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Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

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Kristos

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Sorry - but I think your whole argument is essentially a strawman aimed at attacking Catholic "dogmas" that you disagree with. I'm not saying that I agree with all Catholic dogmas either, but this line of reasoning and attitude is not going anywhere useful because it's not a dialog - it's asserting a strawman - a rather transparent one in my opinion. I only say this because I think it's possible that your devotion to this strawman has actually distorted your own view of the truth. Anyway - take it for what it's worth - I'm not looking to argue my observation. That's what I see.
 
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Albion

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Sorry - but I think your whole argument is essentially a strawman aimed at attacking Catholic "dogmas" that you disagree with. I'm not saying that I agree with all Catholic dogmas either, but this line of reasoning and attitude is not going anywhere useful because it's not a dialog - it's asserting a strawman - a rather transparent one in my opinion.
Doesn't saying that obligate you to let the rest of in on what you are referring to? From what I can see, CalJosiah has been determined to say on topic and show a reason for relying upon Scripture instead of other sources of information that, yes, have been argued by others are equally authoritative. Where's your strawman in that?
 
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concretecamper

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"Scripture Catholic - DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT


Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8."

Wow! How soon we forget. We have been down this road in recent months here - http://www.christianforums.com/t7865348/

Please visit the thread if you would like to discuss these allegations in detail. As you will see on the thread, virtually none of the alleged NT citations from the DC actually are directly or even indirectly valid.

well, it seems it needs repeating to get through to some:D

....but it is really not the point of this thread..so have the last word if you must
 
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Root of Jesse

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WOW!!!!


2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.




I will side with the Bible in that debate.

Profitable for doctrine = doctrine? I don't think so.
 
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Root of Jesse

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That is quite correct. There are just the seven (more or less) authenticated and venerated skulls and portions of skulls of John the Baptist.

What is your take on the issue?

Not interested.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Please provide specific citations of Jesus acting on traditions that exist only in the deuterocanonical books.

Thank you.

Celebrating Hanukkah. Jesus celebrated it, but it exists nowhere in your Bible.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Strange knowing that Peter is the Apostle to the circumcision, meaning to the Jews.

You'd think that Paul would have been Rome's first Pope seeing that he is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and Rome being a Gentile church etc.

Strange stuff.

Why? Just because you think so, doesn't mean the Holy Spirit thinks so.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I also asked why the Roman church comes together to eat one another?

The church of God is the body of Christ. This could not be more clear in the NT.

The Roman Priest says a blessing on the little wafer and it supposedly turns into the body of Christ, right?

That's the church.

Are you all eating one another or something?

Lots of wrongness here...
 
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hedrick

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I think there’s some merit in which CJ has said, but I’d like to divorce it from the anti-Catholic polemic that has been inching into some of this discussion.

What is the power of the keys? Both commentaries I consulted (Word and Hermeneia) connect it to Jewish rabbinical practice and say that it is primarily the power to make authoritative interpretation, i.e. to determine what actions and permitted and what are not. It is not an arbitrary power to include or exclude people from the Kingdom. If applied to specific cases it can show itself as Church discipline.

To whom is it given? Because of the reference to Church in Mat 16:18, I assume that the authority given to Peter was intended for the Church and not just him personally. I don’t know many interpreters who claim it was just a personal grant. It’s kind of irrelevant whether Jesus was referring in the first place to Peter or his faith, since in either case the authority is intended for the Church.

However CJ’s point that Scripture doesn’t specify that the authority is passed to only some part of the Church seems quite sensible. The most obvious understanding would be that the authority passes to the entire Church. If the Church isn’t united, that is a significant problem with exercising it, but attempts to say that one’s own Church is the only one with this authority is unlikely to convince anyone else. That’s a mode of dealing with ecumenical relations that I think we’re in the process of recovering from.

What do we do in a situation where different communities make different decisions? I think we're subject to whatever community we are part of. Yes, people can shop around for communities whose judgement lets them to what they want, but remember that ultimately we have to face Jesus. Similarly, I am convinced that those of us in leadership will be asked to explain how we exercised the authority given to us.
 
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BobRyan

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WOW!!!!


2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.




I will side with the Bible in that debate.



That verse does not say the Bible contains doctrine but is profitable for such.

A distinction without a difference.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I will side with the Bible in that debate.



Profitable for doctrine = doctrine? I don't think so.

You have free will - you may choose not to see the point if you wish.

For the non-Catholic readers - this makes a lot of sense.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Standing Up

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Celebrating Hanukkah. Jesus celebrated it, but it exists nowhere in your Bible.

It's not clear that Christ observed/celebrated it, as much as He used it for a teaching occasion. This is similar to Paul later going to synagogues; not because he agreed, but that's where his audience was.
 
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B

bbbbbbb

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Celebrating Hanukkah. Jesus celebrated it, but it exists nowhere in your Bible.

Thanks. Synagogues also come to mind. They were an inter-testamental development, although not mentioned in the DC. Herod's temple, as well. The fact that these things appear in the NT which were obviously not to be found in the OT hardly elevates them to the level of dogma.
 
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Albion

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Celebrating Hanukkah. Jesus celebrated it, but it exists nowhere in your Bible.

It's not clear that Christ observed/celebrated it, as much as He used it for a teaching occasion. This is similar to Paul later going to synagogues; not because he agreed, but that's where his audience was.

Besides that, unless 'Root of Jesse' is maintaining that we Christians have an obligation to be practicing Jews, his example is meaningless.
 
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sunlover1

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How come "helper" Paul never wrote as much of a hello to Peter, or mention him being at Rome, the guy he was supposed to be helping, the guy was in charge of the Roman congregation?

We're told some interesting things in that little portion of Galatians 2;

Let's look again..

God accepteth no man’s person; for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: but contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (for he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.


Now, who was he that wrought effectually in Peter?

For what purpose?

So did Paul even realize he was contradicting what MoreCoffee would say a couple thousand years later?
Looks like Paul didn't know what he was talking about. ;)
Trying to keep up. :)
 
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ThatTrueLight

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Why? Just because you think so, doesn't mean the Holy Spirit thinks so.

Not at all, but rather because the holy scriptures come right out and tell us that the Lord wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision.

Galatians 2:8

That's only if the word of God matters though.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I think there’s some merit in which CJ has said


.


Are you indicating you are aware of this position - and it merits discussion?

Or that you are supporting the "spin" that is related in the opening post?

Or that you agree with MY response in the opening post to the position?




Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah
 
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MoreCoffee

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I think there’s some merit in which CJ has said, but I’d like to divorce it from the anti-Catholic polemic that has been inching into some of this discussion.

I too would wish to see a divorce between the substance of the argument and the polemic against catholicism.
What is the power of the keys? Both commentaries I consulted (Word and Hermeneia) connect it to Jewish rabbinical practice and say that it is primarily the power to make authoritative interpretation, i.e. to determine what actions and permitted and what are not. It is not an arbitrary power to include or exclude people from the Kingdom. If applied to specific cases it can show itself as Church discipline.

There is a link between what is said here in Matt 16:19 and what was said in the book of the prophet Isaiah regarding the keys of that ancient kingdom of Israel and its prime minister, Eliakim, who governed with the consent of the king (see Isaiah 22:15-22 and following). But you are right to point to the Jewish view in ancient times that the giving of keys was symbolic. The Cambridge bible for schools and colleges says, "To a Jew it would convey a definite meaning. He would think of the symbolic key given to a Scribe when admitted to his office, with which he was to open the treasury of the divine oracles. Peter was to be a Scribe in the kingdom of heaven. He has received authority to teach the truths of the kingdom." But it must be born in mind that the author of saint Matthew's gospel presents this story in an isolated place where the Lord speaks to his disciples of what the crowds say about him. So the keys are given in a context without a crowd present and no Jews other than those chosen by the Lord to be his disciples. The meaning then may not correspond to the Jewish custom of the time but to something more specific and something that the Lord has taught the disciples in the months and years he has spent instructing them about his own authority as king so it would be no surprise for them to hear these words and upon reflection see a fulfilment of the keys of David given to Eliakim with saint Peter being the anti-type of Eliakim. And the words following the giving of the keys point to binding and unbinding on earth with heavenly consequences. So it is that the Catholic Church has seen in these words the giving of authority to define both the faith and heresy as well as, in specific cases, to declare blessings and anathema according to a person's deeds and teachings.
To whom is it given? Because of the reference to Church in Mat 16:18, I assume that the authority given to Peter was intended for the Church and not just him personally. I don’t know many interpreters who claim it was just a personal grant. It’s kind of irrelevant whether Jesus was referring in the first place to Peter or his faith, since in either case the authority is intended for the Church.

The reasoning presented above seems well thought through but it also ignores the grammar of what is spoken by the Lord because he says "I will give thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven." by which only one person is signified and that person cannot be any other than saint Pater to whom this discourse is addressed. So speaking of the keys given to the church, as if the Lord stopped conversing to saint Peter addressing this remark to a plurality of persons or to an abstraction (as some see the church to be) cannot be right because the words are I will give thee and this can mean nothing about abstractions nor about pluralities of persons. It is singular and the one to whom it is addressed is singular; namely, saint Peter.
However CJ’s point that Scripture doesn’t specify that the authority is passed to only some part of the Church seems quite sensible. The most obvious understanding would be that the authority passes to the entire Church. If the Church isn’t united, that is a significant problem with exercising it, but attempts to say that one’s own Church is the only one with this authority is unlikely to convince anyone else. That’s a mode of dealing with ecumenical relations that I think we’re in the process of recovering from.

CJ's point seems sensible only if "I will give thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven." is taken as addressing the church and not as addressing one person but as my comment above indicates such seeming cannot be right because "I will give thee" is an exchange between persons ,one to one other, as the grammar demands.
What do we do in a situation where different communities make different decisions? I think we're subject to whatever community we are part of. Yes, people can shop around for communities whose judgement lets them to what they want, but remember that ultimately we have to face Jesus. Similarly, I am convinced that those of us in leadership will be asked to explain how we exercised the authority given to us.
 
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