Is science at odds with philosophy?

Landon Caeli

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It's occured to me that science has led humanity on a path more in line with the study of facts, and proven things and such, and has led mankind toward the discouragement of philosophical thought. It seems that science has basically replaced philosophy.

Is it true that philosophy is ultimately outdated, pre-scientific thinking? Is philosophy "archaic" type thinking.?
 
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essentialsaltes

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No, they are two separate endeavors.

Science's turf is natural phenomena.

Like religion, if philosophy wants to tread on science's turf, it's likely to get its butt kicked.

And vice versa. However, in many cases philosophy and science can inform each other.
 
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Landon Caeli

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No, they are two separate endeavors.

Science's turf is natural phenomena.

Like religion, if philosophy wants to tread on science's turf, it's likely to get its butt kicked.

And vice versa. However, in many cases philosophy and science can inform each other.

Honestly, @essentialsaltes, you did cross my mind when creating this thread. :)

...I say that because certain posters, such as yourself, I've noticed, have a certain style, that tends to use links as proof that the knowledge being offered is factual... I think that's fantastic, but IMO, it does reflect a sort of science-minded tendency. :) With all due respect.

...My style is a little different, in that I prefer home-grown thought almost exclusively, but I have learned to use links, because I know it is expected much of the time.

To be clear, I appreciate all the different styles. And I do think each informs the other.
 
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Landon Caeli

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I wonder too, if there is some parallel between Bible-based Chriatianity and the advent of science... Because, where the more ancient Churches, like Orthodoxy and Catholicism stress a spirit influenced conscience/Heierarchy, the bible-based Churches tend to lean more toward textual "truths" - something more akin to "evidence".

..I wonder if there might have been a sort of influence there, considering the time frame of Protestantism was around the same time as the advent of modern science.

...And if true, we can see how different types of thinking blend into one another at the outer edges.
 
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Matt5

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Science, as it is practiced today, is in serious trouble. The following link is about the COVID-19 origin:

Former CDC director says he received death threats from fellow scientists for supporting lab leak theory

Note: The lab leak theory is looking more and more likely. If may have leaked from the Wuhan lab but the Americans were partially funding the gain-of-function research.

The actual problem is much more extensive than that: Science is Broken. Here is a short excerpt for a list I compiled:
  • "relentless pursuit of taxpayer funding has eliminated curiosity, basic competence, and scientific integrity in many fields."
  • "physics, economics, psychology, medicine, and geology are unable to explain over 90 percent of what we see"
  • "climate, demography, asset prices, and natural disasters—are minimally predictable."
  • "chronic inability to reproduce research findings."
  • "progress in developing better theory and forecasting capability has stagnated since the 1960s."
  • There is a "replication and reproducibility crisis."
Philosophy is probably harder to corrupt than science. So there are vested interests in pushing it out of the way.
 
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o_mlly

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It's occured to me that science has led humanity on a path more in line with the study of facts, and proven things and such, and has led mankind toward the discouragement of philosophical thought. It seems that science has basically replaced philosophy.

Is it true that philosophy is ultimately outdated, pre-scientific thinking? Is philosophy "archaic" type thinking.?
Science does not prove any of its hypothesis. Think of how many scientific theories held in the early parts of the 20th century are still held today. While science has done much to improve the material quality of our lives, all science remains in the realm of doubt.

Empirical science is based on inferential logic, ie., it looks at particulars and infers the general. As such science can only be probabilistic. The next better observation or more cogent reasoning applied to existing observations would improve upon the last inference but even the improved hypothesis would still remain only tentative.

Philosophy, on the other hand, deals in concepts and deductive logic rather than experiments and inferential logic. The conclusions of the philosopher are far more durable than those of the scientist. The precursors to scientists today were the natural philosophers of old. This branch of philosophy limited itself to find natural causes for observed effects, ie, the scientific method.

When the natural philosophers of old hit a brick wall with their experimental method, they would punt the problem back to philosophy's metaphysics department. Today, however, some so-called scientists who hit a brick wall with their experiments rather than report "we just don't know yet" casually slide into metaphysical analysis, but abandon the rational restraints used by meta-physicians, and cloak their imaginative claims as "science". In the past, the head of the philosophy department would call them out on that sleight-of-hand trick and order them back into their sandbox. Not so much today. The scientists have not replaced philosophy, as much as some have usurped and bastardized it.

This usurpation is especially true in the historiogarphical sciences (astronomers, geologists, archaeologists, paleontologists, geologists, historians, etc.) , less true in the empirical sciences. Because phenomena of the distant past are not open to observation and experiment, historiographers must attempt to reconstruct the events of the past and appeal to the principle of uniformity.
 
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Palmfever

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Metaphysics

One story is thus; The name was given c.70 B.C.E. by Andronicus of Rhodes, and was a reference to the customary ordering of the books, but it was misinterpreted by Latin writers as meaning "the science of what is beyond the physical."

Another story is someone came into a library in the 1st century and asked where Aristotle’s new book was located and was told it was beyond physics.

No the quest for deeper meaning is not dead or outdated.

“It is believed that time, or the measurement of events in the physical universe began some 15 billion years ago with an advent referred to as the “Big Bang”. Since science is the study of nature, it cannot address what existed prior to the natural universe.” Stephen Hawking states in his lecture, “The beginning of time”, that “The solar system can be extrapolated far beyond the four thousand and four years BC, suggested in the book of Genesis.”

The details of how God created this universe, I will never understand. He Did. To some the answer to that question is a life long pursuit, one I enjoy watching and reading about. Keep it up. To me however, the more important question is why. While I am curious about, and amazed by His work, why? The brilliant, dismissive and pseudo intellectual may seek no deeper meaning, the how is profoundly engaging. Fair enough, let’s leave them to it. Why, and for what purpose is the realm of philosophers.

Yet, we can’t get something from nothing. We may focus on what we see, and search for the answer in the material itself, but it came from somewhere, something, some It. With only the naked eye, the grandeur of the heavens, the plants, the sea, the plethora of life., evokes a sense of wonder. Some desire to reverse engineer, others desire to see beyond visible and cogent creation for, “All of creation speaks of a creator.” And there, beyond physics, is faith. Not opposed to knowledge, rather giving credit to the energy, the source which precedes the energy, mass and matter occupying our space, The visible and dark.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I wonder too, if there is some parallel between Bible-based Chriatianity and the advent of science... ... the bible-based Churches tend to lean more toward textual "truths" - something more akin to "evidence".

No, maybe you can make an analogy with textual criticism, but I don't see a strong connection to science. With an experiment, one can gather new evidence. With the Bible, once the text is set, there is no new 'evidence'.
 
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jayem

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It's occured to me that science has led humanity on a path more in line with the study of facts, and proven things and such, and has led mankind toward the discouragement of philosophical thought. It seems that science has basically replaced philosophy.

Is it true that philosophy is ultimately outdated, pre-scientific thinking? Is philosophy "archaic" type thinking.?

Science is appreciated because of its daughter, technology. Which has real-world practical value.

I wouldn’t say philosophy is outdated. But it’s definitely lagging behind. Unlike the above, it doesn’t make any money. :oldthumbsup:
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Philosophy, on the other hand, deals in concepts and deductive logic rather than experiments and inferential logic. The conclusions of the philosopher are far more durable than those of the scientist.
I can't agree. In my experience, there is as much, if not more, argument and uncertainty in philosophy as in the sciences. A major problem for philosophy is that, however impeccable the logic, its ideas and assumptions are often difficult or impossible to test.

Nevertheless, it is of great value in exploring ways to think about and act in the world, especially with regard to ethics. Philosophers of science have also informed much of current scientific methodology and are often years ahead of practicing scientists in that respect.
 
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SelfSim

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It's occured to me that science has led humanity on a path more in line with the study of facts, and proven things and such, and has led mankind toward the discouragement of philosophical thought. It seems that science has basically replaced philosophy.

Is it true that philosophy is ultimately outdated, pre-scientific thinking? Is philosophy "archaic" type thinking.?
Philosophy distinguishes for us, the different 'modes' our minds are capable of thinking in. Science 'grabs' anything useful for the specific purpose of testing, so it makes use of certain philosophical ideas. When philosophers run out of their own ideas, science won't just stop because of that.

No matter which way one looks at it, both Science and Philosophy are both products of a normal (healthy) thinking human mind .. and never something which stands independent of one.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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It's occured to me that science has led humanity on a path more in line with the study of facts, and proven things and such, and has led mankind toward the discouragement of philosophical thought. It seems that science has basically replaced philosophy.

Is it true that philosophy is ultimately outdated, pre-scientific thinking? Is philosophy "archaic" type thinking.?
Not if it is done with respect to reality as ever.
 
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Science is concerned with fact.

Philosophy is a search for truth.

Their fields overlap but seldom.

...

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power, we have guided missiles and misguided men."

--Martin Luther King Jr.
 
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Ophiolite

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Random thoughts:
  • Science uses the tools of philosophy.
  • People in general appear to be even more ignorant of philosophy than they are of science.
  • As an undergraduate I studied, as a minor, natural philosophy, or - as it is now known - physics.
  • If you think Thomas Khun was right about paradigm shifts, or Karl Popper notion of falsification is essential to good science, then you are following the guidelines of philosophers.
  • I view people who dismiss philosophy as misguided as those who declare "now you are just arguing semantics", to which I reply "Well, duh!"
 
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Gottservant

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It's occured to me that science has led humanity on a path more in line with the study of facts, and proven things and such, and has led mankind toward the discouragement of philosophical thought. It seems that science has basically replaced philosophy.

Is it true that philosophy is ultimately outdated, pre-scientific thinking? Is philosophy "archaic" type thinking.?

I don't think it can, personally (replace philosophy).

I asked Evolutionists in the Creation vs Evolution forum, whether they thought Evolution was half empty or half full - their response? "You don't know what you are talking about!"

Needless to say, the philosopher who invented that question would be turning in their grave!
 
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AV1611VET

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I asked Evolutionists in the Creation vs Evolution forum, whether they thought Evolution was half empty or half full - their response? "You don't know what you are talking about!"
Try riding a bike with just one link in its chain missing and see how far you get.

Evolutionists expect us not only to assume the link was there at one time, but that the bike is still being pedaled to its destination.
 
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public hermit

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I wonder too, if there is some parallel between Bible-based Chriatianity and the advent of science... Because, where the more ancient Churches, like Orthodoxy and Catholicism stress a spirit influenced conscience/Heierarchy, the bible-based Churches tend to lean more toward textual "truths" - something more akin to "evidence".

..I wonder if there might have been a sort of influence there, considering the time frame of Protestantism was around the same time as the advent of modern science.

...And if true, we can see how different types of thinking blend into one another at the outer edges.

I think your intuition here is hitting on something. Both Luther and Calvin rejected medieval scholastics, which was basically Aristotle interpreted in such a way as to preserve dogma. Likewise, rationalists (beginning with Descartes) rejected the same, including Aristotle's physics and metaphysics. So, in those centuries there is a similar shift happening across the board. IMO, the tensions between Xnty and science don't really start until Darwin+historical criticism, and even that doesn't really happen until the fundamentalists get their ill-informed hands on it.

I have to be honest, your OP question makes my head dizzy because there is just so much philosophy out there, even if we limit our scope to western philosophy. Or, even if we just consider philosophy today.

As far as current western philosophy, specifically analytic philosophy, most philosophers are well aware that how one does science and how one does philosophy are different ball games. Most analytic philosophers try to work within the bounds of current scientific understandings, and some philosophers deal specifically with issues concerning science, but the two are different things. The one exception being x-phi, which takes a specifically data driven approach to philosophical questions.

Experimental philosophy - Wikipedia

ETA: I failed to mention some aspects of Aristotle's thought were retained in modernity, particularly his comments on method for studying natural phenomena, such as observation first and classification, which were found in the Organon and the Prior and Posterior Analytics.
 
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durangodawood

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Try riding a bike with just one link in its chain missing and see how far you get...
Most bikes youd just close it with the master link and ride with a slightly shorter chain
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I asked Evolutionists in the Creation vs Evolution forum, whether they thought Evolution was half empty or half full - their response? "You don't know what you are talking about!"

Needless to say, the philosopher who invented that question would be turning in their grave!
Which philosopher was that?
 
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