Is salvation conditional?

St_Worm2 · Oct 2, 2016

Verward said:
Now I am confused, salvation is unconditional, but it is possible to fall away?

Hi Verward, that seems to be one of the $64,000 questions around here, and is certainly one topic that must occupy several hundred (if not several thousand) megabytes of storage space on CF's servers

It's my belief that the Elect 'are' the ones who persevere to the end, principally because of God's ceaseless and mighty work in their lives (IOW, He not only saves the Elect, He also sees them through this life to Glory .. i.e. Deuteronomy 31:8; Jeremiah 29:11; Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25).

The Westminster Confession states:

Chapter XVII. Of the Perseverance of the Saints

Section I.–They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Section II.–This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own freewill, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. ~Westminster Confession of Faith

The Bible has much to say about all of this, so here are several additional verses to consider:

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. ~John 5

37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. ~John 6

65 “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by the Father. ~John 6

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. ~John 10

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ~Romans 8

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. ~Romans 8*

6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. ~Philippians 1

25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. ~Hebrews 7

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. ~1 John 5

Those who do not persevere in the faith, though part of the visible church and believed to be Christians (by others, and even by themselves) never knew Him (John 17:3) nor He them (Matthew 7:22-23). IOW, they never came to saving faith/became Christians to begin with!

Yours in Christ,
David

"He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come
come to God through Him, since He always lives
to make intercession for them"
Hebrews 7:25

*(Romans 8:29-30 is known as, "The Golden Chain of Redemption")

believeume · Oct 2, 2016

PeaceByJesus said:
What do you mean you don't see a connection to what I'm saying? You objected to the number of Bible verses I posted to be read in dealing with what Scripture teaches, to which i replied such usage and reading is what preachers and seekers of Truth engaged in. Thus if you are to be one so must you, if you want to Biblically ascertain what it teaches.

Of course, if you do not care about what Scripture teaches on this issue then how else do you propose the OP question is to be answered on a Christian forum which looks to Scriptire as the basis for its beliefs? What is your purpose here?

No, I do not see that. What is your basis for determining right from wrong?

Desire.

believeume · Oct 2, 2016

Hallstone said:
The tree that was in the center of the garden was the test. The other tree was the reward.

Life is not a test.

believeume · Oct 2, 2016

Tree of Life said:
I think that all you have to do is to think carefully about your question and it will answer itself. Let me reword your questions, if I may, to draw out the obviousness of the answer:

Jesus saves us from the tyranny of sin. But does this entail actually escaping from sin?

Sin is pretty tyrannical.

St_Worm2 · Oct 2, 2016

BrianJK said:
...the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, - 1 Timothy 4:1

Hi Brian, though we know that many who never become part of the 'universal' church will choose to live out their lives as members of the 'visible' church (i.e. Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43), perhaps even believing themselves to be true Christians (i.e. Matthew 7:22-23), St. John is pretty clear about those who claim to be Christians but eventually chose to leave the church and the faith and never return.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us" ~1 John 2:19

Click to expand...

On the other hand, there are true Christians/Saints who fall into sin and away from the faith for a time but, in the end, neither totally nor finally fall away due to the decree of God (i.e. John 6:37-40; Romans 8:30) and the preserving work of the Spirit in their lives (i.e. Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25)

Yours in Christ,
David

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and
of all that He has given Me I lose nothing,
but raise it up on the last day"
Jn 6:37-39
(excerpt)

PeaceByJesus · Oct 2, 2016

What is your basis for determining right from wrong?

believeume said:
Desire.

Which is so ambiguous as a basis as to be effectively meaningless.

PeaceByJesus · Oct 2, 2016

Verward said:
Now I am confused, salvation is unconditional, but it is possible to fall away?

That is the opposite of what DoubtfulSalvation is arguing, but salvation conditional upon believing, and thus the warnings to believers as believers against departing from God in unbelief, falling from grace, drawing back in perdition, making Christ of no effect, denying the faith, and exhortations to persevere in faith.

What faith appropriates, all by God's grace, rejection of faith can forfeit, to man's blame. See post 19 by the grace of God.

Backsliders can return to Christ ("we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" [2 Corinthians 5:20] is written to Christians), thus God chastens wayward members to repentance, unto "Godly sorrow" which "worketh repentance unto salvation" (2Co. 7:10) lest they be condemned with the world, (1Co. 11:32) but Scripture warns of a condition of no return, of reprobation, in which there is no conviction unto repentance.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Which seems to be where Heb. 6 comes in with its warning of partakers of the Holy Ghost becoming nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. This feared condition is perhaps why David prayed he would be "innocent from the great transgression," (Ps. 19:13) and that despite his capital crimes, could claim "I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God." (2 Samuel 22:22)

As to how faithful one must be, Scripture speaks in a characteristic, overall sense, as seen from the above claim, that of characteristically being righteousness as seen in holy men and women of Scripture, which includes repentance when convicted of being contrary to Christ.

1Jn. 3 speaks in this characteristic, overall sense in contrasting two categories, and says he wrote such that we may know we have eternal life. (1Jn. 5:13)

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth [as a practice] righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:7-8)

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:10)

BrianJK · Oct 2, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Brian, though we know that many who were never part of the 'universal' church will choose to live out their lives as members of the 'visible' church (i.e. Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43), perhaps even believing themselves to be true Christians (i.e. Matthew 7:22-23), St. John is pretty clear about those who claim to be Christians but eventually chose to leave the church and the faith and never return.

On the other hand, there are true Christians/Saints who fall into sin and away from the faith for a time but, in the end, neither totally nor finally fall due to the decree of God (i.e. John 6:37-40; Romans 8:30) and the preserving work of the Spirit in their lives (i.e. Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25)

Yours in Christ,
David

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and
of all that He has given Me I lose nothing,
but raise it up on the last day"
Jn 6:37-39
(excerpt)

I think we'll have to disagree on the interpretation of these passages and on the doctrines of apostasy and perseverence respectively.

DoubtfulSalvation · Oct 2, 2016

BrianJK said:
I think we can disagree workout resorting to hyperbolic misrepresentation, yes?

There are too many applicable warnings in Scripture given directly to believers for apostasy to be impossible.

However, as soon as we point out how Scripture teaches this unfortunate possibility, the gigantic leap is made and we're accused of "ignoring the work of Christ on the cross" or teaching "obeying your way to salvation". Nothing could be further from the truth.

Most every warning about hell, salvation, turning away from God and people departing from the faith was made to and about the Church. Even the father of the prodigal son admitted his son was lost when away.

One cannot earn his salvation, I agree. However, salvation does require belief, which means full trust in Christ. And like the prodigal son, our Father does not force us to stay when we are foolish enough to walk away.

So the cooperation you speak of in such a sarcastic manner is our part of the covenant. If we love Jesus, we must obey Him. If we refuse, we do not love Him. Loving God is the first of the two "condensed" (if you will) commandments in the NT. If you believe it's possible to be a Christian while not loving Christ, while directly disobeying one if just two commandments Jesus Himself taught in the NT, I'd love to see your proof.

Thank you for the accusations, it really reminds of someone. Very interesting post, but you do have to realize that even if you claim that the initial earning of salvation doesn't require works, but that the maintaining of it does, you are still teaching a works salvation. The reason why you probably do not like this term is because it is directly called out as a heretical position in the NT (Only two type of salvation exist Grace Vs Works). I'm also debating on whether or not you're a sinless perfectionist. The prodigal son is a very debatable topic has their are people of differing beliefs on what's it's subject matter truly is about. However, I will not skip or dodge any parts of your posts as you were so gracious and smart to do with mine. So, to cut to the brass tax. The fact of the matter is that the prodigal son did take his inheritance early and depart from his fathers house, but one little fact seems to remain unnoticed. The father never rejected his son ship during his absence. The only thing that occurred upon the sons return was him being restored back to normal relations (fellowship) with his father, as if he never left. Something that I believe does occur in a Christians life during the time of his walk with God.

Also, I'd like to point out a fatal flaw in your belief system (one of many). Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be given back Romans 11:29. This is just one of the many verses that I've spoken about.

Do I believe you can love Christ and disobey him? Yes. Why? Because we are human and we are not perfect robots. I don't always love my neighbor as perfectly as possible, nor do I always wake up in a hop skip and a jump for how much I love God with ALL my mind, body and soul. I don't always do the best at carrying out the great commission either. Which honestly, I believe is not totally possible to obey. Some days life just isn't that perfect. Thankfully your view of salvation is false and I don't have to worry about getting kicked off the boat every time there is a bumpy wave. I can save you a bit of your own response by saying that I understand that you do all of the above things perfectly and never sin. Since that will be the bulk of your reply, I guess there is no need for you to post again, but I will leave you with another good verse or two just in case.

2 Timothy 2:13

if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Faithless.....interesting.

is there more I wonder?

John 10:29, Jesus tells us "And I give eternal life to them; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." No one includes me! Notice the picture here. You are being held in Jesus' hand, and in the Father's hand. Cup one of your hands over the other, as you would hold a frightened bird. That is the way God holds onto you

More?

The true, genuine, honest, glorious, omnipotent, eternal life giving Jesus invites you into the comfort and "peace that passeth all understanding" enjoyed ONLY by those who are the "PRESERVED in Jesus Christ" (Jude 1:1).

Jude 1:24 (KJV) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jude 1:25 (KJV) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

I'll leave this here to, but like most of the people who believe as you do, I doubt it will be read.

https://gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html

http://www.av1611.org/etern.html

St_Worm2 · Oct 2, 2016

BrianJK said:
I think we'll have to disagree on the interpretation of these passages and on the doctrines of apostasy and perseverance respectively.

As many here have done before us

I offer the post(s) above as part of my explanation of why I believe what I do, IOW, that the Elect, the Saints of God (chosen by Him from before the foundations of the world were set in place to be His sons and daughters .. Ephesians 1:4-6) 'will' persevere in the faith

In Christ,
David

believeume · Oct 2, 2016

VanillaSunflowers said:
If man could work out their own salvation then God would be in debt to man.

Jesus saves us all by himself. We do not work to keep what Jesus died to give us.
1 Peter 1

Salvation is by uncondtional grace of God the Father.

Audio Sermon Link
Seven Proofs of Unconditional Salvation

There are only two ways of eternal life - God's way or Satan's counterfeit. Either God gives eternal life as a free and unconditional gift, or man must perform conditions of faith or works to obtain it.
If man must do anything, then God's grace is ruined, man becomes his own saviour, religious financing determines eternal destiny, and Satan has robbed Jesus Christ of His glory!

In a way I see your point, I really do.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 2, 2016

believeume said:
After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

Jesus does the good work within us; So we cannot claim to be doing any kind of good work of our own power. In fact, if Jesus lives within a person (than good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life - See 2 Corinthians 13:5, 1 John 2:3-4, John 15:5); And more importantly, there is no life for a person if they do not have Christ (1 John 5:12).

But if you think Once Saved Always Saved is true or if you are not sure about it, the following verses should lay to rest that such a belief is not true.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot not walking uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

...

believeume · Oct 2, 2016

mark kennedy said:
If the conversion is genuine bearing fruit, the required effect of salvation, is inevitable. The Word is described as seed, there are actually two kinds of seed, the Word and that of Satan. When Jesus confronts the Scribes and Pharisees they say we are the seed of Abraham. Jesus tells them, no you are the seed of Satan. Speaking of Judas, Jesus says one of you is a devil. We are told early in James we are born of incorruptible seed, encouraged to receive the ingrafted Word. What does fruit have in it? Seed.

Sure it's conditional, as long as the devil doesn't snatch the Word away, the son don't wither it and the cares of this life and the decietfulness of riches doesn't chock out the Word, the new nature will bear fruit, it must. For the struggle between the old and new nature see Romans 6.

How can someone born of incorruptible seed have any conditions set?

BrianJK · Oct 2, 2016

DoubtfulSalvation said:
Thank you for the accusations, it really reminds of someone. Very interesting post, but you do have to realize that even if you claim that the initial earning of salvation doesn't require works, but that the maintaining of it does, you are still teaching a works salvation. The reason why you probably do not like this term is because it is directly called out as a heretical position in the NT (Only two type of salvation exist Grace Vs Works). I'm also debating on whether or not you're a sinless perfectionist. The prodigal son is a very debatable topic has their are people of differing beliefs on what's it's subject matter truly is about. However, I will not skip or dodge any parts of your posts as you were so gracious and smart to do with mine. So, to cut to the brass tax. The fact of the matter is that the prodigal son did take his inheritance early and depart from his fathers house, but one little fact seems to remain unnoticed. The father never rejected his son ship during his absence. The only thing that occurred upon the sons return was him being restored back to normal relations (fellowship) with his father, as if he never left. Something that I believe does occur in a Christians life during the time of his walk with God.

Also, I'd like to point out a fatal flaw in your belief system (one of many). Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be given back Romans 11:29. This is just one of the many verses that I've spoken about.

Do I believe you can love Christ and disobey him? Yes. Why? Because we are human and we are not perfect robots. I don't always love my neighbor as perfectly as possible, nor do I always wake up in a hop skip and a jump for how much I love God with ALL my mind, body and soul. I don't always do the best at carrying out the great commission either. Which honestly, I believe is not totally possible to obey. Some days life just isn't that perfect. Thankfully your view of salvation is false and I don't have to worry about getting kicked off the boat every time there is a bumpy wave. I can save you a bit of your own response by saying that I understand that you do all of the above things perfectly and never sin. Since that will be the bulk of your reply, I guess there is no need for you to post again, but I will leave you with another good verse or two just in case.

2 Timothy 2:13

if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Faithless.....interesting.

is there more I wonder?

John 10:29, Jesus tells us "And I give eternal life to them; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." No one includes me! Notice the picture here. You are being held in Jesus' hand, and in the Father's hand. Cup one of your hands over the other, as you would hold a frightened bird. That is the way God holds onto you

More?

The true, genuine, honest, glorious, omnipotent, eternal life giving Jesus invites you into the comfort and "peace that passeth all understanding" enjoyed ONLY by those who are the "PRESERVED in Jesus Christ" (Jude 1:1).

Jude 1:24 (KJV) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jude 1:25 (KJV) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

I'll leave this here to, but like most of the people who believe as you do, I doubt it will be read.

https://gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html

http://www.av1611.org/etern.html

It seems you're the one who prefers "being smart".

I'm a simpler sort of guy and prefer focusing on one or two things, rather than trying to construct paragraphs upon paragraphs in response to the same, as well as in response to Calvinist and KJV-O organizations' interpretations of soteriology.

If you'd like to discuss one point or two, I'd be glad to. Please point out your choice.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 2, 2016

believeume said:
How can someone born of incorruptible seed have any conditions set?

A person has to actually repent and accept Christ before they are born again. Also, God does not take away a person's free will after they accept Christ, too.

...

St_Worm2 · Oct 2, 2016

believeume said:
After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

Yes, in the same way that it is on the "condition" that one must hear/believe in/confess Christ (John 3:16, John 5:24; John 20:31, Romans 10:9-10). Those who are Elect become Christians AND remain Christians because of the mighty work that God both initiates and continues bring to bear in the lives of His children. IOW, God will see that true saints remain faithful to Jesus unto Glory (though we are never perfectly so unfortunately, and some far less than others).

If someone claims to be a Christian but does not remain faithful (especially at the end of their lives), then their "claim" should be understood as nothing more than that

We do not "work up" or "work at" or "work for" or "work to keep" our salvation, rather, we "work out" (Philippians 2:12-13) that which we already possess (just like we "work out" our bodies) along with the One who saved us, and "who is now at work in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure".

Our sanctification is a synergistic work, IOW, we now work with/alongside God as we grow in Christlikeness.

If we were truly saved by Him, so we will remain (according to the Bible .. i.e. John 5:24). He will never leave or forsake us, but will faithfully see all us who are His children through this life to be with Him in the next (i.e. Hebrews 7:25).

Yours and His,
David

"He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me
has eternal life & does not come into judgment,
but has passed from death to life"
John 5:24

corinth77777 · Oct 2, 2016

What type of fire would it be that didnt give off heat?

Faith is the substence of things hope for the evidence of things not seen..

Since this is true there are 2 aspects to faith ...hope and evidence....

So does faith work?...yes

So there are works that come by faith....
As oppose to works to earn salvation
Obedience to the faith is work
Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus.
And the one that knows him obeys him...obedience takes effort......

We are told to work out our salvation....
Meaning live up to our call...do the works of a saved person.

Works of righteousness....and works from righteousness are different..... one is to Earn salvation...the other is part of faith....it is our works that confirm our faith...my their fruits you shall know them.

believeume · Oct 2, 2016

PeaceByJesus said:
What is your basis for determining right from wrong?

Which is so ambiguous as a basis as to be effectively meaningless.

Not really, it's the key to the scriptures and finding the wisdom to know right from wrong.

Pro 18:1 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom.

DoubtfulSalvation · Oct 2, 2016

BrianJK said:
It seems you're the one who prefers "being smart".

I'm a simpler sort of guy and prefer focusing on one or two things, rather than trying to construct paragraphs upon paragraphs in response to the same, as well as in response to Calvinist and KJV-O organizations' interpretations of soteriology.

If you'd like to discuss one point or two, I'd be glad to. Please point out your choice.

Do I want to be smart about my theological choices in life? Yes! So, by all means accuse away. Your unwillingness to discuss the obvious flaws in your doctrine is quite frankly not what I expected. I wrote to you two paragraphs with some verses attached to support my overall opinion on salvation. See, we are talking about salvation overall, but to properly do so you have to discuss many sub points that underline each of our theological positions. Especially someone who has an extremely convoluted/over complex work for yourself salvation like you do. I know you probably will not come into my line of thinking at this point, but please don't make it this abundantly clear that you probably didn't read my post at all or any of the resources provided. I've only addressed the issues that you've highlighted since your original post. You not only do yourself an injustice by not owning up to your beliefs and you do me an injustice by not making sure I can go to heaven.

So, yes, I do believe in being thorough when it comes to something as important as salvation. I'd hoped that you would agree on that in the least. If you don't have answers to my points raised in my last post, than we have nothing left to say to each other about the topic. Oh, you can also break up my post over a couple of weeks if that is more simple. I'm willing to wait.

St_Worm2 · Oct 2, 2016

Jason0047 said:
A person has to actually repent and accept Christ before they are born again. Also, God does not take away a person's free will after they accept Christ, too.

Hi Jason, I will have to continue to disagree with this. A non-believer cannot "see" the Kingdom of God (John 3:3), nor can he/she understand and accept the the things of God because they must be "spiritually appraised" .. 1 Corinthians 2:14. How can such a person come to faith In what would they put their faith?

God must act on behalf of the "dead", IOW, on behalf of all of us (Ephesians 2:1-3) BEFORE we can choose to believe. We must be regenerated by Him (be "born again") first in order that we might see Him and His kingdom and thereby come to faith.

Regeneration MUST precede faith

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - I realize this must feel as much like beating a dead horse to you as it does to me since we both remain steadfast about what we believe, but I always feel like I need to state my position as least one more time

"As many as had been appointed
to eternal life believed"
Acts 13:48

Is salvation conditional?

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