Is Salvation instantenous or is it a process?

[Ignatius21]

In my opinion, definition of terms is what causes much of the misunderstanding. Although many of the terms are interchangeable, in some contexts in the Bible they carry unique understanding. Not all the gravies have the same flavor nor application. Sure, I could use chicken gravy on a steak ... and I have ... but it is not the same as using a proper sauce for proper meat. I probably would refer most of the division in Christendom on the doctrine of salvation to a sloppy application of these interchangeable definitions. We are diluting them by making them synonymous in every case instead of making certain we do not throw the baby out with bathwater by ignoring the unique value of each term. Like ... most of the readers have no idea which definition of 'love' in the English Bible is 'agape' and which is 'phileo'. But Eddie, this is a lot of work! My goodness, we have computers now, let's dig in to the text and get to work instead of taking everything for granted. For example. 1CO 16:22 If anyone does not love the Lord--a curse be on him. Come, O Lord! Strong verse! So (after the initial shudder) we get theological and recite doctrines about loving God with all your heart, soul and mind ... But wait a minute ... 'love' in this text is 'phileo'. :o It means brotherly, human love. This means that unless we get off our high horse and love Jesus ALSO as a human being, a brother, a relative - we are under a curse despite of our knowledge. Yes, we agree that salvation is progressive and it is the work of God. And we grow in salvation. And changing diapers ... is certainly a great analogy for obedience. I also agree with the marriage analogy, but not completely. Here is why. I believe God started working on us from the point of our infant baptism. Baptism is a form of grace. The Bible plainly teaches there is nothing symbolic in Baptism. When the water and the word unite - things happen. I cannot fully explain what exactly happens, but when the Natural water unite with the Supernatural word - things definitely happen. In the case of Protestants who do not baptize their children, they dedicate. It is not the same, but the Lord works in His timing, so who am I to judge. I cannot fully see the analogy of Marriage concerning salvation because the Lord started saving us even before we realize He is with us. For example, in case of Israel, Ezekiel 16, He started salvation before Israel matured ... EZE 16:6 " `Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, "Live!" 7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare. Later on, the Lord passed by again and then married her. EZE 16:8 " `Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine. Then, when she became an adulteress and a prostitute, He gave her a certificate of divorce ... JER 3:6 ..."Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Marriage starts when the two are in agreement to marry. Salvation however, in my opinion, starts with God initiating it. I think the Bible stresses the subjective part of the salvation ... cannot avoid that pesky doctrine of obedience ... and we are often stressing the objective parts ... well, because it is much easier than obedience ... Loving my neighbor? :o:o ... my goodness, I do not even love my poster. 30th anniversary is a great analogy of faith perfected in works. Thanks, Ed

Your point about the imperfection of the marriage analogy is well-taken. Any analogy will break if you bend it too much

I still think marriage is an apt metaphor. If you like, we can consider the example of infant baptism using another prominent biblical metaphor: adoption.

Really, the pattern is the same.

1. Initial belief -> Being adopted, having the objective status of "son" conferred upon you by God
2. Continues believing (does the everyday things in the light of Christ) -> Continues loving (grows up, bodily and spiritually, learning to love his adoptive father as he is loved by Him)
3. Obeys (starts applying teachings he would not normally do) -> Obeys (first obeys by rote...then obeys out of fear of punishment...then obeys from hope of reward...matures to the point of obeying simply because it brings him joy to work out his love for his Father, by being obedient to His will)

On that last point, the Fathers (St. John Cassian comes to mind) identified those stages of Christian maturity (fear of hell, hope of reward, love of Christ).

So...what is the point of origin? Adoption and sonship. What is the ultimate end goal? Well...adoption and sonship...and possession of the promised inheritance!

In the objective sense, the adopted son is no more, and no less, a son when he's a helpless infant, than he is when he's fully grown and has come into his Father's inheritance. In the subjective sense, he's grown tremendously.

Again, analogies are always limited. But in both marriage and adoption, we have that same pattern of being both instantaneous and gradual.

I share your conviction that "something really happens" in baptism. I like Lutherans I can't see how Scripture could be any clearer on the matter. And I believe that's why so many terms were virtual synonyms for it...like enlightenment, regeneration, justification, sanctification, cleansing, purification, etc.

Another Orthodox prayer from the Liturgy of Baptism, after the rite is completed but before the anointing with oil:

You are baptized; you are justified; you are illuminated; you are anointed with the Holy Myrrh, you are hallowed; you are washed clean, in the Name of Father, and of Son, and of Holy Spirit. Amen.

 

[extraordinary]

JAS 2:
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Yes ... To be or not to be, that is the question!
That is ... Shall I be righteous, or unrighteous?
Or ... Shall I be wise enough to get rid of my sin?

JAS 1:
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
.

 

[Edial]

Yes ... To be or not to be, that is the question!
That is ... Shall I be righteous, or unrighteous?
Or ... Shall I be wise enough to get rid of my sin?

JAS 1:
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
.

I would love to understand what you mean by this.

If you are implying that by doing works I forget what Christ has done for us, it is not so.

Can you please clarify?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[extraordinary]

Yes ... To be or not to be, that is the question!
That is ... Shall I be righteous, or unrighteous?
Or ... Shall I be wise enough to get rid of my sin?
JAS 1:
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

I would love to understand what you mean by this.
If you are implying that by doing works I forget what Christ has done for us, it is not so.
Can you please clarify?

Did I say anything about forgetting what Christ has done for us?
IMO, salvation is an on-going co-operative effort between God and us.
God has desired this co-operation all throughout the whole Bible.

For our part, I point you to 2 recent threads:
Jesus, John, Paul, and Peter all preached righteousness!
Yes, your salvation is very conditional indeed
.

 

[Steeno7]

Did I say anything about forgetting what Christ has done for us?
IMO, salvation is an on-going co-operative effort between God and us.
God has desired this co-operation all throughout the whole Bible.

Kinda like we are co-redeemers with Christ, eh? So we get half of the credit for our salvation then? Cool.

 

[stan1953]

Kinda like we are co-redeemers with Christ, eh? So we get half of the credit for our salvation then? Cool.

All facetiousness aside, the ONLY part we play in salvation is believing and accepting God's provision. That is done by subjugating our will to His.
The only thing we can boast about is what God has and will do in our lives, IF we submit to Him and obey Him.

1 Cor 2:8-10
None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written:
What eye did not see and ear did not hear,
and what never entered the human mind—
God prepared this for those who love Him.
Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

 

[Steeno7]

All facetiousness aside, the ONLY part we play in salvation is believing and accepting God's provision. That is done by subjugating our will to His.
The only thing we can boast about is what God has and will do in our lives, IF we submit to Him and obey Him.

1 Cor 2:8-10
None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written:
What eye did not see and ear did not hear,
and what never entered the human mind—
God prepared this for those who love Him.
Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

If it's about your submitting and obeying, why can't you boast about that?

 

[stan1953]

If it's about your submitting and obeying, why can't you boast about that?

Because scriptures teaches us not to. Paul said he COULD boast, but that all he WOULD boast about was what Jesus had done for Him. That is the humility Jesus had and is what we should emulate.

 

[Steeno7]

Because scriptures teaches us not to. Paul said he COULD boast, but that all he WOULD boast about was what Jesus had done for Him. That is the humility Jesus had and is what we should emulate.

No, scripture tells you, you have nothing to boast about. But if it is, as you say, about your submitting and obeying, you would have something to boast about.

 

[stan1953]

No, scripture tells you, you have nothing to boast about. But if it is, as you say, about your submitting and obeying, you would have something to boast about.

I suggest you read Rom 15:16-18 , 1 Cor 1:30-31 and 2 Cor 12:5-7

Clearly we can boast but are instructed not to, for very obvious reasons.

 

[Steeno7]

I suggest you read Rom 15:16-18 , 1 Cor 1:30-31 and 2 Cor 12:5-7

Clearly we can boast but are instructed not to, for very obvious reasons.

No, clearly we have absolutely nothing to boast about before God. Read, Rom. 3:27, 4:2, and Eph. 2:9.

 

[stan1953]

No, clearly we have absolutely nothing to boast about before God. Read, Rom. 3:27, 4:2, and Eph. 2:9.

You obviously didn't read the verses I gave you, and come back with verses that say we can't boast about works. Of course not. Works was under the LAW. The boasting I referred to was under faith, and we are still told NOT to boast even though we may have good reason to. Throwing scripture at scripture OUT of context does not give you much credulity.
The point is to find the convergence for all the scripture you read and see where it takes you. You ignore whatever scripture tells you different from your dogmatic POV.

 

[Steeno7]

You obviously didn't read the verses I gave you, and come back with verses that say we can't boast about works. Of course not. Works was under the LAW. The boasting I referred to was under faith, and we are still told NOT to boast even though we may have good reason to. Throwing scripture at scripture OUT of context does not give you much credulity.
The point is to find the convergence for all the scripture you read and see where it takes you. You ignore whatever scripture tells you different from your dogmatic POV.

It has never been whether you 'should' boast. It is about your submitting and obeying being something you "could" boast about.

 

[extraordinary]

It is about your submitting and obeying being something you "could" boast about.

It is about your kind of people who find many excuses for not trusting the Scriptures.
For example ...
IF you obey Jesus, He is the author of your eternal salvation … Heb 5:9

There must be 100 verses which instruct us what we are to do, but you complain:
"If we do them, we could boast about doing them."
.

 

[Edial]

Actually it was meant to comfort those who thought their fathers and the prophets would not receive the Messiah. James taught their faith/belief in what God promised is what kept them.

Then what was meant was not what he said and this is unlikely.
James is not a comforting type of a writer.
He actually started off by saying something like "You foolish man, do you needs evidence that we are justified by what we do? And then he plainly stated that a person is justified by what he does and not necessarily by what he says.

The seal is the Holy Spirit that we are baptized with AFTER salvation.

Yes, as in Ephesians 1.
Believing includes obedience and practicing of obedience and that includes doing that what I would not normally do.
Obedience is that pesky condition that we try to avoid.
(I am not referring to you, just saying so in general )

I agree, and Jesus showed very clearly that LOVE is a real signifier of a person's faith, but not the only one. Actions are involved as well.

And according to Christ, love and action come together.

He said someplace "If you love me you would do what I command ... if you do not love me you would not do what I command".

Love without action is like giving compliments.

In my opinion.

 

[Steeno7]

It is about your kind of people who find many excuses for not trusting the Scriptures.
For example ...
IF you obey Jesus, He is the author of your eternal salvation … Heb 5:9

There must be 100 verses which instruct us what we are to do, but you complain:
"If we do them, we could boast about doing them."
.

Well, of course, that has nothing to do with anything. We do not trust "scripture". We trust the living Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ. And those who are trusting Him, living by faith in Him, are the only ones who are being obedient to Him.

 

[stan1953]

Then what was meant was not what he said and this is unlikely.
James is not a comforting type of a writer.
He actually started off by saying something like "You foolish man, do you needs evidence that we are justified by what we do? And then he plainly stated that a person is justified by what he does and not necessarily by what he says.

Actually I was referring to the common saying that was used throughout the NT, not just what James said.
The point James was making is that Abraham's righteousness/justification, come NOT just by believing but by also obeying or DOING what God told him and tells us to do. This is getting a tad off track, because salvation is before that, but James was clearly dealing with those who purported to be Christian but they did NOT demonstrate as much. Alluding to Abraham, who would be unassailable in the Jewish mind, James was able to show to the Jews, who he knew were not actually Christians, that their actions spoke much louder than their words, and demonstrated they were NOT of that faith.

Yes, as in Ephesians 1.
Believing includes obedience and practicing of obedience and that includes doing that what I would not normally do.
Obedience is that pesky condition that we try to avoid.
(I am not referring to you, just saying so in general )

Yes a small matter many seem to avoid.
I knew you were not referring to me.

And according to Christ, love and action come together.
He said someplace "If you love me you would do what I command ... if you do not love me you would not do what I command".
Love without action is like giving compliments.
In my opinion.

Yes that is what He said, PLUS it shows we are Christians.
( and no I don't love you )

 

[Edial]

... ( and no I don't love you )

Whew ... that was a close one.

 

[stan1953]

Whew ... that was a close one.

 

[extraordinary]

James is not a comforting type of a writer.
He actually started off by saying something like
"You foolish man, do you need evidence that we are justified by what we do?"
And then he plainly stated that a person is justified by what he does and not necessarily by what he says.

Paul IS a comforting type of a writer, although
he actually started off Romans 6 by saying something like
“You idiots. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

And later, he repeated the charge ...
“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!”

It seems that this just might be the main topic of Romans 6.
Especially when he says 3 times in the chapter:
sin results in spiritual death (for everyone ... gee, even the Roman Christians)!

"Oh, but this couldn't possibly be what Romans 6 is teaching!"
Wanna bet? ... It's the most important thing being taught. [FONT=&quot].
.
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