Is salvation conditional?

[Just_a_Joe]

Just,

Why don't you take a read of, Can People Who Have Never Heard of Jesus Be Saved? (Christian Post)?

Wycliffe Bible Translators tell us that there are approximately 1,800 languages in the world that do not have a Bible in those languages (source).

All people need the Gospel proclaimed. However, what do people do with the evidence of God in creation? They suppress the truth through their unrighteousness (Rom 1:16 ESV).

Oz

That article doesn't answer anything, but confuses things even more.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Well. I don't agree. Adam doesn't matter to me. The Bible says children do not bare responsibility for the sins of their parents (anscestors).

True and that the children shall not be put to death for the sins of fathers, but that every man shall be put to death for his own sin," (Deuteronomy 24:16; 24:16; 2 Kings 14:5,6; 2 Chronicles 25:4; Jeremiah 31:29,30; Ezekiel 18:20)is one of the most abundantly affirmed statements of Scripture, rightly understood as referring to actually being punished for the sins of their father.

For God does visit "the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Exodus 34:7) in the sense of suffering due to their choices, which is a punishment upon the fathers that sinned.

But no one will face the 2nd death because they are punished for what someone else did, for instead this judgment is expressly stated to be according to their own works. (Revelation 20:11--15) and in relation to the degree and manner of grace and light given. (Luke. 10:10-15)

Even if a person never heard of Christ yet in essence they have rejected Him by rejecting the light they did have, and Christ is the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9)

And even if a soul is not granted repentance, yet they are justly condemned because they have chosen to sin when they did not have to, and will be judged according to the choices they could make and did, not for their failure to do what they could not.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (Romans 1:21-22)

"And being born sinful and destined to hell because of it is not a choice. It's a default state."

True, and thus, rather then being condemned due to what they were not personally culpable for (Adam's sin) or had no choice to do (sin as a result), and no ability to escape it (repent and believe the gospel), the lost are condemned for what they chose to do, although they could have chosen the alternative.

For while man is spiritually dead and inevitably will sin, the lost can still choose to sin and can resist doing so to a significant degree (although choices can result in being delivered over to sin), and it is this choice that the lost are condemned for - and in accordance with the degree of light and grace given - versus merely having a sinful nature or for what they had no hand in doing, or for what they were not able to resist or chose thru no fault of their own.

The lost are condemned because God has given them light, which they rejected:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)

This foolish choice of rejecting the degree of light the lost had resulted in them become darkened :
Because that, when they knew [perceived] God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21)

They thus become fools, exchanging darkness for light, and changed their perception of God accordingly:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:22,23)

Which resulted in God delivering them over to gross lusts and behavior:
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 1:24-25)

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Romans 1:26-27)

We see this today in America as a whole, with a link btwn worship of nature and homosexual fornication, and its consequences.

This choice to reject the light they had resulted in this deliverance unto darkness and degradation:
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers... (Romans 1:28-29)

And which is in accordance with the principle the Lord taught:
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. (John 12:35-36)

And,
we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. (Romans 2:2)

Thus while man by nature is sinful, yet rather than being condemned for ignorance, or for the sins of others, or for what they had no other choice to do, the lost are condemned for what they could and did choose to do, rejecting the light they had in favor of deception, and then acting in accordance with it. They became foolish, and thus acted as fools.

For although the lost are spiritually dead, and born with a sinful nature, and God must grant salvific grace to the elect, yet the lost yet have an basic innate sense of right from wrong, and thus can "do by nature [the] things contained in the law," (Romans 2:14) or reject this light and act accordingly. And it is this choice, and in relation to the degree of light and grace given, that the lost are condemned for.

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (Matthew 11:20-23)

The inhabitants of both Tyre, Sidon and Sodom, and of Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum are justly condemned for their sins, even though in the former 3 locales greater grace could have worked repentance, but which God owes no one, esp. to such proud rejectors of light and lovers of sin.

Yet Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum were more accountable and thus their judgment more severe due to their sins in accordance with the greater degree of light and grace they were given.

In contrast,
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalms 34:18)

It is these you find the Lord Jesus as their savior, and thus, being saved on His expense and account, follow Him:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Well, I understand. I just shared my honest opinion. It's a little strange to me that one moment God is super angry with you wanting to send you to a place of eternal torment or separation or annihilation. Another moment suddenly only because you prayed a prayer or performed a rite or seemingly believed in something, He's suddenly happy with you and willing to gift you pleasures of heaven. Just really simplistic and impulsive, to my understanding. Just kind of very bizarre idea, to me personally.

So you are standing before a judge with a list of capital offenses so long that it flows out the door, and are facing with concurrent sentences, but the court allows justice to be satisfied if an innocent and righteous person, who has faced and overcome every manner of temptation which you yielded to in committing your crimes, to be charged with your guilty record. And in light of his exceeding virtue, his horrible manner of death as a scapegoat would take the place of your sentencing and allow your record to be expunged, and you to go free.

If, that is, you choose to believe in this scapegoat to save you, and which belief in him thus requires repentance on your part and will result in following Him. Who in reality does not stay in the grave, but due to his exceeding virtue death could not keep him bound but who rose alive from the grave.

But to which you would object? Why?

I would think that any kind of reform of soul would require at least some time. Like one of the 2 robbers who were crucified together with Christ, - just a repentance and admission of Jesus's innocence resulted in his "verily being today in paradise"? The whole life of violence and sin doesn't matter? Just one little act and that's it? What an illogical way out.

See above. That one little act of faith in the One who was mankind's sinless scapegoat atonement signified repentance and a heart that would act accordingly, although that is not what procured his salvation, while what would be illogical would be to reject this "so great salvation," as so great a price, for so great an eternity, by the great God and our Savior.

If you were dying of a diseases you obtained due to sinful foolish behavior, and your mother died in supplying a blood transfusion that would save you, but which required contrite repentance on your part to receive it, would it be logical to refuse it?

And then we have the kindest the bravest the most selfless people who did not do it, welcome to hell.

Wrong. No good, selfless people go to Hell. Only culpable guilty sinners. I have yet to know of any morally capable souls who were anything but the latter. You may perhaps sometimes do selfless acts, but you will also do selfish things.

Then we have the billions upon billions of people who have not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. They simply haven't got a chance.

Which will be judged according to the light they have, and which they violate, which in essence is rejecting Christ.

This idea of a quick one moment salvation through a specific method, to me sounds more like selling a ticket to heaven in exchange for blind loyalty.

No, it is not because of any promised loyalty, but on account of the one who believe in and the work that He did. But Biblical faith is only that which effects obedience, and repentance when convicted of so not doing so.

The idea of God's judgement of all souls without exception is a more logical and sound idea to me. Like in the ancient Egypt or in some denominations of Christianity. No matter what you believed in. No matter which prayers you prayed or which names you called upon. All your deeds are weighed on scales to determine if your good side overweighs the bad. Thus, the judgement. Very just. Very straightforward.

Which means you may be damned by a 1/4 of a gram. And as while many people may do some nice things sometimes, most do far more evil than good in heart and in deed.

However even in secular courts the good things one does will not pay for the crimes he did, although such many result in a lighter sentence, and likewise the degree of eternal punishment is according to what one did in relation to the degree of light and grace given.

But what is needed is a perfect scapegoat and atonement, which is what God provided on His own expense and account. Why refuse it?

In a way similar to Islam, as soon as you recite the Shahada, you are a paradise bound submitted person (muslim). Same idea.

No, it is not. The distant deity of Islam is not the One of Scripture who came down from Heaven in the person of Christ, and sweated like us and experienced our pain, and every type of temptation, yet without sin, and then became out scapegoat atonement, offering salvation on His expense and account, for those who repent and believe. And who thus will overall seek to follow Him.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

We no more work out our own salvation than we worked to be washed from our sins by believing, which is a choice enabled and motivated by God, to His glory.

Then why does the SCRIPTURE say... "FAITH without works is DEAD" ? (James 2:14-26).

There simply is no contradiction. Man makes a response both in believing on the Lord Jesus for salvation and in following Him, but neither is what procures salvation, and the credit for both truly belongs to God.

Man could not and would not believe on the Lord Jesus or follow Him unless God gave him life, and breath, and all good things he has, (Acts 17:25) and convicted him, (Jn. 16:8) drew him, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32) opened his heart, (Acts 16:14) and granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and gave faith, (Eph. 2:8,9) and then worked in him both to will and to do of His good pleasure the works He commands them to do. (Phil. 2:13; Eph. 2:10)

Thus man owes to God all things, while man is guilty and rightly damned for resisting God contrary to the level of grace given him, (Prov. 1:20-31; Lk. 10:13; 12:48; Rv. 20:11-15) so that man cannot not claim he actually deserves anything but varying degrees of damnation, but that under grace — which denotes unmerited favor — God has chosen to reward faith, (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of its effects.
Which means that God justifies man without the merit of any works, which is what Romans 4:1-7ff teaches, with “works of the law” including all systems of actually obtaining salvation on the basis of one's works actually meriting it, “for, if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21) yet works justify man as being a believer. "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith [such as effects no works] save him?" (James 2:14) "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18) "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."(James 2:24)

Thus the penitent publican and the contrite criminal, both of whom abased themselves as damned and destitute sinner and cast all their faith upon the mercy of God (which ultimately is Christ), were justified, and as such could go directly to be with the Lord at death, (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff; 1Thess. 4:17; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) even before they did any manifest works of faith. But works justify one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded under grace for such, (Mt. 25:30-40; Rv. 3:4) though only because God has decided to reward man for what He Himself is actually worthy to be credited for. Providing a lifeboat on s river headed over Niagra Falls, and motivating a otherwise senseless frolicking swimmer to chose to get in it, and lifting him into it, and then enabling and motivating him to row, and then rewarding him for the responses, hardly makes the recipient worthy of actual credit.

 

[OzSpen]

That article doesn't answer anything, but confuses things even more.

Just,

It's a very clear article. There is salvation in nobody else but Jesus Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).

That article is crystal clear about the need to proclaim the Gospel to unbelievers so that they might be saved. The article concludes with these words:

With more than 2 billion people having little to no access to the Gospel, Greear said the Church can either deny the truth, ignore it or embrace it and allow God to use them to bring salvation to the nations.

"The idea that God will be out there preaching the Gospel Himself to lost nations and ... He'll get it done on his own so we can go about our lives playing with our toys .... and messing around in church is a convenient fiction! The inconvenient truth is that if people in the world are to hear the Gospel, we the Church are the only ones that can preach it to them."

In his letter to the 12-year-old girl, Piper made the same conclusion.

"I don't think the Bible teaches that people can be saved without hearing the Gospel," he wrote. "[L]et's pray for missionaries and ask God if maybe we should be one. The world really needs more people to tell all the lost people in the world about Jesus and the amazing good news that he died for sinners so that whoever believes will be saved."

Seems to me that you are the one not wanting to see the obvious of what Scripture states. In case you have further doubts, Rom 10:9-11 (NIV):

if you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, ‘Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.’

Whose going to proclaim that message? Rom 10:14 (NIV) is crystal clear: 'How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?'

There is no salvation for anyone who does not hear the Gospel and respond in faith to Jesus. I don't think you want to hear that truth.

Oz

 

[stephen583]

Humm... Solidarnosc was in Poland. How did it topple the USSR? Maybe we talk about other, secretive influence of the RCC not open and thus known to public?

Headline from Time Magazine September 1988. "Eastern Europe Erupts In Arc of Unrest As Young Activists Demand Reform".

Vatican support for the Solidarity Movement in Poland and Lech Walesa was by no means a secret. At very nearly every public appearance, Walesa was accompanied by RCC priests. Shoulder to shoulder in some photographs from the period. Through this close public association, the RCC made it unmistakably clear to Moscow any attack on Walesa would constitute a direct attack on the RCC as well. This strong RCC support for Walesa was of great concern and a major source of political and military paralysis in Moscow.

Although thousands of Soviet tanks and troops were amassed on the Polish border during the unrest in Poland, Soviet forces never stormed the country to restore order, as they did during the earlier uprisings in East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Events prophesied in the Book of Daniel where three kings are subdued, (Daniel 7:8, 7:20 and 24).

 

[ToBeLoved]

Headline from Time Magazine September 1988. "Eastern Europe Erupts In Arc of Unrest As Young Activists Demand Reform".

Vatican support for the Solidarity Movement in Poland and Lech Walesa was by no means a secret. At very nearly every public appearance, Walesa was accompanied by RCC priests. Shoulder to shoulder in some photographs from the period. Through this close public association, the RCC made it unmistakably clear to Moscow any attack on Walesa would constitute a direct attack on the RCC as well. This strong RCC support for Walesa was of great concern and a major source of political and military paralysis in Moscow.

Although thousands of Soviet tanks and troops were amassed on the Polish border during the unrest in Poland, Soviet forces never stormed the country to restore order, as they did during the earlier uprisings in East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Events prophesied in the Book of Daniel.

Would you guys mind creating a new thread for this topic?

It is just not interesting to everyone else here and throws the thread off topic,

 

[stephen583]

Would you guys mind creating a new thread for this topic?

It is just not interesting to everyone else here and throws the thread off topic, googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1474449713049-1'); });

Political non-involvement by Christianity in "worldly" government is very much a "condition of salvation". There is no such thing as "Militant" Christianity or "Political" Christianity found anywhere in the Gospel Christ. So although you may find the subject boring, It is nevertheless a basic tenant of Christianity, as stated in (1 John 2:15) and is therefore appropriate to the subject of this particular thread.

 

[stephen583]

Religious financial agenda = Compromise, No Agenda = No Compromise.

Agreed. What do you imagine the response would have been if the Apostle Paul announced to the other disciples he was going to collect money to buy himself a thousand dollar suit of clothes and put himself on a million dollar a year salary (like some evangelical tele-evangelists today) ? At the very least, I imagine he would have been thrown off the walls of Jerusalem head first by the disciples, instead of being lowered down the wall in a basket. Christ probably would have also had to blind him a second time.

 

[stephen583]

I know some will find this "off topic" and "boring" as well, but anybody remember the story of Ananias and Sapphira found in Acts 5:3 ? Apparently the couple decided to become Christians and join the Christian community camped outside Jerusalem after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. They sold their home and all their possessions and made a sizable contribution to the community, except they also decided to secretly stash some of their treasure in a hiding place, just in case the whole Christianity thing didn't work out.

When one of the disciples learned of the ruse through a vision, they were both confronted about the subterfuge, which the couple staunchly denied. As a result, the Holy Spirit immediately struck both Ananias and Sapphira stone cold DEAD for lying to God.

Compare the story of Ananias to evangelical preachers today, wearing thousand dollar suits, being chauffeured around in Lincoln Town cars, being guarded by paid security, while paying themselves million dollar salaries and living in luxurious mansions. The financial machinations and misappropriation of money by the Vatican clergy is no less scandalous.

Seems nowadays, no one even bothers to hide their disbelief and greed anymore.

 

[Hallstone]

Agreed. What do you imagine the response would have been if the Apostle Paul announced to the other disciples he was going to collect money to buy himself a thousand dollar suit of clothes and put himself on a million dollar a year salary (like some evangelical tele-evangelists today) ? At the very least, I imagine he would have been thrown off the walls of Jerusalem head first by the disciples, instead of being lowered down the wall in a basket. Christ probably would have also had to blind him a second time.

Yep, Paul had to relearn almost everything he had learned before he met Christ, he became a wonderful example for us of purity, and poverty all the while working hard with his hands and preaching the word, an example many of the religious people should follow now, If people do not agree with some of Paul's writings they must realize that even Peter confirmed Paul when he equated Paul's writings with 'the rest of the scriptures'.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Headline from Time Magazine September 1988. "Eastern Europe Erupts In Arc of Unrest As Young Activists Demand Reform".

Vatican support for the Solidarity Movement in Poland and Lech Walesa was by no means a secret. At very nearly every public appearance, Walesa was accompanied by RCC priests. Shoulder to shoulder in some photographs from the period. Through this close public association, the RCC made it unmistakably clear to Moscow any attack on Walesa would constitute a direct attack on the RCC as well. This strong RCC support for Walesa was of great concern and a major source of political and military paralysis in Moscow.

Although thousands of Soviet tanks and troops were amassed on the Polish border during the unrest in Poland, Soviet forces never stormed the country to restore order, as they did during the earlier uprisings in East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Events prophesied in the Book of Daniel where three kings are subdued, (Daniel 7:8, 7:20 and 24).

I know about Lech Walesa's history. The USSR hasn't moved in only because of the new 100% pro-West pro-capitalism leadership of Mikhail Gorbachev. He is the number one reason, and not external factors, that the USSR fell. Even the coup d'état of 1991 was false-flag operation by him in order to push the creation of the CIS. Gorbachev lives in London and had an enormous celebration of his 80th birthday recently not for nothing. I still don't see much importance of Walesa to the collapse of the USSR. A tiny factor that did play a small role in speeding up Warsaw Agreement dissolving. However break-up of the USSR and introduction of capitalism was performed single-handedly by Gorbachev.

Now this cross over communist regalia symbolism by the RCC really makes me think that they perhaps had a strong involvement in influencing Gorbachev? Or perhaps, it's not meant to indicate past victories, but a declaration of purpose in present and future? I don't know.

 

[Uber Genius]

..as paul says....you can have all the knowlege in the world...and if you dont have love....you have nothing...the goal of knowledge is love......

Not to the exclusion of knowledge!

AMPC
Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. 2 Tim. 2:15

2 Timothy 3:14-17 ESV / 181 helpful votes
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, but the mouths of fools feed on folly.

Proverbs 18:15
An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.


So by equivocating "making knowledge always bad" you violate the scriptures!

Knowledge for the reason of self-aggrandizement is bad, and that is Paul's point about puffing up. The Corinthians are arguing about who's teaching (knowledge) is superior, Paul's or Apollos'.

The context is not "All knowledge pursuits!"

This is the source of your exegetical fallacy.

 

[corinth77777]

Not to the exclusion of knowledge!

AMPC
Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. 2 Tim. 2:15

2 Timothy 3:14-17 ESV / 181 helpful votes
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, but the mouths of fools feed on folly.

Proverbs 18:15
An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.


So by equivocating "making knowledge always bad" you violate the scriptures!

Knowledge for the reason of self-aggrandizement is bad, and that is Paul's point about puffing up. The Corinthians are arguing about who's teaching (knowledge) is superior, Paul's or Apollos'.

The context is not "All knowledge pursuits!"



This is the source of your exegetical fallacy.

..have no clue what your talking about.....I was making a point...of those arguing..in the forum..

Point is one can have all the knowledge in the world...and if there is no change in heart...then its vanity...for the goal is love...not hate and getting upset because one does not believe a doctrine....

Is paul implying don't get Knowledge....um no.....

But you had all the knowledge in the world and your heart has not changed..then vanity.

You speak words and reference them as I said them......lol...why?...I wasn't trying to argue a point of rather one gets knowledge...gee wiz...

Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Political non-involvement by Christianity in "worldly" government is very much a "condition of salvation". There is no such thing as "Militant" Christianity or "Political" Christianity found anywhere in the Gospel Christ. So although you may find the subject boring, It is nevertheless a basic tenant of Christianity, as stated in (1 John 2:15) and is therefore appropriate to the subject of this particular thread.

First, I don't know what your beliefs are but if you think that is a condition of salvation then your theology is way off.

Second, I didn't say I found the subject boring, I said that it's a different subject. I stand by that, but you assuming is not appreciated.

Third, your rude. It is standard practice to begin a new thread. That way using the title of the thread you will get more people and people interested in that topic, usually a better conversation.

Let's not talk again.

 

[ToBeLoved]

..have no clue what your talking about.....I was making a point...of those arguing..in the forum..

Point is one can have all the knowledge in the world...and if there is no change in heart...then its vanity...for the goal is love...not hate and getting upset because one does not believe a doctrine....

Is paul implying don't get Knowledge....um no.....

But you had all the knowledge in the world and your heart has not changed..then vanity.

You speak words and reference them as I said them......lol...why?...I wasn't trying to argue a point of rather one gets knowledge...gee wiz...

Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill...

This thread is getting heated. Think it's time to bow out.

Not blaming you. Just commenting on your reply.

 

[corinth77777]

The question was..is salvation conditional.

And my answer...is dependent upon the meaning of salvation and eternal life.....and upon understanding faith and works..in their context

And my answer would be yes...If you look at the old testament stories...people were saved based on Obedience..Joshua and Caleb.., the Red sea upon obeying Moses's words from God....
And so.......looking at how we are saved through washing and regeneration....(this is where I am on it right now in reguards to my studying Willard's work)
One I learned there are 2 types of faith..
The faith of Jesus.....and faith in Jesus
I also learned that there are 2 types of life ..quality of life...and the age of life.
I undrerstand that Eternal life.....in the bible is defined as knowing God and Jesus......and I know you cannot know him...according to Him unless you obey him.....1 john....
I learned that there are works to Earn salvation......and there are works of obedience....
And I'm still studying...these...and now when I come across passages...I need to know which one the scripture is referring to in context...

With those things in mind....yes Salvation is conditional upon our obedience....but to speak of salvation on earth....would it mean the quality of life...??
Point being if we remain in him we will find out ...

Salvation...yes, in my understanding is a condition of being obedient....and comes by intending to act upon what we believe....
For faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen......faith...going when not knowing.....etc...

 

[believeume]

No, salvation is totally unconditional. Unfortunately our human minds cannot wrap our heads around this simple fact.

It is love beyond our comprehension. We, as humans, always want someone to "pay" for their wrong doings, sins, mean actions etc. God, however, is God and tells us to come as we are, no prerequisites and no conditions.

We are saved and once saved always saved...

Think of it this way. If I receive salvation, by no action of my own. If I cannot physically, earthly, DO anything to achieve salvation. Then, how can I DO anything to lose it?

Earthly actions do not save you, earthly actions cannot remove the gift of salvation from your soul.

The only thing that would do that, and this will be impossible for the truly saved, is to take the mark of the beast OR blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Well, I guess I ventured that path as well.

Say I am cut off from God completely here, then what.

 

[believeume]

True and that the children shall not be put to death for the sins of fathers, but that every man shall be put to death for his own sin," (Deuteronomy 24:16; 24:16; 2 Kings 14:5,6; 2 Chronicles 25:4; Jeremiah 31:29,30; Ezekiel 18:20)is one of the most abundantly affirmed statements of Scripture, rightly understood as referring to actually being punished for the sins of their father.

For God does visit "the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Exodus 34:7) in the sense of suffering due to their choices, which is a punishment upon the fathers that sinned.

But no one will face the 2nd death because they are punished for what someone else did, for instead this judgment is expressly stated to be according to their own works. (Revelation 20:11--15) and in relation to the degree and manner of grace and light given. (Luke. 10:10-15)

Even if a person never heard of Christ yet in essence they have rejected Him by rejecting the light they did have, and Christ is the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9)

And even if a soul is not granted repentance, yet they are justly condemned because they have chosen to sin when they did not have to, and will be judged according to the choices they could make and did, not for their failure to do what they could not.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (Romans 1:21-22)

True, and thus, rather then being condemned due to what they were not personally culpable for (Adam's sin) or had no choice to do (sin as a result), and no ability to escape it (repent and believe the gospel), the lost are condemned for what they chose to do, although they could have chosen the alternative.

For while man is spiritually dead and inevitably will sin, the lost can still choose to sin and can resist doing so to a significant degree (although choices can result in being delivered over to sin), and it is this choice that the lost are condemned for - and in accordance with the degree of light and grace given - versus merely having a sinful nature or for what they had no hand in doing, or for what they were not able to resist or chose thru no fault of their own.

The lost are condemned because God has given them light, which they rejected:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)

This foolish choice of rejecting the degree of light the lost had resulted in them become darkened :
Because that, when they knew [perceived] God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21)

They thus become fools, exchanging darkness for light, and changed their perception of God accordingly:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:22,23)

Which resulted in God delivering them over to gross lusts and behavior:
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 1:24-25)

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Romans 1:26-27)

We see this today in America as a whole, with a link btwn worship of nature and homosexual fornication, and its consequences.

This choice to reject the light they had resulted in this deliverance unto darkness and degradation:
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers... (Romans 1:28-29)

And which is in accordance with the principle the Lord taught:
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. (John 12:35-36)

And,
we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. (Romans 2:2)

Thus while man by nature is sinful, yet rather than being condemned for ignorance, or for the sins of others, or for what they had no other choice to do, the lost are condemned for what they could and did choose to do, rejecting the light they had in favor of deception, and then acting in accordance with it. They became foolish, and thus acted as fools.

For although the lost are spiritually dead, and born with a sinful nature, and God must grant salvific grace to the elect, yet the lost yet have an basic innate sense of right from wrong, and thus can "do by nature [the] things contained in the law," (Romans 2:14) or reject this light and act accordingly. And it is this choice, and in relation to the degree of light and grace given, that the lost are condemned for.

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (Matthew 11:20-23)

The inhabitants of both Tyre, Sidon and Sodom, and of Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum are justly condemned for their sins, even though in the former 3 locales greater grace could have worked repentance, but which God owes no one, esp. to such proud rejectors of light and lovers of sin.

Yet Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum were more accountable and thus their judgment more severe due to their sins in accordance with the greater degree of light and grace they were given.

In contrast,
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalms 34:18)

It is these you find the Lord Jesus as their savior, and thus, being saved on His expense and account, follow Him:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)

That's got to be a whole chapter, do you document your post's.

 

[believeume]

First, I don't know what your beliefs are but if you think that is a condition of salvation then your theology is way off.

Second, I didn't say I found the subject boring, I said that it's a different subject. I stand by that, but you assuming is not appreciated.

Third, your rude. It is standard practice to begin a new thread. That way using the title of the thread you will get more people and people interested in that topic, usually a better conversation.

Let's not talk again.

I thought that was addressed to me. (I'll pretend it is)
Eeeeep!