What about the Pope though? Is he an apostle? That's my question. Why does the Pope need bullet proof glass and body guards? The Apostles needed none of those things. Why doesn't he seem to have the signs of an apostle? Aren't there signs that follow true apostles?

Jesus told peter to put down his sword. Why then does the pope need armed body guards?

So it does matter now however it is just that you don't need to understand? How can we determine what in scripture matters or is important to understand? I can care less about papal this or that right now...I just want to understand your thinking.

 

[Souldier]

So it does matter now however it is just that you don't need to understand? How can we determine what in scripture matters or is important to understand? I can care less about papal succession right now...I just want to understand your thinking.

I have pondered it and decided that i believe it doesnt matter, its not worth debating because i dont have any writings from that man that i must consider. I believe the apostles accepted him and thats good enough. If the question seems to become important in the future then perhaps i'll consider it again. More important to me and everyone else is the Pope's authority as Peters successor.

 

[Rick Otto]

Just as Matthias was chosen by the Apostles with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, others were chosen and appointed in the same fashion-by the Holy Spirit.
FWIW, many of the first 50 popes were martyred.

It is interesting how you forego explicit instruction to follow example on apostolic succession, but Paul's example of using only scripture to verify NT revelations with Bereans... I guess I'm confused how you choose between the two.