Is science at odds with philosophy?

[Neogaia777]

There are a number of problems with this argument, but I'm going to try to stay focused on my original premise for the moment, that God is impotent.

None of Them are 100% completely impotent, etc, and One of them is not impotent at all, but has and/or already did already decide/determine/predetermine all, etc...

Theists often like to argue for the existence of God by using the fine tuning argument, which posits that if the fundamental constants undergirding the universe were even slightly different then we couldn't exist. The conclusion being that therefore there must be a designer. But this not only constrains the fundamental constants, but it constrains God as well. God had no choice in how to design the fundamental constants. Therefore He had no choice in how to create reality.

Well, I don't subscribe to that argument and I 100% disagree, etc...

It comes down to full omniscience, and having it fully from the very beginning, and the universe being 100% deterministic because of that from the beginning, etc...

Only one way it can all go, etc...

You can't really have choice if someone already knows how you are already going to choose and/or make a choice, etc...

And our choices are deterministic, etc...

As is everything else in the universe from the very beginning, etc...

And God the Father already knows/knew it all, and is the one who set all those original wheels in motion, and from even before that time, knew how it was all going to go, because He is the one who set all the original trajectories, and/or started it, or set all those original wheels in motion, etc, and knows/knew how it all would go, which is only one way it can go, from that time and from the beginning, and everything at all in-between until the very end of time, etc, because He a master mathematician, and it all can only ever go according to the way He ordered it, and/or predetermined it already, from that time, etc...

So just like the Euthyphro dilemma God doesn't decide what is true, rather God is constrained by what is true. And if He is constrained in what He can do then He's impotent.

This would depend on whether or not you are talking about God the Father, God the Son, or God the Spirit, etc...

Because God the Father has never ever been contained, or constrained, by anything, etc, He has just simply had no reason to interfere or intervene, from the beginning, down to it's very ending, and God the Son and God the Spirit are only constrained by what God the Father already prearranged or foreordained, just like we are, etc...

And God the Spirit and God the Son are here to show us the Father, for it's the one and only thing that One cannot do without other to do so, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Opdrey]

OK, whatever, but just think about what I just said, OK...

"Search your feelings, and you will know it to be true", etc...

God Bless!

Thanks for actually taking the time to think about what I said. Oh sorry, my mistake. You didn't seem to actually read a thing I wrote.

 

[Opdrey]

You make posts that are two feet in height,

Too many words. Guess it's OK if you just scream "This is so full of errors it isn't funny".

then evidently expect me to parse them; and I won't.

You did just fine with the one line telling me I'm wrong.

Just say it enough and it becomes true, eh?

 

[Opdrey]

You should know how I'm going to respond, before I respond.

I do. Thoughtlessly and without any self-examination.

I'm pretty thorough in what I believe, and how I arrive at those beliefs.

Hopefully not the same way you respond to people who disagree.

 

[Neogaia777]

Thanks for actually taking the time to think about what I said. Oh sorry, my mistake. You didn't seem to actually read a thing I wrote.

I read it, but I felt you needed to know some other things that were of greater consequence, etc...?

Or that maybe you hadn't considered before, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Opdrey]

I read it, but I felt you needed to know some other things that were of greater consequence, etc...?

You seem to hold your knowledge in such great esteem that need not even consider what others are saying.

That's great. I'm glad you have found perfected truth and all others are less than you. Perhaps one day I shall find perfected truth as well.

Then I can treat others' statements with the disrespect of simply ignoring what they say and assuming their thoughts are less than mine.

 

[Neogaia777]

You seem to hold your knowledge in such great esteem that need not even consider what others are saying.

That's great. I'm glad you have found perfected truth and all others are less than you. Perhaps one day I shall find perfected truth as well.

Then I can treat others' statements with the disrespect of simply ignoring what they say and assuming their thoughts are less than mine.

God Bless!

 

[partinobodycular]

It comes down to full omniscience, and having it fully from the very beginning, and the universe being 100% deterministic because of that from the beginning, etc...

Only one way it can all go, etc...

You can't really have choice if someone already knows how you are already going to choose and/or make a choice, etc...

And our choices are deterministic, etc...

As is everything else in the universe from the very beginning, etc...

And God the Father already knows/knew it all, and is the one who set all those original wheels in motion, and from even before that time, knew how it was all going to go, because He is the one who set all the original trajectories, and/or started it, or set all those original wheels in motion, etc, and knows/knew how it all would go, which is only one way it can go, from that time and from the beginning, and everything at all in-between until the very end of time, etc, because He a master mathematician, and it all can only ever go according to the way He ordered it, and/or predetermined it already, from that time, etc...

This is quite frustrating for me because there are so many assumptions in this that it's almost impossible to address them all without this discussion devolving into chaos.

The first one being the idea that foreknowledge equals deterministic. That's not necessarily true, and most theists actually hold to the opposing position that foreknowledge doesn't equal determinism. This is a position that I actually agree with, foreknowledge doesn't equal deterministic.

The second problem lies in reconciling determinism with free will. How can you have both? This has long been a philosophical conundrum.

The third problem lies in the premise that God set reality in motion from the beginning and thereafter never intervened. Here again the notion of free will renders that scenario impossible.

So I'm left not knowing how to address your post because there are so many assumptions that are mutually exclusive. It's impossible for me to address them all in any coherent manner, and trying to address them one at a time would most likely end up getting us nowhere.

So I'm left not knowing what to say except that you're free to believe whatever you want to.

 

[sjastro]

... but I show how I arrive at many of my beliefs as well:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

Since you want to regurgitate this nonsense, I will ask you again if you support the treatment of women as described in Deuteronomy 22:23 to Deuteronomy 22:26 and Exodus 20:17 so the Prime Directive of the Bible is not violated?

A simple yes or no will suffice or will this thread 'mysteriously' be shut down before you could respond as in the other thread.

 

[Neogaia777]

This is quite frustrating for me because there are so many assumptions in this that it's almost impossible to address them all without this discussion devolving into chaos.

The first one being the idea that foreknowledge equals deterministic. That's not necessarily true, and most theists actually hold to the opposing position that foreknowledge doesn't equal determinism. This is a position that I actually agree with, foreknowledge doesn't equal deterministic.

The second problem lies in reconciling determinism with free will. How can you have both? This has long been a philosophical conundrum.

The third problem lies in the premise that God set reality in motion from the beginning and thereafter never intervened. Here again the notion of free will renders that scenario impossible.

So I'm left not knowing how to address your post because there are so many assumptions that are mutually exclusive. It's impossible for me to address them all in any coherent manner, and trying to address them one at a time would most likely end up getting us nowhere.

So I'm left not knowing what to say except that you're free to believe whatever you want to.

I'll try to get back to you and try to be a little bit more clear later, OK?

God Bless!

 

[Opdrey]

God Bless!

Thanks for taking my points seriously enough to actually engage. Your witness for God is strong. If your words meet fertile ground it's all good. If someone bothers to respond to your points they will be simply dismissed.

Thanks again. I really appreciate it. There's literally nothing I like more than speaking at length about faith only to have the faithful act like I'm a moron unworthy of their response.

I am sure that is what God wants as well. Needn't soil your white robes with my dirt. Polish the crown and make sure to shine up the jewels.

 

[Neogaia777]

Thanks for taking my points seriously enough to actually engage. Your witness for God is strong. If your words meet fertile ground it's all good. If someone bothers to respond to your points they will be simply dismissed.

Thanks again. I really appreciate it. There's literally nothing I like more than speaking at length about faith only to have the faithful act like I'm a moron unworthy of their response.

I am sure that is what God wants as well. Needn't soil your white robes with my dirt. Polish the crown and make sure to shine up the jewels.

What the heck happened to or with you man...?

PM me please if you want to ever talk about it, OK...?

God Bless!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If a hermaneutic is a means of interpreting a text with justification (as per the dictionary) then it seems quite appropriate.

Yes, if you're referring to a more colloquial usage of the term rather than an academic one, then I guess I can marginally agree with you. Some people do tend to make up a lot of stuff when they all too casually leave interpretation to their own individual lights.

 

[Opdrey]

What the heck happened to or with you man...?

PM me please if you want to ever talk about it, OK...?

God Bless!

Let me explain it to you so you aren't confused.

I was having a conversation and you offered to help me get at the truth because clearly you had it and you patronizingly started with a bunch of questions on the nature of God.

I responded with a heartfelt response. I actually put my heart into the response. And you simply blew it off. You asked if I wanted to consider your questions more. And you didn't respond to any one single point I made.

Were my comments so VALUELESS to you that they didn't merit response? I responded to YOUR points.

I'm not going to PM you...because now I no longer care one whit what you think on any topic. Do you know why?

Read Luke 6:31 again. That will tell you all you need.

 

[Opdrey]

Yes, if you're referring to a more colloquial usage of the term

That was, indeed the case.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Opdrey

Look, I get it, you look around at all the suffering in the world, and maybe to you it's overwhelming, or maybe you are suffering or have suffered greatly yourself, or maybe someone you know or someone very close to you has, and all you could do was watch maybe...

Well, do you know that God the Spirit, or God who was God in the OT feels the same way right now, and maybe has felt that way for a very long, long time now, etc, and this isn't because He is impotent, but is because man's choice, has forced Him to take a back seat, etc, and all He can do is sit and watch right now as well, etc...

You talk about how He commanded genocide or whatever, etc, and how He maybe approved of some very bad things, and a lot of killing maybe in the OT, etc, but do you know this was because He was trying to use His power to put an ultimate end to all the pain and suffering we all go through and/or see or experience once and for all and for good, etc...?

But in the end, He had to learn that was not the Father's will, or at least, was not yet according to the way the Father had already foreordained it yet, etc, but He or that One, still needed suffering to continue for a time or a little while longer, etc...

But this is ultimately so we can all be completed and made perfect to the point to where we will not choose sin or evil anymore, which is the real root cause of all the pain and suffering, etc...

God the Spirit, or God in the OT, tried to end it prematurely, etc, but that was not the Father's will "yet", etc, but there will be an end to it one day, and one day there will no longer be anymore pain and suffering, etc, but for now we need to endure for the time being and keep the faith to the end, etc, because that's just how it is right now, but it will be over with very, very soon now I believe, so, just hang in there my friend, because some day very soon, all this pain and this suffering will go away, and you won't have to see it anymore, and it will be a distant memory, etc, OK...

God the Spirit feels the same way that we do right now, and the most difficult thing for Him to choose and do, was to not use His power to try and help us right now, until Jesus comes back from where the Father is and always was right now, etc, because then, that's when all the pain and suffering will finally come to end, etc, and I believe we are very, very close, or almost there my friend, so please hang in there, OK, because sometime very soon, this will all come to an end, etc, OK...

And please feel free to PM anytime whenever, etc, OK, and I promise I will listen, and very, very, much carefully pay attention to and actually hear what you are saying, and I will do my very best to respond with a heart full of great compassion and/or love and/or understanding, OK...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Let me explain it to you so you aren't confused.

I was having a conversation and you offered to help me get at the truth because clearly you had it and you patronizingly started with a bunch of questions on the nature of God.

I responded with a heartfelt response. I actually put my heart into the response. And you simply blew it off. You asked if I wanted to consider your questions more. And you didn't respond to any one single point I made.

Were my comments so VALUELESS to you that they didn't merit response? I responded to YOUR points.

I'm not going to PM you...because now I no longer care one whit what you think on any topic. Do you know why?

Read Luke 6:31 again. That will tell you all you need.

See my post to you just now above this one, OK...

I was working on it while you were working on yours just now, OK...

God Bless!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That was, indeed the case.

Ok. I see I've landed in the middle of spat. My bad!

... at least we all know that science isn't at odds with philosophy.

 

[partinobodycular]

Well, do you know that God the Spirit, or God who was God in the OT feels the same way right now, and maybe has felt that way for a very long, long time now, etc, and this isn't because He is impotent, but is because man's choice, has forced Him to take a back seat, etc, and all He can do is sit and watch right now as well, etc...

Excuse me for butting in, but this simply isn't possible. He can't just sit and watch while we and our free will determine the course of history. God had to deliberately and purposely direct it. Otherwise God had no guarantee that Moses would ever be born, or Isaac, or Abraham, or Mary, or anybody else for that matter, besides perhaps Christ Himself. If we truly have free will than God had no control over how history would play out.

Which means that you end up with only two choices. Either reality is deterministic, in which case we don't have free will, only the illusion of free will, or God is constantly tinkering with reality to keep it on His chosen path.

Which of those two do you suggest is true?

 

[AV1611VET]

Since you want to regurgitate this nonsense,

What 'nonsense'?

I will ask you again if you support the treatment of women as described in Deuteronomy 22:23 to Deuteronomy 22:26

Yes ... and the man too.

... and Exodus 20:17 ...

Yes.

As Adam Clarke puts it:

"This was an exceedingly wise and humane law, and must have operated powerfully against seduction and fornication; because the person who might feel inclined to take the advantage of a young woman knew that he must marry her, and give her a dowry, if her parents consented; and if they did not consent that their daughter should wed her seducer, in this case he was obliged to give her the full dowry which could have been demanded had she been still a virgin."