Is salvation conditional?

[BrianJK]

What you consider insulting, I consider defending sound biblical doctrine from Christ and his apostles (especially Paul). Nothing is fair in life and that's a good lesson to learn and at the end of the day someone is going to either be in line with the Bible or not. Not everyone can be correct, no? So, I don't really understand what you are so offended about. I make no apologies for drawing a hard line in the sand when it comes to salvation, as Christ is the foundation of the church and salvation is the framework on which it stands. With that being said I'm merely doing my part to make sure the correct information on Biblical salvation gets spread and answered for. I don't shy away from posts, because they're too large, or continue to insist that the other party is some how dirty or misrepresenting something/someone (which I haven't done. I don't believe). So who's accusing and making insults in the end, truly? I never once misrepresented other soteriological positions. You stated your opinion and I stated mine. I believe yours and others like you who espouse a works salvation to be false (just like the Bible) whether you work to get salvation or work to maintain, its all the same. It's pretty simple, just for a simple guy such as yourself (Don't confuse this with an insult. You can look above and see for yourself that came as a description of yourself).

I would actually love to read your website, but will probably do so tomorrow as it's pretty late here on the east coast and I would want to give it the proper look through it deserves. But I'll be hesitant to post any questions in fear that the length of my concerns and evidence against them may deter you from giving any conclusive evidence for your beliefs and will most likely result in comments about me being too smart or caring too much about my theological position (That's fair, right?). Not trying to be "smart", just trying to be brutally honest. Thank you for sharing your information. I promise I will read it the first chance I get tomorrow.

One last thing, because I apparently love to be long winded. You mentioned in the previous post that I want people to consider my position, but the truth is people rarely do. You can offer up the resources or the answers and they either shy away completely or try to redirect the topic. I had one gentleman who shares your beliefs just completely ignore my posts to him. At least you still respond, that's a credit to your beliefs to some extent.

I suppose you and I have different purposes here. Given ample time, I would not be opposed to a classic, deep Calvin v Arminius debate at some point. However, my purpose in posting initially was briefly responding to the OP, rather than engaging in one of these debates again. While I am quite ready to answer why I believe that God affords all men the real opportunity to repent, for instance, I was not prepared to spend the required hours researching and responding to deeper Calvinist theology. These types of arguments are simply not part of my reason for frequenting this site.

As for misrepresentation, I understand where you are coming from. However, I come at these debates from a different angle. When discussing theology with a Calvinist, I prefer to try to represent their theology as they would when I speak, and understandably prefer speaking to those who are willing to do the same for me. Alas, this has been a rarity in my experience. In this case, I believe there is a stark difference between a God-ordained prevenient grace affording men the ability, but also the responsibility, to repent, and an earned salvation through amassed good deeds. Even if you don't believe this, I would prefer when discussing these things with you that you might acknowledge this is what I believe that Scripture teaches rather than imposing your understanding (I would say misunderstanding) of my theology on my words. I find this to be the most amiable and productive way to discuss a disagreement among brothers.
I believe we are called not to quarrel, and this is my solution to that calling.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

“And many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:11-13)

I think threads like this that question the mission and message for which Jesus gave his life are an important example of how the world having his truth for over 2000 years, is in the state it is in today .

In the beginning men full of themselves appointed and anointed themselves in the place of both Christ and God. They built an edifice to their stature, placed themselves as God able to forgive sins, and for a boon, guarantee who would arrive in Heaven. Men who's station was appointed bearing everything Jesus condemned as sin, and God taught was forbidden in his commands. From graven images, to necromancy, to worship of men as Jesus incarnate. And even claiming to be descended from the Apostles themselves.

And after that, others said that was wrong, and they took to the scriptures and decreed their own ideology and again played god. Decreeing God elected those whom he would save and therein those who were damned.

And both idolatrous institutions burned people at the stake to show those who watched who had the power to be believed.
One even convened councils to decide which of God's word was true and which was anathema. They even at one point outlawed the word of God so that only the anointed false Christs could deliver their own version of the good news.

And now here we are. Witnessing people argue that Christ's Salvation message is tentative. That eternal doesn't really mean eternal. Regardless of what Jesus taught and died to prove absolute.

It's pathetic. And yet, it is the dialog between the wheat and the tares. And in that sense it is informative.
God gave the truth of Christ and man's ego rewrites it according to his own sense of worthiness. Or lack thereof.

And all the while God watches. And truly does know his own.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Actually it's early in the night.
I can't do anything about your gall bladder pain. Maybe make you laugh, I'll do something real funny soon
Be on the look out.

GMT-5 time zone here, pain is gone (must have been the ice cream), thanks be to God.

 

[Uber Genius]

Hi UG, does trying to be "faithful to Jesus" "produce salvation" outside of Catholicism then

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Not sure if this is a serious question. Assuming it is, there are four general theories of salvation:

• Normative Pluralism: All ethical religions lead to God
• Inclusivism: Salvation is universally available, but is established by and leads to Christ
• Salvation in Christ: Agnosticism regarding those who haven't heard the gospel
• Salvation in Christ Alone: Salvation depends on explicit personal faith in Jesus Christ alone (Excerpted from "Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World")

Further inside of the Christ alone camp we would see Calvinists view salvation as having nothing to do with a person choice. God choose the elect and saves them. He does this by manipulating their wills in order to make them chose him in order to fulfill his sovereign plans. (AKA Augustinian)

Arminians believe that man, though corrupted by sin, mankind is not totally depraved. He has the rational capability to focus on evidence given by evangelist and the ability to choose to freely confess Jesus as lord and repent. (AKA semi-Augustinian)

Catholics would fall in to a semi-pelagianism view which suggest we are sinners and need God's atoning work but also need to add our own righteous works.

Pelagianism is the view that we are all born sinless. And we just need to live good lives (think Ghandhi)

Hope this helps,

 

[Uber Genius]

Thank you for those tidbits of information, do you know more.

Yum yum yum.

For the most detailed discussion on Justification by grace alone, see "The Apostolic Preaching of The Cross," by Leon. Morris. It is a marvelous discussion of the context, and figures of speech used by the NT authors regarding the relation between our works and God's work qua salvation. If you type the title and add filetypedf you are likely to find a good portion of the work online.

Brace for impact, as this is a scholarly, not a popular work.

 

[corinth77777]

One thing I know is we can have all the knowledge...we so call want...but if that knowledge has not changed us...to loving one another...what good is it?

 

[Uber Genius]

One thing I know is we can have all the knowledge...we so call want...but if that knowledge has not changed us...to loving one another...what good is it?

Jesus and the disciple didn't berate knowledge. Jesus was masterful at taking apart the various religious groups heresies using deep philosophical knowledge of the roots of the errors. Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews make appeals to study and identification of error.

Shema also calls us to love God with all our minds.

Your point about change is fair. We are to be changed by the renewing of our minds.

If there is no renewal then we are not being conformed to Jesus' likeness.

But knowledge is extremely important here. And working hard to understand what the original audience would have understood is hardly something to be mocked!

In fact many Christians are ignorant of how much effort, and how many lives have been given up in obedience to Christ, sacrificed so that we could have a testimony. To mock knowledge is to make their martyrdom for the sake of the scriptural transmission a mockery.

The scriptures are of immense value, exegesis is of immense value, hermeneutics is of immense value, post-modern reads of the scriptures (this is what it means to me given that I refuse to study deeply) is a travesty.

 

[Hallstone]

Do you really think you're been tested 24/7?

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

If it is by choice then it is a test, if it is by compulsion then it is programming. Life is made up of choices, you must choose to obey Christ. The Spirit of Christ in our hearts lessens the difficulty of the tests, and they become easier to the one who has died to himself. This is the road to sanctification by faith in the truth.

 

[Uber Genius]

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

If it is by choice then it is a test, if it is by compulsion then it is programming. Life is made up of choices, you must choose to obey Christ. The Spirit of Christ in our hearts lessens the difficulty of the tests, and they become easier to the one who has died to himself. This is the road to sanctification by faith in the truth.

Along those same lines:

"13You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its savor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

14You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a lampstand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matt. 5:13-18)

Jesus then goes on to tell us:

"28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

After several more verses all in the context of fulfilling the law, he finishes by saying,

"48Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

Matt. 5 (sermon on the mount) tells us that we must be perfect in thought, word and deed, in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

That is why I gave up Christianity, as there is hardly a law I haven't at least broken in my thought-life.

Glad to find someone who agrees with my exegesis.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Along those same lines:

"13You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its savor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

14You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a lampstand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matt. 5:13-18)

Jesus then goes on to tell us:

"28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

After several more verses all in the context of fulfilling the law, he finishes by saying,

"48Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

Matt. 5 (sermon on the mount) tells us that we must be perfect in thought, word and deed, in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

That is why I gave up Christianity, as there is hardly a law I haven't at least broken in my thought-life.

Glad to find someone who agrees with my exegesis.

Well you are not a genius if you walked away from Christ.

Read the Bible about forgiveness.

God IS fair and just to forgive. Not you, not me but God.

I'd study a little more.

How does one loose a free gift that they don't deserve? The Bible says God's gifts are irrevocable. Look it up

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

I suppose you and I have different purposes here. Given ample time, I would not be opposed to a classic, deep Calvin v Arminius debate at some point. However, my purpose in posting initially was briefly responding to the OP, rather than engaging in one of these debates again. While I am quite ready to answer why I believe that God affords all men the real opportunity to repent, for instance, I was not prepared to spend the required hours researching and responding to deeper Calvinist theology. These types of arguments are simply not part of my reason for frequenting this site.

As for misrepresentation, I understand where you are coming from. However, I come at these debates from a different angle. When discussing theology with a Calvinist, I prefer to try to represent their theology as they would when I speak, and understandably prefer speaking to those who are willing to do the same for me. Alas, this has been a rarity in my experience. In this case, I believe there is a stark difference between a God-ordained prevenient grace affording men the ability, but also the responsibility, to repent, and an earned salvation through amassed good deeds. Even if you don't believe this, I would prefer when discussing these things with you that you might acknowledge this is what I believe that Scripture teaches rather than imposing your understanding (I would say misunderstanding) of my theology on my words. I find this to be the most amiable and productive way to discuss a disagreement among brothers.
I believe we are called not to quarrel, and this is my solution to that calling.

If this was the case all along, you would have to realize that it would have been easier just to say so all along. However, I appreciate the honesty in this post and it brings more understanding to my mind about what your talking about. It is hard to do a drive by on a topic like this and not get a heavy handed response from some people. Also, I'm not a Calvinist either, although OSAS or perseverance of the saints is a part of their doctrine, I don't believe it started with them, however. I understand that you think man's responsibility to repent isn't considered a work and I disagree. However, I do believe repentance is an occurrence in a saved man prompted by Holy Spirit. I don't believe any man could repent of anything without the redeeming work of the Holy Spirit. This is why I believe so much in the ongoing sanctification process. Typical stuff, ya know? God redeems the man with the irrevocable gift of grace and gives him the Holy Spirit that will lead him to cleanse his life and establish a stronger fellowship with him. If I'm working out my own salvation it will be motivated most likely by complete and utter fear and not out of love and true obedience. I'm 30 now, and I think I've mentioned elsewhere that I've come away from alcoholism, smoking, drugs, sex addiction to name a few, but none of them were easy and I relapsed quite a few times. Plus I use to have a raging temper, but that seems to get better with age. So, I know the importance of repentance.

All that being said I'm sure I could have represented myself better and responded better to you and for that I do want to apologize. As you could probably tell by name, I've had a lot of issues with salvation even since being a child and being raised in every denomination possible. Going forward I'll try to better.

 

[St_Worm2]

Not sure if this is a serious question. Assuming it is, there are four general theories of salvation:

• Normative Pluralism: All ethical religions lead to God
• Inclusivism: Salvation is universally available, but is established by and leads to Christ
• Salvation in Christ: Agnosticism regarding those who haven't heard the gospel
• Salvation in Christ Alone: Salvation depends on explicit personal faith in Jesus Christ alone (Excerpted from "Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World")

Further inside of the Christ alone camp we would see Calvinists view salvation as having nothing to do with a person choice. God choose the elect and saves them. He does this by manipulating their wills in order to make them chose him in order to fulfill his sovereign plans. (AKA Augustinian)

Arminians believe that man, though corrupted by sin, mankind is not totally depraved. He has the rational capability to focus on evidence given by evangelist and the ability to choose to freely confess Jesus as lord and repent. (AKA semi-Augustinian)

Catholics would fall in to a semi-pelagianism view which suggest we are sinners and need God's atoning work but also need to add our own righteous works.

Pelagianism is the view that we are all born sinless. And we just need to live good lives (think Ghandhi)

Hope this helps,

Hi Uber, perhaps I misunderstood you. By, "faithful to Jesus", did you mean coming to faith in Him for the first time? To me, "Faithful to Jesus", means being obedient to Him (which cannot "produce salvation"), thus my original question to you.

Thanks!

--David

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

If it is by choice then it is a test, if it is by compulsion then it is programming. Life is made up of choices, you must choose to obey Christ. The Spirit of Christ in our hearts lessens the difficulty of the tests, and they become easier to the one who has died to himself. This is the road to sanctification by faith in the truth.

I don't completely agree with the interpretation of some of these verses.

Mat 7:22 I think it's important to realize just how many people say Lord, Lord. I want to mention a popular tv station, but I don't know if that's against the rules. What I'm trying to say that just because someone calls you king in no way means they actually respect you or assign that title to you in their hearts. Literally, anyone can call him Lord and many do. I also believe this verse points to people who do false miracles and prophesy in his name, as well as people who want to do WORKS in his name, such as for salvation

Mat 7:23 No doubt many people will hear the Lord say these dreadful things on that day, but I think it's safe to say it's not someone who believes in the OSAS doctrine taught by the Bible. Notice how he says I never knew you. He doesn't say, well, I knew you and you just couldn't keep from screwing up! Hell with ya (literally)! He legitimately never knew the person as one of his sheep, ever.

John 14:21 This is probably one of the more interesting verses you've posted. I completely agree that those who keeps Jesus commandments love him as it says, but this verse doesn't come anywhere close to implying that a failure to obey or perfectly obey (As some believe is required) will be saved/not. It's natural for the sheep to obey the shepherd. This is the work of the Holy Spirit which was not yet given to man at this point.

So, we both believe in sanctification, but I believe this is included as part of the saving power of God and the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with man from what I can tell. Good post though.


Also, how come only one of my quotes of the bible actually link to the scripture, but all of yours work. Hmm.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

I really don't understand the idea of a momentary acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice. I've been studying Christianity for 25 years. I know what they mean by "accepting" but to me it all sounds really bogus. One moment you don't believe another moment you start believing. Or pray a short prayer. Or perform baptism ritual. Etc.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I really don't understand the idea of a momentary acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice. I've been studying Christianity for 25 years. I know what they mean by "accepting" but to me it all sounds really bogus. One moment you don't believe another moment you start believing. Or pray a short prayer. Or perform baptism ritual. Etc.

Just because you don't have faith in Jesus Christ that millions of others have not had that experience.

You seem to be short sighted because you cannot imagine YOURSELF doing that, that is what is bogus to you. I would pray for more faith and for God to show you He is real. Although, I wouldn't wait til your dead, ya know.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Just because you don't have faith in Jesus Christ that millions of others have not had that experience.

You seem to be short sighted because you cannot imagine YOURSELF doing that, that is what is bogus to you. I would pray for more faith and for God to show you He is real. Although, I wouldn't wait til your dead, ya know.

Well, I understand. I just shared my honest opinion. It's a little strange to me that one moment God is super angry with you wanting to send you to a place of eternal torment or separation or annihilation. Another moment suddenly only because you prayed a prayer or performed a rite or seemingly believed in something, He's suddenly happy with you and willing to gift you pleasures of heaven. Just really simplistic and impulsive, to my understanding. Just kind of very bizarre idea, to me personally.

In a way similar to Islam, as soon as you recite the Shahada, you are a paradise bound submitted person (muslim). Same idea.

I would think that any kind of reform of soul would require at least some time. Like one of the 2 robbers who were crucified together with Christ, - just a repentance and admission of Jesus's innocence resulted in his "verily being today in paradise"? The whole life of violence and sin doesn't matter? Just one little act and that's it? What an illogical way out. And then we have the kindest the bravest the most selfless people who did not do it, welcome to hell.

Then we have the billions upon billions of people who have not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. They simply haven't got a chance.

This idea of a quick one moment salvation through a specific method, to me sounds more like selling a ticket to heaven in exchange for blind loyalty.

The idea of God's judgement of all souls without exception is a more logical and sound idea to me. Like in the ancient Egypt or in some denominations of Christianity. No matter what you believed in. No matter which prayers you prayed or which names you called upon. All your deeds are weighed on scales to determine if your good side overweighs the bad. Thus, the judgement. Very just. Very straightforward.

Salvation by faith? Hypocritical cheating!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, I understand. I just shared my honest opinion. It's a little strange to me that one moment God is super angry with you wanting to send you to a place of eternal torment or separation or annihilation. Another moment suddenly only because you prayed a prayer or performed a rite or seemingly believed in something, He's suddenly happy with you and willing to gift you pleasures of heaven. Just really simplistic and impulsive, to my understanding. Just kind of very bizarre idea, to me personally.

In a way similar to Islam, as soon as you recite the Shahada, you are a paradise bound submitted person (muslim). Same idea.

I would think that any kind of reform of soul would require at least some time. Like one of the 2 robbers who were crucified together with Christ, - just a repentance and admission of Jesus's innocence resulted in his "verily being today in paradise"? The whole life of violence and sin doesn't matter? Just one little act and that's it? What an illogical way out. And then we have the kindest the bravest the most selfless people who did not do it, welcome to hell.

Then we have the billions upon billions of people who have not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. They simply haven't got a chance.

This idea of a quick one moment salvation through a specific method, to me sounds more like selling a ticket to heaven in exchange for blind loyalty.

The idea of God's judgement of all souls without exception is a more logical and sound idea to me. Like in the ancient Egypt or in some denominations of Christianity. No matter what you believed in. No matter which prayers you prayed or which names you called upon. All your deeds are weighed on scales to determine if your good side overweighs the bad. Thus, the judgement. Very just. Very straightforward.

Salvation by faith? Hypocritical cheating!

The problem is though, is God ways are not our ways. What makes a person all of a sudden want to get married and propose to their girlfriend after they have been dating for a long time? Why does someone wake up one day and decide they want to go back to college? Or buy a house? Or loose weight? Or any other decision that a person changes their mind about? Your logic doesn't even work for most people in real life.

You think God sent His Only Begotten Son down here to suffer not to save mankind? That doesn't sound like more of a sacrifice then whether or not I pray tonight for 20 minutes?

Maybe you also do not understand a God who gives you free will. Freedom to choose for yourself, not the tyrant you seem to make Him out to be.

The problem with your scenario is that Jesus ONLY ASKS for one thing. FAITH. If God tells you what He wants to give you as a free gift that you can in no way ever earn on your own and He says it is by FAITH that we are saved, then are you so smart that you are not saved?

Why don't you take the same free gift that has been given to us? Why? If it is so easy, then why are you resisting?

Your own lack of faith is more telling then my faith.

So, the question is "Why are you not saved by faith"? And residing in paradise with God for eternity?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

The problem is though, is God ways are not our ways. What makes a person all of a sudden want to get married and propose to their girlfriend after they have been dating for a long time? Why does someone wake up one day and decide they want to go back to college? Or buy a house? Or loose weight? Or any other decision that a person changes their mind about? Your logic doesn't even work for most people in real life.

You think God sent His Only Begotten Son down here to suffer not to save mankind? That doesn't sound like more of a sacrifice then whether or not I pray tonight for 20 minutes?

Maybe you also do not understand a God who gives you free will. Freedom to choose for yourself, not the tyrant you seem to make Him out to be.

The problem with your scenario is that Jesus ONLY ASKS for one thing. FAITH. If God tells you what He wants to give you as a free gift that you can in no way ever earn on your own and He says it is by FAITH that we are saved, then are you so smart that you are not saved?

Why don't you take the same free gift that has been given to us? Why? If it is so easy, then why are you resisting?

Your own lack of faith is more telling then my faith.

So, the question is "Why are you not saved by faith"? And residing in paradise with God for eternity?

There is no will in the gospel. Bogus. Because the premise is, all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. There is no righteous, no, not one. Adam sinned and this sin was transferred to all humans, in Adam all have sinned. Your nature. Born that way.

Everybody is destined to hell by default (Adam and Eve not included). Nice choice! Free indeed.

 

[Hallstone]

Along those same lines:

"13You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its savor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

14You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a lampstand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matt. 5:13-18)

Jesus then goes on to tell us:

"28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

After several more verses all in the context of fulfilling the law, he finishes by saying,

"48Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

Matt. 5 (sermon on the mount) tells us that we must be perfect in thought, word and deed, in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

That is why I gave up Christianity, as there is hardly a law I haven't at least broken in my thought-life.

Glad to find someone who agrees with my exegesis.

Jesus gave us the example of self reduction, self sacrifice, and self minimization, all these three are examples of 'dying to yourself', one that practices these finds His burden is light, and His yoke is easy, one who does not practice His example and is heavily invested in this life finds that His yoke is heavy, and His burden impossible. Forgiveness works hand in hand with Christ's example to produce sanctification in us, this is the power. Also there are those who have life dominating sins that they need to be delivered from, but Jesus can release them from that too, or if it is caused by a spirit it can be removed. So don't give up too soon.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Jesus gave us the example of self reduction, self sacrifice, and self minimization, all these three are examples of 'dying to yourself', one that practices these finds His burden is light, and His yoke is easy, one who does not practice His example and is heavily invested in this life finds that His yoke is heavy, and His burden impossible. Forgiveness works hand in hand with Christ's example to produce sanctification in us, this is the power. Also there are those who have life dominating sins that they need to be delivered from, but Jesus can release them from that too, or if it is caused by a spirit it can be removed. So don't give up too soon.

Nice theology. In real life, very few if anybody truly practices Jesus's teachings as you described. Nobody. Common is conformity with the world to a more or less degree. In the West, in the greater conformity side of the spectrum.

Lack of faith?