Is salvation conditional?

[GPK]

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

Salvation is a gift, there is no charge. All you have to do is accept the gift of salvation and accept Jesus Christ as lord of your life. If you are genuinely saved, you will remain faithful to Jesus and nothing can change that. If you decide that you no longer wish to be faithful to Jesus, then you were never genuinely saved.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Salvation is a gift, there is no charge. All you have to do is accept the gift of salvation and accept Jesus Christ as lord of your life. If you are genuinely saved, you will remain faithful to Jesus and nothing can change that. If you decide that you no longer wish to be faithful to Jesus, then you were never genuinely saved.

A classic definition of OSAS doctrine. How should an OSAS believer deal with any doubts of salvation? Isn't it very important? How would you resolve an issue of a doubting believer, who's asking, am I truly and genuinely saved or not? Which methods do you use to assure salvation? Or, perhaps, to determine whether or not one is saved? Do you consider doubts a sign of not being genuinely saved? Is there a protocol of how to approach such situations? I know several people who in the course of their life, had more than one "salvations". For example, in childhood, then in student years when they seem to realize they hadn't been saved all along, and then in adult life again and again. 2-3-4 times... Very sincere and with deep feelings each time. I have no reasons to question the validity of their experiences - and to me as an external observer, nothing much changed in their faith or behavior. What is it? What to make of all of this?

 

[OzSpen]

So you're saying that the gospel of Jesus Christ is really not necessary.

Not at all. However, Paul taught that God has placed evidence of himself in creation. What have all people done with this evidence? Have they pursued God to the point of salvific understanding and experience?

This we know that all unbelievers will meet God after death and they will be 'without excuse' before him.

Oz

 

[ToBeLoved]

A classic definition of OSAS doctrine. How should an OSAS believer deal with any doubts of salvation? Isn't it very important? How would you resolve an issue of a doubting believer, who's asking, am I truly and genuinely saved or not? Which methods do you use to assure salvation? Or, perhaps, to determine whether or not one is saved? Do you consider doubts a sign of not being genuinely saved? Is there a protocol of how to approach such situations? I know several people who in the course of their life, had more than one "salvations". For example, in childhood, then in student years when they seem to realize they hadn't been saved all along, and then in adult life again and again. 2-3-4 times... Very sincere and with deep feelings each time. I have no reasons to question the validity of their experiences - and to me as an external observer, nothing much changed in their faith or behavior. What is it? What to make of all of this?

The Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant.

The Holy Spirit and our spirit together testifies that we are Christ's Own.

Do you have the indwelling Holy Spirit, Joe?

 

[fhansen]

Someone is saved through being justified.

So if someone turns away from God, after having been justified, living a life of sin, are they still justified/saved?

 

[ToBeLoved]

So if someone turns away from God, after having been justified, living a life of sin, are they still justified/saved?

Yup. According to God they are.

We don't know that the experience of heaven is the same for all and I think God's Word shows that it will not be.
They are missing out on a lot of the rewards and crowns that Jesus will be giving in heaven when all we have done on earth is evaluated by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-14
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.


Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Luke 6:23
"Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:26
considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

Matthew 16:27
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

Daniel 12:3
"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Luke 19:15-19
"When he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him so that he might know what business they had done. "The first appeared, saying, 'Master, your mina has made ten minas more.' "And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.' read more.

1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

2 Corinthians 9:6
Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

Matthew 5:10-12
"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Luke 6:22-23
"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. "Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

1 Peter 5:4
And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?

2 Timothy 4:8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Ephesians 2:6
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

John 14:3
"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

 

[Purpurin]

A classic definition of OSAS doctrine. How should an OSAS believer deal with any doubts of salvation? Isn't it very important? How would you resolve an issue of a doubting believer, who's asking, am I truly and genuinely saved or not? Which methods do you use to assure salvation? Or, perhaps, to determine whether or not one is saved? Do you consider doubts a sign of not being genuinely saved? Is there a protocol of how to approach such situations? I know several people who in the course of their life, had more than one "salvations". For example, in childhood, then in student years when they seem to realize they hadn't been saved all along, and then in adult life again and again. 2-3-4 times... Very sincere and with deep feelings each time. I have no reasons to question the validity of their experiences - and to me as an external observer, nothing much changed in their faith or behavior. What is it? What to make of all of this?

What I believe is that once you believe in Jesus as your saviour you will be saved and will be granted eternal life in heaven.

I think the problem is many people believe in Jesus not as their saviour, but because they want healing, help, scared of what to come, etc.
when this happens, chances that the person will turn away from God would be much higher once they got what they wanted or disappointed because not getting what they want/expected.

When a person follows Jesus, and become child of God, I would think they will try their best not to bring shame to God name. They will try to be more and more like Christ, this will not happen spontaneously.

Just like parent and child, I love my parent so much, I will not do anything to embarrassed them or disappoint them on purpose.

This goes back to one of the statement that say it means salvation is a free pass. People can be saved then kill and still go to heaven.
If he/she have this intention in mind, doesn't it mean he/she never actually believe in Jesus as his/her saviour? Which means that he/she has not been justified from the beginning.

 

[fhansen]

Yup. According to God they are.

“Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?...” 1 Cor 6:9

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14-15

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” Heb 6:4-6

It’s possible for true believers to fall away-permanently

“But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.” Phil 3:7-16

There’s the possibility of not keeping that standard, of not reaching the prize, of not attaining to the resurrection of the dead.

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:12-13

Man will always be obligated to obedience of God.

 

[corinth77777]

How did Paul get in here, your post sets up knowledge as something to be despised. Or at least doubted.

It is the opposite of how Christ, his disciples, and Paul viewed it.

Now I pointed to How Shema demanded we love God with our mind which. Take to be our intellect. Do you reject shema?

Paul preached in the agora of Tyranus for two years, engaged the greek philosophers everywhere he encountered them, went into the synagogues to demonstrate from the scripture how Jesus was the promised messiah. That is a lot of logic and knowledge arguments.

So point being knowledge for knowledge's sake is certainly not praiseworthy. And your point about doctrine is certainly true, but baby Christians always fall back on the knowledge argument you gave to justify their disengagement with ideas and every cultural worldview raised up against the knowledge of Christ.

These intellectual immature Christians do not do the job they were called to do as ambassadors.

My claims is fulfill shema!

Work as hard as Paul did in defending the Gospel against competing worldviews!

Study to show oneself approved being able to accurately handle the word of truth!

..as paul says....you can have all the knowlege in the world...and if you dont have love....you have nothing...the goal of knowledge is love......

 

[ToBeLoved]

“Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?...” 1 Cor 6:9

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14-15

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” Heb 6:4-6

It’s possible for true believers to fall away-permanently

“But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.” Phil 3:7-16

There’s the possibility of not keeping that standard, of not reaching the prize, of not attaining to the resurrection of the dead.

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:12-13

Man will always be obligated to obedience of God.

No. that's not right. On my cell phone so I can't respond to your individual verses til later.

Just remember, when sin has been forgiven God casts it as far as the east is from the west.

So in those verses He is not referring to forgiven sin, but unforgiven sin.

I will address the other verses later tonight.

 

[corinth77777]

Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. Justification is more than just the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. It's to be cleansed-made authentically just-then to continue to walk and grow in that justice throughout one's life. This is why a person can lose justice anew, by turning away from God instead-again, by the way they live their lives. This is why OSAS is a fallacy.

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48

I didn't understand

We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross and His shed blood for the forgiveness of sins. Christ having justified us in His perfect righteousness, through faith, we have the righteousness of Christ, our Advocate.

So yes, faith is the qualifier. But God has never said anything different.

One that does not have enough faith can ask God for more faith.

Matthew 21:22
22 If you believe, you will receive” whatever you ask in prayer.

So can one ask for more faith and receive that?

Recall...that faith is hope plus evidence according to Hebrews....so lets take it further and use the substitution method....if you believe with intent to act or evidence you can ask anything in his name....and he hears you....Paul ask to be healed..but God said, His grace was sufficient.....so if it's in his will..then his will be done. Faith...as my Father would..symbol is, going but not knowing....Faith is the substence of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen......faithing allows us to have an interactive relationship...with our God....It was through obedience to Moses who got his words from God....that the people were saved...at the red sea......People are saved due to obedience to the faith.....The works..mentioned elsewhere are talking about the scribes and pharasees deeds...or works by the law to earn salvation....not works of obedience to the faith...

 

[fhansen]

No. that's not right. On my cell phone so I can't respond to your individual verses til later.

Just remember, when sin has been forgiven God casts it as far as the east is from the west.

So in those verses He is not referring to forgiven sin, but unforgiven sin.

I will address the other verses later tonight.

Christianity is not an excuse to continue do what fallen man already wants/tends to do anyway, which is to sin. Rather the purpose of our faith is to help us rise again.

 

[corinth77777]

Plus with all the verses of Christian being referred to as being in a slave/master situation kind of paints the picture that you couldn't leave the faith. He owns us, quite frankly.

Lol...would rather be a slave to righteousness...then a slave to sin..when you can create something out of nothing...or wven keep yourself alive or create the universe...then u can set things the way you like them....then shall I wonder if what you create can think...would they asked u...to redue it and do it the way they like...lol....accept they dont know what's good for them...lol because they're just the creation.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

What I believe is that once you believe in Jesus as your saviour you will be saved and will be granted eternal life in heaven.

I think the problem is many people believe in Jesus not as their saviour, but because they want healing, help, scared of what to come, etc.
when this happens, chances that the person will turn away from God would be much higher once they got what they wanted or disappointed because not getting what they want/expected.

When a person follows Jesus, and become child of God, I would think they will try their best not to bring shame to God name. They will try to be more and more like Christ, this will not happen spontaneously.

Just like parent and child, I love my parent so much, I will not do anything to embarrassed them or disappoint them on purpose.

This goes back to one of the statement that say it means salvation is a free pass. People can be saved then kill and still go to heaven.
If he/she have this intention in mind, doesn't it mean he/she never actually believe in Jesus as his/her saviour? Which means that he/she has not been justified from the beginning.

I was so looking to hear your answer, and was disappointed. You explained "once saved always saved" doctrine again, in different wording. You didn't answer any of my questions about assurance of salvation and repeated "salvations" of some.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Christianity is not an excuse to continue do what fallen man already wants/tends to do anyway, which is to sin. Rather the purpose of our faith is to help us rise again.

Great. This is great. Do you believe that salvation is a life long process? That the final judgement will decide your fate, based on your deeds?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Not at all. However, Paul taught that God has placed evidence of himself in creation. What have all people done with this evidence? Have they pursued God to the point of salvific understanding and experience?

This we know that all unbelievers will meet God after death and they will be 'without excuse' before him.

Oz

You didn't add new information to what you had already said. So you are saying, the people who've never heard the gospel about Jesus are judged on the basis of the information they derive from observing the creation? Doesn't it effectively remove the need for the gospel? Not that the gospel is completely useless, but that there are basically two options. Coming to the Father through Jesus Christ, or coming to the Father through looking at the outside world and inferring the law built into it? So, either way, you receive complete information to be judged - "there is no excuse".

What about, say, a man by the name Asvathama, born and raised in Varanasi, India as a devout Hindu? He's never heard the proper gospel of Jesus Christ, but respected his parents, took care of siblings, helped the neighbours and otherwise led a pious life? He looked at creation, understood and obeyed the natural law.

 

[Purpurin]

I was so looking to hear your answer, and was disappointed. You explained "once saved always saved" doctrine again, in different wording. You didn't answer any of my questions about assurance of salvation and repeated "salvations" of some.

There's no such thing as repeated "salvation".

The thing is that God said that once you're given the gift of salvation, nothing could take that away from you.

Repenting over and over again, doesn't mean that you had lost your gift of salvation and got it back over and over again.

It is all in the mind of the believer. When you have doubt, you should pray to the Lord and seek for His guidance.

Think about it as father and son/daughter relationship. We could be so angry at our father, say all bad things like you're no longer my father etc. It will not change the fact that he is still your father.

When someone ask if they have now receive the gift of salvation, they should answer a question "do you believe that Jesus is the saviour? That He has come to save us from all sins?" If the answer to that question is yes, then he/she is saved.

The only person that can assure them if they've been saved is themselves as they're the only one that know if they truly believe.

I hope that clarify

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I hope that clarify

More or less.

I understand. No clear cut approach, no fixed how-to steps, but kind of "best effort" on the part of the believer, between them and God. Makes sense.

Yes, I understood well the idea of salvation once and forever. The Christians I know who had repeated experiences of "salvation" considered their last experience to be genuine and not the previous one(s), which were(was) not genuine due to lack of correct understanding of the gospel - or lack of trusting only the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ on Calvary without adding own works as means of salvation. The "verification test" was whether or not they were doubting their salvation, which to them was a sign of no assurance. Assurance is guaranteed by the seal of the Holy Spirit, the non-removable pledge of eternal life, who constantly testifies to the spirit of the believer that he or she are God's child. 2 Corinthians 1:22, Romans 8:16.

Another related question. Do you think that assurance of salvation by grace can be understood by a believer as entitlement, or "licence to sin" because you are saved no matter what and you can never lose your salvation?

To be frank, I see it quite a bit in Christians who believe that way. They're careless about sin, if not outright sinful. They develop a corrupt, hypocritical, arrogant, self-righteous character. They have removed restrains, feeling that they are enjoying complete freedom to do virtually anything without serious repercussions. John 8:32-36, Galatians 5:13 Is any of this possible, you think, as the result of OSAS doctrine?

 

[corinth77777]

There's no such thing as repeated "salvation".

The thing is that God said that once you're given the gift of salvation, nothing could take that away from you.

Repenting over and over again, doesn't mean that you had lost your gift of salvation and got it back over and over again.

It is all in the mind of the believer. When you have doubt, you should pray to the Lord and seek for His guidance.

Think about it as father and son/daughter relationship. We could be so angry at our father, say all bad things like you're no longer my father etc. It will not change the fact that he is still your father.

When someone ask if they have now receive the gift of salvation, they should answer a question "do you believe that Jesus is the saviour? That He has come to save us from all sins?" If the answer to that question is yes, then he/she is saved.

The only person that can assure them if they've been saved is themselves as they're the only one that know if they truly believe.

I hope that clarify

I don't know if I believe that....Im studying Dallas Willards work and not sure...

For consider salvation here and now....as when Jesus said his kingdom was at hand.......Many of us were brought up thinking that once you believed(the mental belief) that you were saved....But seeing that when salvation and eternal life is not just speaking in terms of what happens when you die but based as the quality of life lived...then....salvation takes on a whole new concept....saved or not saved from present day conflict..or sin in your life now...as the effects it has on ones relationship with God....sin seperates us...it is walking in him where we would find peace......so..if you sometimes have peace...and sometimes don't that would intail being saved over and over.....and if what experiece as peace now....then wouldn't you expect to have future peace?

 

[stephen583]

What works are you looking for

There is not one single iota of evidence found anywhere in the New Testament that Jesus or the Apostles told anyone Christianity should be changed from its' original tenants and principles, or organized in order to better succeed in a secular world as it grew.

Jesus and the Apostles never instructed any Christian at any time, to go out and buy land, building materials , statuary, and go out and construct physical temples (churches, cathedrals and shrines), and then appoint priests and ministers (a religious hierarchy) to preside over them.

Why would Jesus, and the Apostles instruct Christians to do, exactly the same thing, Christ himself had just condemned the Jewish temple for doing ? (Matthew 23:38 and Luke 13:35).

If you can find one single verse in the New Testament where Jesus or the original Apostles instructed any Christian to do this, post it here. I can post several Scriptures that state the exact opposite. Starting with this one.

"Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. Anyone who says they love the world, the love of the Father is not in them" (1 John 2:15).