Is salvation conditional?

[ToBeLoved]

The only thing I take from this is - you don't know. To me that means, you can't really preach the gospel to people, because you don't understand and believe to be wrong to know how exactly people get saved?

How much thought did it take to reach that incorrect conclusion? Seems like a truth seeker would be asking more questions, so ask Joe. I'm not going anywhere.

I think I've explained very well how people get saved, what are your questions then Joe? That I should judge the Old Covenant people's by the New Covenant standards?

Why don't you explain to me why the covenants matter, if you know of course. If not ask and I'll explain it to you.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I assume you've asked God about it and He has been silent in your experience? Or have you not asked God?

I don't see how this is a part of our discussion in this topic. What is your understanding? I'm here to learn that much.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I think I've explained very well how people get saved, what are your questions then Joe? That I should judge the Old Covenant people's by the New Covenant standards?

My questions are very clear, I think.

What happens to the people who have never heard? How do you understand it? It's not a new question. The answers I received here so far: "I don't know", "It's not for us to know". In the past I did hear different other opinions from Christians as to the fate of those people. Some of them are very complicated, including reincarnation of those people in the future, for example. The majority church teaching, is that they are going to hell. Muslims, atheists, Hindus, etc. I hear it constantly. Let's save the lost world! The lost 10/40, 40/70 windows etc.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, now I find myself responding to all kinds of accusations and questioning my personality and motives. Yes, go ahead, shoot the messenger. Attack the asker when you can't answer their questions. Good job, Christians!

I simply ask questions, if I get responses, I reply to the responses. It's called discussion. I do not judge or make assumptions about the intentions of people I'm talking with. It's called mutual respect. Why not stay on the topic instead of talking about me?

It seems Christianity does not stand questions... Or any religion, for that matter. Because I have similar discussions with people of all kinds of Christian and other faiths.

How is an attack to ask you what the Bible says about your question?

Where do you think we get our answers from.

If you would be very clear about your question, I think you would get quite thorough answers. Maybe you need to get very specific, not hypothetical situations of your own making, but what God's Word says. So now you have the floor. Ask away, but don't expect us to judge others, we are called not to judge. Christ is the only perfect and righteous judge.

Do you need scripture for that statement to understand why I'm saying it and not to say I'm attacking you, but sharing what God Himself says.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't see how this is a part of our discussion in this topic. What is your understanding? I'm here to learn that much.

Ok, I'll try to lay this out for you, very simply.

Where do Christians get their understanding of God from? The Bible, God's Word?

Where else? Answer to prayer?

So if we get most of our answers from God's Word and prayer, is my asking you what the Bible says about the issue and if you prayed about it a bad answer?

No, it is the most common question that we would ask each other.

So, where have you gotten your understanding from? That's a valid question.

 

[fhansen]

Do you understand the difference between 'justification' and 'sanctification'? Very, very important.

Justification is Jesus Christ giving us His perfect, righteousness when we are saved. Making us spotless from sin. Giving us HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. That is why the Bible says 'In Christ', 'through Christ', ect.

Sanctification is God changing us into the new creations that Christ made us through sanctification. Changing our hearts, minds and desires. Making us Christ-like. That takes a life time.

Two very different things.


Now, is justification a one time event or a process? per Romans 4, 5, and 6?

Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. Justification is more than just the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. It's to be cleansed-made authentically just-then to continue to walk and grow in that justice throughout one's life. This is why a person can lose justice anew, by turning away from God instead-again, by the way they live their lives. This is why OSAS is a fallacy.

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48

 

[ToBeLoved]

Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. Justification is more than just the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. It's to be cleansed-made authentically just-then to continue to walk and grow in that justice throughout one's life.

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48

Well, you have not proven that using scripture.

So again, how is justification more than the forgiveness of sin and the imputation of righteousness?

Scripture please that your understanding of justification is correct.

Let's start there.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

How is an attack to ask you what the Bible says about your question?

Not that of course. I was talking about the personal insinuations about my intentions and sincerity. I don't judge anyone here and expect the same for myself.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Ok, I'll try to lay this out for you, very simply.

Where do Christians get their understanding of God from? The Bible, God's Word?

Where else? Answer to prayer?

So if we get most of our answers from God's Word and prayer, is my asking you what the Bible says about the issue and if you prayed about it a bad answer?

No, it is the most common question that we would ask each other.

So, where have you gotten your understanding from? That's a valid question.

Well, these are good and valid questions, I just don't want to wash our discussion away with many subjects, and stay focused. I'll remind that we were talking about salvation - is it conditional, and the related questions. To me, it's a question of number one importance in Abrahamic religions.

 

[Deer]

Depends on your view of salvation. The Catholic view is synergistic, that is to say, God works and man works works of righteousness. So just being faithful to Jesus would not produce salvation on Catholicism.

On Calvinism, we don't even have the freedom to respond, or reject Christ if we are indeed "The Elect."

On the Arminian view our works play no part in justification, but do play a part in sanctification. Loss of salvation is not a result of sin except Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Which is rejecting the HS message of our sin condition and Christ's substitutionary death on the cross. If we reject Christ later in life we can have our name "blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

This area is known as eternal security of the believer. IVP press has a counterpoints book representing the various positions.

I mostly agree with this, but I would argue that a person who has truly accepted Christ could not lose their salvation, even despite a possible loss of faith later in life. The passage mentioning blotting names out of the book of life is found in Psalms, which must be interpreted as poetry and not necessarily literal at all times. The unforgiveable sin, the rejection of the Holy Spirit, is dying in rejection of Christ. Simply put, an unsaved person cannot be forgiven and will be sent to hell. This is not referring to a Christian losing their salvation, but why people are sent to hell.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. Justification is more than just the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. It's to be cleansed-made authentically just-then to continue to walk and grow in that justice throughout one's life. This is why a person can lose justice anew, by turning away from God instead-again, by the way they live their lives. This is why OSAS is a fallacy.

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48

I agree that OSAS sounds incorrect, if we call God just. It's also the single biggest reason of hypocrisy and corruption in the denominations that hold this teaching, I think. Kind of gives such believer a sense of entitlement because of the "licence to sin": going to heaven no matter what.

I personally see much, much better results in regards to deeds, purity and sincerity of faith in the Christian denominations that call salvation a process rather than a one-moment and irreversible event.

 

[ToBeLoved]

dup

 

[Hallstone]

I was being facetious.

My point was that if we transport the "saying of Jesus," out of their place and time (context) we can produce some very abhorrent teaching on what God requires of us to gain salvation.

We want to take sections of scripture where the theme the author is focused on is salvation, rather than lift these out of context.

Romans 3-8

Or Phil. 3:4-11:

"
4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.
8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ
9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith inChrist—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead."

The passage could be summed up:

"Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ!"

When we stack that up against, " “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him," (Jn 14) we say which one is it works or faith?

In fact we have much work to do exegetically before we are able to understand the reference in John or the Mt 7:21-23 passages.

One of our interpretive rules is to interpret the unclear in light of the clear.

Is we to back to Matt, and John and look at those passages, are they talking about salvation? Is the surrounding theme to discuss how one is saved? Now look at Romans 3-8 and Galatians 3, Ephesians 2, Phil. 3, and ask the same questions.

So we seem to have a distinction between salvation and sanctification.

So is salvation conditional. One view is yes, and that condition is "confessing Jesus as Lord." Works play no role whatsoever in salvation/justification.

Now you may hold and defend an alternative view. Perhaps a pelagian or semi-pelagian (think RCC) view that it is a combination of our good works and Christ's death that are efficacious in our salvation.

I would be interested in hearing which view you hold and why.

We left the Organizations that we had been attending for many years because of this very subject, we came to understand that they had become nothing more than Milk Peddling social clubs that took the wonderful introductory gracious Milk of the Word and turned it into a business, sure there was a high level of sincerity but also a tremendous amount of error. There are many scriptures that mention sanctification, and they are referring to our walk with Christ, Sanctification not only means our introduction to Christ through the Milk of the Word, but also our transformation into followers of Christ, which means we don't just go every week to a temple and slug down Milk for 2 hours and think that's all there is to it. we have to continue in our walk with Christ and become what He has given us the power to become, otherwise we become stagnate and bear no fruit, and become corrupted by the world. This is why Paul said:

Rom 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
1Th 4:4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.

Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

Those who unwittingly take the gracious introduction (Milk) of the Lord and peddle it with the Priestcraft of the Old Empire are in great error, and unknowingly have gone the way of Balaam who loved Prestige, money and fame more than he loved God, and it cost him everything, and Jude spoke about these:

Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Milk Peddlers do not teach the things that is required for Sanctification, because it conflicts with their financial agenda, and their Priestcraft, they would have you remain infants and beginners in order to profit from you all the while they appear pious.

2Co 2:17 For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.
Without Sanctification we will not see God. I hope this helps you as it has helped my family.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross and His shed blood for the forgiveness of sins. Christ having justified us in His perfect righteousness, through faith, we have the righteousness of Christ, our Advocate.

So yes, faith is the qualifier. But God has never said anything different.

One that does not have enough faith can ask God for more faith.

Matthew 21:22
22 If you believe, you will receive” whatever you ask in prayer.

So can one ask for more faith and receive that?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I agree that OSAS sounds incorrect, if we call God just. It also the single biggest reason of hypocrisy and corruption in the protestant church that holds this teaching. I personally see much, much better results in regards to deeds, purity and sincerity of faith in the Christian denominations that call salvation a process rather than a one-moment event.

Please explain why OSAS is not correct if we call God just?

Because it is just the opposite. OSAS must be correct if we call God just.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Plus with all the verses of Christian being referred to as being in a slave/master situation kind of paints the picture that you couldn't leave the faith. He owns us, quite frankly.

 

[fhansen]

Well, you have not proven that using scripture.

So again, how is justification more than the forgiveness of sin and the imputation of righteousness?

Scripture please that your understanding of justification is correct.

Let's start there.

Let me ask this, if a person is justified, i.e. in a state of justice in the eyes of God, are they therefore saved?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Plus with all the verses of Christian being referred to as being in a slave/master situation kind of paints the picture that you couldn't leave the faith. He owns us, quite frankly.

Umm... This is somewhat true but in a different way.

We change ownership. We become a Child of God, but it is not a slave/master situation, but a master/servant relationship.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I mostly agree with this, but I would argue that a person who has truly accepted Christ could not lose their salvation, even despite a possible loss of faith later in life. The passage mentioning blotting names out of the book of life is found in Psalms, which must be interpreted as poetry and not necessarily literal at all times. The unforgiveable sin, the rejection of the Holy Spirit, is dying in rejection of Christ. Simply put, an unsaved person cannot be forgiven and will be sent to hell. This is not referring to a Christian losing their salvation, but why people are sent to hell.

So you believe in OSAS? Would you consider it unfair for a person, say, the robber on the cross with Jesus to go to heaven despite the lifetime of grave sin, whereas a truly good person, kind and caring who rejected Christ or never heard of Him, going to hell? Just your opinion.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let me ask this, if a person is justified, i.e. in a state of justice in the eyes of God, are they therefore saved?

Someone is saved through being justified.

Adam and Eve were not able to commune with God anymore because of their sin. The reason we cannot commune with God is because of our sin.

If sin is removed, then we can commune with God.

Once clothed in the righteousness of Christ we are saved from being separated from God. The Holy Spirit, God Himself is sent to indwell us. His Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Christ's Own.

The Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit is what determines that we are saved, God in us, through the righteousness and justification that we receive through Jesus Christ.


.Question: "What is justification? What does it mean to be justified?"

Answer: Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Though justification as a principle is found throughout Scripture, the main passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21-26: “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19 sums it up well: “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).
https://gotquestions.org/justification.html


.Question: "What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?"

Answer: The Holy Spirit is referred to as the “deposit,” “seal,” and “earnest” in the hearts of Christians (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). The Holy Spirit is God’s seal on His people, His claim on us as His very own. The Greek word translated “earnest” in these passages is arrhabōn which means “a pledge,” that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest. The gift of the Spirit to believers is a down payment on our heavenly inheritance, which Christ has promised us and secured for us at the cross. It is because the Spirit has sealed us that we are assured of our salvation. No one can break the seal of God.

The Holy Spirit is given to believers as a “first installment” to assure us that our full inheritance as children of God will be delivered. The Holy Spirit is given to us to confirm to us that we belong to God who grants to us His Spirit as a gift, just as grace and faith are gifts (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the gift of the Spirit, God renews and sanctifies us. He produces in our hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are evidence that we are accepted by God, that we are regarded as His adopted children, that our hope is genuine, and that our redemption and salvation are sure in the same way that a seal guarantees a will or an agreement. God grants to us His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that we are His forever and shall be saved in the last day. The proof of the Spirit’s presence is His operations on the heart which produce repentance, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), conformity to God’s commands and will, a passion for prayer and praise, and love for His people. These things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption.

So it is through the Holy Spirit and His teachings and guiding power that we are sealed and confirmed until the day of redemption, complete and free from the corruption of sin and the grave. Because we have the seal of the Spirit in our hearts, we can live joyfully, confident of our sure place in a future that holds unimaginable glories.