Is salvation conditional?

[ToBeLoved]

Good. That doesn't answer my question though.

Do you think that everyone who is a Christian understands all the things of God?

I know that He is fair, just and righteous and He will judge using these same attributes. We have our commands from Him. We do His will, we are His servants.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I think he was saying that it's through Christ that the sins we all commit can be forgiven, so if you have no Savior you will have to answer for your own failings. The implication is that you will be judged to be wanting...because of your unforgiven sin.

Yes that's what I was saying, no Saviour, no salvation. Billions going to hell for not hearing.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God alone knows with certainty the extent to which I've followed His will and responded to His grace -I can only have an assurance, albeit a guarded one, based on my trust in Him together with my own observance of how I've changed, how I've lived my life, what I've done, as per the Parable of the Talents, with the gifts He's given. Righteousness/justification has a basis, or a definition, which is love. And without that, I am nothing. 1 Cor 13

That really does conflict with Romans 4, 5 and 6, which says that we receive our justification ONLY in Christ. He is our Advocate, we receive His righteousness.

If you are in Christ, He HAS MADE YOU RIGHTEOUS IN HIM.

You can never get it or earn it on your own. It's not for sale. That's what God's Word says.

I would do a mini Bible study on justification. You have it way wrong.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes that's what I was saying, no Saviour, no salvation. Billions going to hell for not hearing.

And you know who has heard and who has not?

Please explain.

 

[Albion]

One moment Christians say they know everything about how to get saved. You point out lack of logic, then they quickly change their position and say that it's not the way all people get saved, or that we simply don't know how people get saved. Flip flop.

We seem to be having a little difficulty penetrating your determination not to hear of anything that cuts against your preconceived ideas--even though you are asking us questions. We do know what the word of God says when it comes to how salvation is made possible. Yes we do. But you asked about situations concerning which the Bible does not give us the answer. There is no reason to think that very situation that could possibly arise with anyone anywhere at any time must be revealed by God in his word. That's not a flip flop or evasion. That's the answer.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Do you think that everyone who is a Christian understands all the things of God?

I don't think so. I'm just asking simple questions.

 

[Albion]

Yes that's what I was saying, no Saviour, no salvation. Billions going to hell for not hearing.

That is indeed possible.

So have we settled things here? You disbelieve because you think God ought to operate in a certain way but does not. We believe that he has made salvation possible to those who trust in his Son, Jesus Christ. Is that an accurate summary?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't think so. I'm just asking simple questions.

That's fine.

Have you looked in the Bible first? Or are you just throwing these out there to see who bites and what they say?

The thing I have found is many people blame other people and their answers for things not being right. However, each one of us has God's Word, so no one is without excuse.

So, I hope you are barking up a tree because you want to find truth, ya know.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

We seem to be having a little difficulty penetrating your determination not to hear of anything that cuts against your preconceived ideas--even though you are asking us questions. We do know what the word of God says when it comes to how salvation is made possible. Yes we do. But you asked about situations concerning which the Bible does not give us the answer. There is no reason to think that very situation that could possibly arise with anyone anywhere at any time must be revealed by God in his word. That's not a flip flop or evasion. That's the answer.

I don't think your accusation of my unwillingness to hear has foundation. I do hear each and every answer, and appreciate them. It's great to talk openly. I hear and carefully respond to the specifics of the answer given to me, continuing the discussion. I just try and get an answer to my original question, not merely an attempt to run away from it, which happens often, but not always. Honesty.

Your answer is not an answer. Yes, evasion: now you are saying that if it's not in the Bible then we don't know. Why is it not in the Bible? It's the single most important question of all. And you claim that it's the way to heaven. It's a matter of punishment or reward for eternity. And you are not sure about the way of salvation for billions and billions of people because the word of God is silent about it?

I disagree. If the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus, and billions and billions do not know anything about Jesus, that means, according to the word of God, they go to hell. It's an obvious conclusion. That's why Purpurin said,

Salvation is a gift. The only thing we need to do is believe that Jesus is our saviour. Only by doing so, we will receive eternal life

The more reason for us Christian to spread the word of God

Logical. Billions and billions are going to hell, and so that is a motivation (for some) to go and evangelize to them. This is exactly the position of churches, and please do not evade and pretend it's not.

Muslim, buddist, atheist, hindu, pagan etc. countries - you're saying Christians don't know their fate?

It is not refusing to hear. It's continuation of discussion based on honest fact and logic.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

That is indeed possible.

So have we settled things here? You disbelieve because you think God ought to operate in a certain way but does not. We believe that he has made salvation possible to those who trust in his Son, Jesus Christ. Is that an accurate summary?

I just ask questions. It's not a matter of belief or disbelief. Not a matter of choosing ideas to your liking. It's a matter of trying to understand. Isn't it natural to start asking questions when you don't understand? You think I have nothing better to do than sit in my armchair and type all these words?

I share my thoughts honestly. If I understood and accepted certain ideas, I would have said so. It's not games. It's open and straight talk. Is it not allowed? Or only agreeing with a certain ideology acceptable and good?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

That's fine.

Have you looked in the Bible first? Or are you just throwing these out there to see who bites and what they say?

The thing I have found is many people blame other people and their answers for things not being right. However, each one of us has God's Word, so no one is without excuse.

So, I hope you are barking up a tree because you want to find truth, ya know.

Well, now I find myself responding to all kinds of accusations and questioning my personality and motives. Yes, go ahead, shoot the messenger. Attack the asker when you can't answer their questions. Good job, Christians!

I simply ask questions, if I get responses, I reply to the responses. It's called discussion. I do not judge or make assumptions about the intentions of people I'm talking with. It's called mutual respect. Why not stay on the topic instead of talking about me?

It seems Christianity does not stand questions... Or any religion, for that matter. Because I have similar discussions with people of all kinds of Christian and other faiths.

 

[Albion]

Your answer is not an answer. Yes, evasion: now you are saying that if it's not in the Bible then we don't know.

There are no 'evasions' in there. That's what I've said from the beginning, friend.

It's the single most important question of all. And you claim that it's the way to heaven. It's a matter of punishment or reward for eternity. And you are not sure about the way of salvation for billions and billions of people because the word of God is silent about it?

That's right. I am also saying that there is no particular reason why I have to know.

I disagree.

And that is what I wrote in my last post before this one. There's no call for you to fume or to denigrate anyone after they've agreed to answer your questions.

 

[fhansen]

That really does conflict with Romans 4, 5 and 6, which says that we receive our justification ONLY in Christ. He is our Advocate, we receive His righteousness.

If you are in Christ, He HAS MADE YOU RIGHTEOUS IN HIM.

You can never get it or earn it on your own. It's not for sale. That's what God's Word says.

I would do a mini Bible study on justification. You have it way wrong.

A lot of people have it wrong. Justification is at one and the same time an event, and a process. Read the Parable of the Talents and also Matt 25:31-46. The bible has to be understood in its whole context. Man will always be obligated to be righteous. The problem is that this righteousness comes only from God, and is realized only has man achieves communion with Him. This is what Jesus came to accomplish: reconciliation with and then union between man and God, as was always meant to be the right order of things. Man is just only because God grants him justice, not because He ignores man's injustice. And God loves man so much that He doesn't want man to remain a sinner; He didn't create man to be a sinner after all. He wants way more from us-and more importantly for us-than we can even begin to imagine. Either way the bible is quite full of passages that tell us that man can turn back away from God, after coming to believe, at any step along the way.

 

[Uber Genius]

I sure hope you are not calling Paul a mocker....
"
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Point being the outcome of knowledge should be love...

One can call out every mistake they think another has made in their doctrines...but its the one that trust Jesus who is truly justified...and they can have lots of faulty thinking...and enter the kingdom faster than one who doesn't and believes all the right things....

How did Paul get in here, your post sets up knowledge as something to be despised. Or at least doubted.

It is the opposite of how Christ, his disciples, and Paul viewed it.

Now I pointed to How Shema demanded we love God with our mind which. Take to be our intellect. Do you reject shema?

Paul preached in the agora of Tyranus for two years, engaged the greek philosophers everywhere he encountered them, went into the synagogues to demonstrate from the scripture how Jesus was the promised messiah. That is a lot of logic and knowledge arguments.

So point being knowledge for knowledge's sake is certainly not praiseworthy. And your point about doctrine is certainly true, but baby Christians always fall back on the knowledge argument you gave to justify their disengagement with ideas and every cultural worldview raised up against the knowledge of Christ.

These intellectual immature Christians do not do the job they were called to do as ambassadors.

My claims is fulfill shema!

Work as hard as Paul did in defending the Gospel against competing worldviews!

Study to show oneself approved being able to accurately handle the word of truth!

 

[Just_a_Joe]

That's what I've said from the beginning, friend.


That's right. I am also saying that there is no particular reason why I have to know.


And that is what I wrote in my last post before this one. There's no need for you to fume or denigrate anyone.

Sorry, I'm confused. I prefer to keep things simple and clear.

Are you saying that:
1) people get saved through faith in Jesus Christ only as explained in the New Testament of the Bible.
2) That means, the people who lived in the past and live today in the world who have never heard about Jesus at all or the right message about Jesus are going to hell?

Let's take an example of a peasant Farhad in rural Iran, who during his life of 23 years before dying only heard that the prophet Isa (Jesus) is a man like all of us and Isa has preached Islam similar to Muhammad? Therefore, he never believed in the gospel as per Christianity. Is he going to hell because he was not saved? Hid did believe in Allah and tried to live a life of a good Muslim.

It's a genuine question.

 

[Uber Genius]

Jesus gave us the example of self reduction, self sacrifice, and self minimization, all these three are examples of 'dying to yourself', one that practices these finds His burden is light, and His yoke is easy, one who does not practice His example and is heavily invested in this life finds that His yoke is heavy, and His burden impossible. Forgiveness works hand in hand with Christ's example to produce sanctification in us, this is the power. Also there are those who have life dominating sins that they need to be delivered from, but Jesus can release them from that too, or if it is caused by a spirit it can be removed. So don't give up too soon.

I was being facetious.

My point was that if we transport the "saying of Jesus," out of their place and time (context) we can produce some very abhorrent teaching on what God requires of us to gain salvation.

We want to take sections of scripture where the theme the author is focused on is salvation, rather than lift these out of context.

Romans 3-8

Or Phil. 3:4-11:

"
4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.
8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ
9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith inChrist—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead."

The passage could be summed up:

"Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ!"

When we stack that up against, " “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him," (Jn 14) we say which one is it works or faith?

In fact we have much work to do exegetically before we are able to understand the reference in John or the Mt 7:21-23 passages.

One of our interpretive rules is to interpret the unclear in light of the clear.

Is we to back to Matt, and John and look at those passages, are they talking about salvation? Is the surrounding theme to discuss how one is saved? Now look at Romans 3-8 and Galatians 3, Ephesians 2, Phil. 3, and ask the same questions.

So we seem to have a distinction between salvation and sanctification.

So is salvation conditional. One view is yes, and that condition is "confessing Jesus as Lord." Works play no role whatsoever in salvation/justification.

Now you may hold and defend an alternative view. Perhaps a pelagian or semi-pelagian (think RCC) view that it is a combination of our good works and Christ's death that are efficacious in our salvation.

I would be interested in hearing which view you hold and why.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your answer is not an answer. Yes, evasion: now you are saying that if it's not in the Bible then we don't know. Why is it not in the Bible? It's the single most important question of all. And you claim that it's the way to heaven. It's a matter of punishment or reward for eternity. And you are not sure about the way of salvation for billions and billions of people because the word of God is silent about it?

I assume you've asked God about it and He has been silent in your experience? Or have you not asked God?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sorry, I'm confused. I prefer to keep things simple and clear.

Are you saying that:
1) people get saved through faith in Jesus Christ only as explained in the New Testament of the Bible.
2) That means, the people who lived in the past and live today in the world who have never heard about Jesus at all or the right message about Jesus are going to hell?

Let's take an example of a peasant Farhad in rural Iran, who during his life of 23 years before dying only heard that the prophet Isa (Jesus) is a man like all of us and Isa has preached Islam similar to Muhammad? Therefore, he never believed in the gospel as per Christianity. Is he going to hell because he was not saved? Hid did believe in Allah and tried to live a life of a good Muslim.

It's a genuine question.

What does God's Word say about the people who lived before Jesus Christ died for sin?

And ... since we are not able to judge since only Jesus Christ knows the heart and spirit, none of us can judge your hypothetical, nor should we.

 

[ToBeLoved]

A lot of people have it wrong. Justification is at one and the same time an event, and a process. Read the Parable of the Talents and also Matt 25:31-46. The bible has to be understood in its whole context. Man will always be obligated to be righteous. The problem is that this righteousness comes only from God, and is realized only has man achieves communion with Him. This is what Jesus came to accomplish: reconciliation with and then union between man and God, as was always meant to be the right order of things. Man is just only because God grants him justice, not because He ignores man's injustice. And God loves man so much that He doesn't want man to remain a sinner; He didn't create man to be a sinner after all. He wants way more from us-and more importantly for us-than we can even begin to imagine. Either way the bible is quite full of passages that tell us that man can turn back away from God, after coming to believe, at any step along the way.

Do you understand the difference between 'justification' and 'sanctification'? Very, very important.

Justification is Jesus Christ giving us His perfect, righteousness when we are saved. Making us spotless from sin. Giving us HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. That is why the Bible says 'In Christ', 'through Christ', ect.

Sanctification is God changing us into the new creations that Christ made us through sanctification. Changing our hearts, minds and desires. Making us Christ-like. That takes a life time.

Two very different things.


Now, is justification a one time event or a process? per Romans 4, 5, and 6?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

What does God's Word say about the people who lived before Jesus Christ died for sin?

And ... since we are not able to judge since only Jesus Christ knows the heart and spirit, none of us can judge your hypothetical, nor should we.

The only thing I take from this is - you don't know. To me that means, you can't really preach the gospel to people, because you don't understand how exactly people get saved, and you believe it to be wrong to know how exactly people get saved?