Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

[Bible Highlighter]

YES! I believe part of trusting in Christ alone, is also the same act as turning both from unbelief, and from other idols. An idol can simply be a relationship that is not God honoring, or a Job that is sketchy, or a mentality of the accumulation of things over God. We worship idols all day long in nearly every way. So turning from them and following God is quite an event in one's life, and it transforms everything they view in the world, and their affections.

King Hezekiah destroyed the idols in his kingdom. This means he brought forth action or works to destroy idols and or so as to put them away. Hezekiah did not just sit on his hands and do nothing. Turning away from idols and to GOD requires action on our part. Yes, there are cases where some sins appear to be more passive, like "Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc." But sometimes these passive commands can be proactive commands because a believer sometimes needs to put these sins out of their lives (like with idolatry). You think the Bible labels that which is a work and what is not a work beyond human reasoning of what we think of work normally is. But if this is the case, then GOD would not be operating within the realm of logic as we know. The Lord could not have given us real world examples (parables) if such were the case. The LORD our GOD is not the author of confusion. If GOD refers to a work, that means that it is a work. We know work is anything we do on our part to do something. Even the Bible defines works as doing something. In Matthew 3: John the Baptist said to bring forth fruit (deeds) befitting of repentance, and then he mentioned how we must give our second coat to the one who has one (if we see a person in need). If we have meat (i.e. food), we are to give to the one who has none. Acts of the Apostles 26:20 says a similar thing in regards to bringing forth fruits befitting of repentance. But it uses the word "deeds" instead of the word "fruits." So fruits are deeds.

 

[createdtoworship]

King Hezekiah destroyed the idols in his kingdom. This means he brought forth action or works to destroy idols and or so as to put them away. Hezekiah did not just sit on his hands and do nothing. Turning away from idols and to GOD requires action on our part. Yes, there are cases where some sins appear to be more passive, like "Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc." But sometimes these passive commands can be proactive commands because a believer sometimes needs to put these sins out of their lives (like with idolatry). You think the Bible labels that which is a work and what is not a work beyond human reasoning of what we think of work normally is. But if this is the case, then GOD would not be operating within the realm of logic as we know. The Lord could not have given us real world examples (parables) if such were the case. The LORD our GOD is not the author of confusion. If GOD refers to a work, that means that it is a work. We know work is anything we do on our part to do something. Even the Bible defines works as doing something. In Matthew 3: John the Baptist said to bring forth fruit (deeds) befitting of repentance, and then he mentioned how we must give our second coat to the one who has one (if we see a person in need). If we have meat (i.e. food), we are to give to the one who has none. Acts of the Apostles 26:20 says a similar thing in regards to bringing forth fruits befitting of repentance. But it uses the word "deeds" instead of the word "fruits." So fruits are deeds.

I am not sure where you are going with this? Are you saying that repentance is a work? And that works save? If so then I have refuted that many times already. If we were saved by works by any definition of a work, then none of us would be saved. As most of us males, still lust on a daily basis. I am much better than a year ago, but I still notice if I see pretty woman walking by that lust ignites from out of nowhere. So it's a constant battle. I got the point at work where I can't even look up when I am walking around. So again if you can say that you don't struggle with lust at all, in any form, then perhaps you have conquered one of the ten commandments. But even if you say you have perfected it and have not lusted at all this last year, another commandment is "thou shalt not lie." So that would be a lie, and you would fail yet another commandment. With two strikes against you (and that is only two of the dozens of commandments in the Bible), how can you say that your works have given you heaven? Again if you do have salvation, if grace allowed you to be saved up to this point, and now you are on your own, you would lose salvation in a few minutes. We sin every day in millions of ways. I am a much better person than a year ago, when I was living in my flesh and fulfilling my carnal desires, but today I am more aware of my failings than ever. Because I am trying. When you start to try to live better, you see every little sin, in a much clearer mindset. If you are simply living a carnal christian life, your compromise masks all your sin and you think you are a pretty good person. But try to turn from lust or covetousness, or pride for a minute and see what I mean. You absolutely cannot be saved by works, there is absolutely no chance of it, so get it out of your mind.

 

[Danthemailman]

This is merely a denial of what James plainly says in James 2:19. For then what did James mean by James 2:19 by even the demons believe and tremble?

I already explained what James means in James 2:19. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Once again, their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

He also said faith without works is dead, too (See James 2:17), and the body without the spirit is dead to show that faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

In James 2:17, 20, 26, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims to have faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

So what did James mean by James 2:19?

I will tell you.

I already told you.

In the beginning of James 2, the brethren James was writing to had respect of persons and they were not showing favor to the poor brethren, and they were showing favor to the rich brethren instead. James was saying that by their doing this they are breaking the Royal Law of love (to love your neighbor) and as a result, they were breaking all of God's laws by doing so (James 2:10). That is why James continues on and pushes his point that faith without works is dead. He was trying to show them that not loving the poor brethren is a dead faith of belief alone-ism in the LORD and such a faith has no true works of faith in their life to show that they truly know the LORD and have a genuine faith. Their faith is dead if they do not have works of love. 1 John 3:15 says that whoever hates his brother has no eternal life abiding in him.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims to have faith but has no works (to validate their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

James is CRITICIZING or CONDEMNING having a belief alone because he compares it to that of the faith of demons. The demons believe Jesus is the Savior for mankind (just as those brethren who refused to show love to the poor brethren).

The demons believe with their head that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, but they don't believe with their heart in Jesus as their personal Savior. Big difference! Those who refuse to show love to the poor and produce no works at all have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith and are not a part of the brethren. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

James is NOT saying that the demons believe that the Savior died for angels. That is ridiculous.

I never said he did. James is also NOT saying that we are saved by works.

James is saying that the demons believe the same facts about the Savior as these brethren do. The demons believe that Jesus is the Savior for MANKIND. The brethren who showed no love to the poor brethren and their faith or belief was similar to having just a certain acknowledgment of a set of facts about Jesus and it was not heart changing kind of faith.

Only a heart changing kind of faith saves, which the demons do not have. Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart (not just in your head) that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The demons believed the same thing that the brethren believed in the sense that Jesus is the Savior of MANKIND. The demons also trembled, as well. They tremble at GOD. But again, this kind of fear does not save them.

The demons believe that "there is one God" along with believing that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, BUT the demons do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. *That is the HUGE difference that you seem to miss. I've heard works-salvationists in the past claim that the belief of Christians and demons is the same "except" for the lack of good works and cannot grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why they have so much faith in works for salvation.

Demons do not produce forth fruit or work in love to JESUS.

Because they are not born again.

Neither did the brethren who did not love the poor brethren and showed favor instead to the rich brethren unfairly. They were showing respect of persons and they hated their brothers in this case.

Which demonstrates they were not born again either. Those who merely claim to have faith but have no works are not part of the brethren. Those who hate their brother are not born again. 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 3:15 - Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

 

[createdtoworship]

I already explained what James means in James 2:19. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Once again, their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:17, 20, 26, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims to have faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

I already told you.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims to have faith but has no works (to validate their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

The demons believe with their head that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, but they don't believe with their heart in Jesus as their personal Savior. Big difference! Those who refuse to show love to the poor and produce no works at all have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith and are not a part of the brethren. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I never said he did. James is also NOT saying that we are saved by works.

Only a heart changing kind of faith saves, which the demons do not have. Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart (not just in your head) that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The demons believe that "there is one God" along with believing that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, BUT the demons do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. *That is the HUGE difference that you seem to miss. I've heard works-salvationists in the past claim that the belief of Christians and demons is the same "except" for the lack of good works and cannot grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why they have so much faith in works for salvation.

Because they are not born again.

Which demonstrates they were not born again either. Those who merely claim to have faith but have no works are not part of the brethren. Those who hate their brother are not born again. 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 3:15 - Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

I think you are overthinking James, I have read up on James from free grace theologians for years . I used to think that James was simply talking about showing your faith among other people, and that is true. However I think if you read the whole book it is sort of condemning antinomianism, or an early christian error of saying that once you are saved God no longer requires any faithfullness at all on our part. That would be the opposite error of over religiousness of the pharisees. The pharisees believed works would save, the antinomianists fell into the opposite error saying you can do anything you want and literally God will forgive you. In other words using grace as a "get out of jail free" card to cover them as far as a free fire insurance policy, but while their hearts were far from God. People do the same thing today, I think of Drug runners in mexico who bribe the catholic priests to offer pardons for their sins for money. Or many many other contortions of the Bible. Salvation is not for sale, and we don't work for it, but the book of james is sort of written against those who thought that we are saved by grace and that God didn't require repentance morally speaking. See in the Bible there is something called apostacy, and it mainly is about people who started out Christian but fell into sin. Now it was not the sin that disqualified them, but sin decieves. And sin distorts and sin contorts proper interpretation of Scripture. Since it is the Holy spirit that illuminates what scripture actually says, when we sin, we grieve the Holy Spirit and we thus become prone to deception at that point. Sin can actually cause our mental faculties to start doubting faith in Jesus, the existence of Jesus, or that Jesus died for our sins. We may have been saved a child, but later on we fell into homosexuality, adultery or drug dealing, or murder or anyone of millions of sins, and our sin started a chain reaction in our brain, then ten years later if we are asked "do you believe Jesus is God, do you believe JEsus rose again, Do you believe Jesus was perfect, and divine?" All those things they will find they start to reject later in life. I talk to athiests all the time, and some of them say they once were christian but it didn't work. I asked them, "did you repent when you were saved?" And none of them said yes. See we can believe in JEsus all we want but if we don't make it personal, trust Him alone, and cast down all our idols, we are not truly saved. We have intellectual assent in His existence, but even the demons believe that. See that is what James was getting at, he was saying that morally speaking if satan believes in JEsus, what does it make us if we believe in Him. I know you are caught up on the trust issue. But that is because you are free grace, again look at the scripture as a whole. Most of the new testament requires us to be moral. There are at least a hundred verses that require repentance at salvation. We are not saved by that morality, namely because the morality is deficient by nature. But we are required to be moral to maintain that life. Jesus always said "you are forgiven, now go and sin no more." HE was not saying, you are saved by grace now perfect your salvation with works. He was saying, I gave you salvation, now maintain it. Keep it. Hold on to it. Work it. Don't think that I will honor your works as payment for salvation, because it is never enough. But maintain your salvation, work it out. If you don't think there are plenty of verses that speak about this, feel free to browse the Lordship index....

LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

 

[Danthemailman]

I know you are caught up on the trust issue. But that is because you are free grace, again look at the scripture as a whole. Most of the new testament requires us to be moral. There are at least a hundred verses that require repentance at salvation. We are not saved by that morality, namely because the morality is deficient by nature. But we are required to be moral to maintain that life. Jesus always said "you are forgiven, now go and sin no more." HE was not saying, you are saved by grace now perfect your salvation with works. He was saying, I gave you salvation, now maintain it. Keep it. Hold on to it. Work it. Don't think that I will honor your works as payment for salvation, because it is never enough. But maintain your salvation, work it out. If you don't think there are plenty of verses that speak about this, feel free to browse the Lordship index....

I do not teach that repentance is not necessary for salvation or that believers have a license to sin. I also do not teach type 2 works salvation. Believers are to "work out" (Philippians 2:12) their salvation and not work for their salvation, which is in regards to ongoing sanctification and not maintaining salvation by works. If you wish to try and maintain your salvation based on the merits of your performance, then good luck with that.

*From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

 

[createdtoworship]

I do not teach that repentance is not necessary for salvation or that believers have a license to sin. I also do not teach type 2 works salvation. Believers are to "work out" (Philippians 2:12) their salvation and not work for their salvation, which is in regards to ongoing sanctification and not maintaining salvation by works. If you wish to try and maintain your salvation based on the merits of your performance, then good luck with that.

*From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

I don't believe salvation is by grace through faith (by itself). I believe it is by grace through faith, plus repentance. The repentance does not have to be perfect, in other words you don't have to be a perfect person, and it's never called a work in scripture, but it is part of Justification. And resultingly sanctification. But repentance is a tool we use to prepare our heart to believe by faith. It happens a little before and during faith. If we do not prepare our heart to recieve faith, we don't recieve it at all. That is what James was saying "faith without works is dead." We are saved when we believe in Jesus, and cast down all the false Gods we worship instead of Jesus. You cannot worship Jesus and money the Bible says:

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:24nkjv

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not sure where you are going with this? Are you saying that repentance is a work?

Work:

intransitive verb

1 a: to perform work or fulfill duties regularly for wages or salary works in publishing
b: to perform or carry through a task requiring sustained effort or continuous repeated operations worked all day over a hot stove
c: to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity.

Source:
Definition of WORK

The Bible describes "work" as coming from the law, and or from His commandments.

"And in every work that he began in the service of the house of God, and in the law, and in the commandments, to seek his God, he did it with all his heart, and prospered." (2 Chronicles 31:21).​

The Gentiles instinctively can do the work of the Law (without having the Law).

14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )" (Romans 2:14-15).
​

This would be the Moral Law because if you turn on the news, you would see the condemnation of murder, theft, rape, hate, and the praise of love and or good deeds towards one fellow men, etc.

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25).

James says that there is a perfect law of liberty. Clearly this is not the Law of Moses or the 613 laws given to Israel as a whole, but it is New Covenant Law given to us by Jesus Christ. For there was no liberty in the Old Law. Anyways, James says here that the person who looks into the perfect law of liberty and he continues within it, and he is not to forget about it, he is said to be a DOER of the WORK by it. Furthermore, as a result of this, he will be blessed by his deed (or work) in keeping the perfect Law of Liberty.

No doubt, the perfect Law of Liberty includes repentance.

Repentance is a command (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).
Repentance is something you do.
Repeatedly in the Scriptures God tells us "to keep," or "to do," or "walk in his commandments." Again, this would be a work.
Repentance is a work or something you do.
If you rest or sleep, this is not a work.
For the Sabbath is an example of a day whereby you do not do any servile work.
This an example of how GOD determines what is work and what is rest.
Granted, I do not believe we are under the Saturday Sabbath any longer.
For we are under a New Covenant, with new commands.

And that works save? If so then I have refuted that many times already.

Works Alone do not save. That is where you are confused. Paul was fighting against Works Alone Salvationism, and he was not fighting against Grace through faith (which is the 1st work of God that is a process that does not involve work) + Sanctification (which is the 2nd work of GOD done in a believer's life so as to help them to live a holy life).

Oh, and you did not refute that works play a part in the salvation process. I offered a list of verses that proves this, and you simply just gave them a generic label and you really did not offer a word for word commentary on explaining the alternative meaning of those verses in what they plainly say. I have updated my list on those verses that teach how Sanctification also plays a part of the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace through faith).

See my post #150.

If we were saved by works by any definition of a work, then none of us would be saved.

But I am not saying we are saved by Works Alone. There is also God's grace through faith, too. That is the point you keep ignoring when I talk about salvation.

As most of us males, still lust on a daily basis. I am much better than a year ago, but I still notice if I see pretty woman walking by that lust ignites from out of nowhere. So it's a constant battle.

We all need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Jesus said that a person can be cast bodily into hell fire for looking upon a woman in lust (Matthew 5:28-30). Your position here does not seem to be in line with simply believing the plain words of Jesus (Which is a problem because it is a violation of 1 Timothy 6:3-4, and John 12:48).

I got the point at work where I can't even look up when I am walking around. So again if you can say that you don't struggle with lust at all, in any form, then perhaps you have conquered one of the ten commandments.

Okay. First, we are not under the 10 commandments given to Israel. In breaking certain commands within the 10, you could be physically killed by God's people. Yes, 9 out of the 10 commands have carried over into the New Covenant or New Testament (the Sabbath Command being excluded), but these commands are not attached with any death penalties by God's people. We can now confess of sin, in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9) without being physically killed. It's why the Old Law is referred to as the Law of sin and death (Romans 8:2). But you paint a broad brush stroke when Paul mentions the word "law" and you think that he is referring to all forms of law (When this is not the case). Paul is referring to the Old Testament Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 laws given to Israel as a whole or contract).

Second, there are ways to overcome grievous sin for a believer; But they have to accept the true way of salvation to even begin. They can overcome grievous sin by the different methods given to us in Scripture and by their faith and trust in the LORD. For it would not be by their own power or effort that they will be able to overcome, but it will be by the power of the LORD that they will overcome. For why do you think GOD made the Israelites to fight against such great odds in battle? The Israelites should have lost because they were outnumbered many times. The same is true for the New Covenant. What you think is impossible, it is not impossible for GOD to help win in that battle. You say it is a daily battle, but you have to let go and let GOD do the fighting for you on His terms and not on your own terms.

But even if you say you have perfected it and have not lusted at all this last year, another commandment is "thou shalt not lie." So that would be a lie, and you would fail yet another commandment.

Here you go again. You think it is impossible to keep God's commands like lying. You are basing your faith on sight (experience) and not based on faith (in what the Scriptures plainly say). Even the young rich ruler said that he kept this command from his youth. Jesus did not correct him and call him a liar. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John does not mention another group of liars who are going to miss out on the Lake of Fire.

I mean, you talk of repentance as if one is turning away from sin, but you are not really giving me the impression that you can do that. Turning away from something means you do not go back to it again. You turn away and go in the other direction to never see it again.

No offense, but this is why I believe your version of repentance in turning away from sin is a false cover of holiness (unless you can prove otherwise that you uphold a standard of morality). For in the view that you have described so far, it really is not holiness and or any different than those who say they can sin and still be saved with wanton abandonment (in my opinion).

With two strikes against you (and that is only two of the dozens of commandments in the Bible), how can you say that your works have given you heaven? Again if you do have salvation, if grace allowed you to be saved up to this point, and now you are on your own, you would lose salvation in a few minutes.

You are basing your own experience as an indicator of all people, when this is not the case. Try re-reading the follow verses below.

5 "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." (Luke 1:5-6).

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Revelation 14:3-5).​

We sin every day in millions of ways.

This is your claim, and it is not the claim of the Bible.
Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 7:1, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD."

I am a much better person than a year ago, when I was living in my flesh and fulfilling my carnal desires, but today I am more aware of my failings than ever. Because I am trying. When you start to try to live better, you see every little sin, in a much clearer mindset. If you are simply living a carnal christian life, your compromise masks all your sin and you think you are a pretty good person. But try to turn from lust or covetousness, or pride for a minute and see what I mean. You absolutely cannot be saved by works, there is absolutely no chance of it, so get it out of your mind.

Again, we walk by faith and not by sight or experience. I have given you a list of verses that you still need to give a word for word commentary on. It is up to you to explain those verses in how they fit in your view. But I am not really expecting you to do that (Because they cannot be explained rationally from your belief). I know. I have talked with Eternal Security proponents and Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone Proponents for many years now. They all have failed in this task. For how can they destroy that which is true (i.e. God's Word)? They cannot.

 

[createdtoworship]

Work:

intransitive verb

1 a: to perform work or fulfill duties regularly for wages or salary works in publishing
b: to perform or carry through a task requiring sustained effort or continuous repeated operations worked all day over a hot stove
c: to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity.

Source:
Definition of WORK

The Bible describes "work" as coming from the law, and or from His commandments.

"And in every work that he began in the service of the house of God, and in the law, and in the commandments, to seek his God, he did it with all his heart, and prospered." (2 Chronicles 31:21).​

The Gentiles instinctively can do the work of the Law (without having the Law).

14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )" (Romans 2:14-15).
​

This would be the Moral Law because if you turn on the news, you would see the condemnation of murder, theft, rape, hate, and the praise of love and or good deeds towards one fellow men, etc.

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25).

James says that there is a perfect law of liberty. Clearly this is not the Law of Moses or the 613 laws given to Israel as a whole, but it is New Covenant Law given to us by Jesus Christ. For there was no liberty in the Old Law. Anyways, James says here that the person who looks into the perfect law of liberty and he continues within it, and he is not forget about it, he is said to be a DOER of the WORK by it. Furthermore, as a result of this, he will be blessed by his deed (or work) in keeping the perfect Law of Liberty.

No doubt, the perfect Law of Liberty includes repentance.

Repentance is a command (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).
Repentance is something you do.
Repeatedly in the Scriptures God tells us "to keep," or "to do," or "walk in his commandments." Again, this would be a work.
Repentance is a work or something you do.
If you rest or sleep, this is not a work.
For the Sabbath is an example of a day whereby you do not do any servile work.
This an example of how GOD determines what is work and what is rest.
Granted, I do not believe we are under the Saturday Sabbath any longer.
For we are under a New Covenant, with new commands.



Works Alone do not save. That is where you are confused. Paul was fighting against Works Alone Salvationism, and he was not fighting against Grace through faith (which is a process that does not involve work because you are being saved by God's grace in that moment), + Sanctification (which is the 2nd work of GOD done in a believer's life).

Oh, and you did not refuted that works play a part in the salvation process. I offered a list of verses that proves this, and you simply just gave them a generic label and you really did not offer a word for word commentary on explaining the alternative meaning of those verses in what they plainly say. I have updated my list on those verses that teach how Sanctification also plays a part of the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace through faith).

See my post #150.



But I am not saying we are saved by Works Alone. There is also God's grace through faith, too. That is the point you keep ignoring when I talk about salvation.



We all need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Jesus said that a person can be cast bodily into hell fire for looking upon a woman in lust (Matthew 5:28-30). Your position here does not seem to be in line with simply believing the plain words of Jesus (Which is a problem because it is a violation of 1 Timothy 6:3-4, and John 12:48).



Okay. First, we are not under the 10 commandments given to Israel. In breaking certain commands within the 10, you could be physically killed by God's people. Yes, 9 out of the 10 commands have carried over into the New Covenant or New Testament (the Sabbath Command being excluded), but these commands are not attached with any death penalties by God's people. We can now confess of sin, in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9) without being physically killed. It's why the Old Law is referred to as the Law of sin and death (Romans 8:2). But you paint a broad brush stroke when Paul mentions the word "law" and you think that he is referring to all forms of law (When this is not the case). Paul is referring to the Old Testament Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 laws given to Israel as a whole or contract).

Second, there are ways to overcome grievous sin for a believer; But they have to accept the true way of salvation to even begin. They can overcome grievous sin by the different methods given to us in Scripture and by their faith and trust in the LORD. For it would not be by their own power or effort that they will be able to overcome, but it will be by the power of the LORD that they will overcome. For why do you think GOD made the Israelites to fight against such great odds in battle? The Israelites should have lost because they were outnumbered many times. The same is true for the New Covenant. What you think is impossible, it is not impossible for GOD to help win in that battle. You say it is a daily battle, but you have to let go and let GOD do the fighting for you on His terms and not on your own terms.



Here you go again. You think it is impossible to keep God's commands like lying. You are basing your faith on sight (experience) and not based on faith (in what the Scriptures plainly say). Even the young rich ruler said that he kept this command from his youth. Jesus did not correct him and call him a liar. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John does not mention another group of liars who are going to miss out on the Lake of Fire.

I mean, you talk of repentance as if one is turning away from sin, but you are not really giving me the impression that you can do that. Turning away from something means you do not go back to it again. You turn away and go in the other direction to never see it again.

No offense, but this is why I believe your version of repentance in turning away from sin is a false cover of holiness (unless you can prove otherwise that you uphold a standard of morality). For in the view that you have described so far, it really is not holiness and or any different than those who say they can sin and still be saved with wanton abandonment (in my opinion).



You are basing your own experience as an indicator of all people, when this is not the case. Try re-reading the follow verses below.

5 "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." (Luke 1:5-6).

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Revelation 14:3-5).​

This is your claim, and it is not the claim of the Bible.
Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 7:1, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD."



Again, we walk by faith and not by sight or experience. I have given you a list of verses that you still need to give a word for word commentary on. It is up to you to explain those verses in how they fit in your view. But I am not really expecting you to do that (Because they cannot be explained rationally from your belief). I know. I have talked with Eternal Security proponents and Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone Proponents for many years now. They all have failed in this task. For how can they destroy that which is true (i.e. God's Word)? They cannot.

sir you disqualify your entire conversation by quoting a secular dictionary on the definition of work. That to me shows that you are willing to go to any extreme to make your point. So it's not worth my time to dialogue with you.
However, to be fair, if you can summarize your post in a few sentences I would love to address all your concerns.

 

[Dr. Jack]

*Sigh* Yes, I did not arrive on the planet yesterday. I am aware of the country of Greece and its people. I work with somebody from Greece. I was referring to Biblical Greek (Which is a dead language). So my point is that nobody speaks, or writes Biblical Greek. There is a difference.


Do you have a time machine to confirm that this church goes back to the early apostles?



Jesus referred to jots and tittles, which is a part of the Hebrew language and not the Greek language. So there was no LXX before Christ.



Well, if you value the Greek Orthodox Church, then you must believe as they do in regards to Soteriology. They believe we are saved by faith + works of faith like me. Granted, I do not hold to their other beliefs like their kissing of pictures of European artistic renditions of Jesus and his disciples, and their prayers to the saints. They also believe their special sacraments is a part of salvation, too (of which I also do not agree with).



I am saying for you to use the Bible in the English only because a person cannot change a word in the English like they can in Biblical Greek without it raising any alarms. We both know English, but nobody today truly knows a dead language like Biblical Greek (Despite what anyone says). For those who seek out the whole original languages as their form of interpretation usually will change what the text says in our English bibles at some point. Most in America did not seek forgiveness of their sins with the Lord Jesus by hearing the words in Biblical Greek. Neither do they read in Biblical Greek, either.

My comments have nothing to do with valuing the opinion of the Greek Orthodox Church. My
comments are simply a matter of historical record that Greek scholarship agrees with, that Koine Greek, (common Greek) was used for the extant manuscripts, and the Greeks are fully aware of the meanings of the words used.


What you fail to grasp is the idea that during the Reformation, those who read Greek, knew full well the meaning of μετανοέω was, and rendered it into a word that must have the same meaning.

As I have said repeatedly, theological views must be based upon what is said. We cannot base the meaning of a word based upon our theological view.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Sir I posted an index in post 1, this index posts over 100 verses that mention some type of turning from sin while being saved. Feel to read it. I initially started this thread in light of that article, and asked people to speak of salvation in light of that article. Now repentance is never spoken of as a work in scripture, but a gift. We are allowed to be free from addiction in Jesus name.

Here is a Lordship Index,
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

Lets talk about how those verses in the new testament depict salvation, and how we are still saved by grace through faith alone, without the addition of repentance. (which is an error many christians make).

I took it out of op I guess, I will put it back.

If that index is what is needed to be saved; no none, and I mean NO ONE is saved!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

sir you disqualify your entire conversation by quoting a secular dictionary on the definition of work. That to me shows that you are willing to go to any extreme to make your point. So it's not worth my time to dialogue with you.
However, to be fair, if you can summarize your post in a few sentences I would love to address all your concerns.

So the words of the Bible are entirely different than that of our English Dictionary?
Is not our Bible written in the English language?
If you redefine how words are defined, it raises alarm bells because you are seeking to make a word into your own imagining. For the translators chose that word in English because it has meaning. Even if the word changed a bit over time, that word still have some remnant meaning from the original meaning. While 1600's English is not always a perfect match with today's English that is spoken, it is still readable and understable to a certain degree because we can compare them with Modern Translations that say the same thing.

Anyways, Jesus said if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48). What words of Jesus can a person not receive? Simple. Matthew 5:28-30 that says that if one looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body can potentially be cast into hell fire. If one does not forgive, they will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). We can be condemned by our own words (Matthew 12:37). Yet, you and other Eternal Security proponents (or Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone Proponents) do not appear to accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, and Matthew 12:37, etc.; Many of you believe you can sin and still be saved (Which is contrary to the words of Jesus).

What is confusing about what you believe is that you appear to be for holy living in the fact that you teach that in your version of repentance is turning away from sin and towards GOD. But then you double speak and suggest that no believer can overcome looking at women in lust, and or overcome the sin of lying (Which is simply not true). So you really are not for living holy if this is the case. Your version of repentance does not really do much of anything.

 

[Dr. Jack]

So the words of the Bible are entirely different than that of our English Dictionary?
Is not our Bible written in the English language?
If you redefine how words are defined, it raises alarm bells because you are seeking to make a word into your own imagining. For the translators chose that word in English because it has meaning. Even if the word changed a bit over time, that word still have some remnant meaning from the original meaning. While 1600's English is not always a perfect match with today's English that is spoken, it is still readable and understable to a certain degree because we can compare them with Modern Translations that say the same thing.

Anyways, Jesus said if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48). What words of Jesus can a person not receive? Simple. Matthew 5:28-30 that says that if one looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body can potentially be cast into hell fire. If one does not forgive, they will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). We can be condemned by our own words (Matthew 12:37). Yet, you and other Eternal Security proponents (or Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone Proponents) do not appear to accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, and Matthew 12:37, etc.; Many of you believe you can sin and still be saved (Which is contrary to the words of Jesus).

Does this mean Paul was lost?
1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does this mean Paul was lost?
1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

*Sigh* Try reading that verse in context. Paul is talking about when he was a Pharisee.

12 "...putting me into the ministry;"
13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 1:12-14).

Paul says here he WAS BEFORE (prior, or beforehand) once a blasphemer, a persecutor, etc. and he obtained mercy because he did these things ignorantly in unbelief. This suggests that he is not that way anymore after meeting Jesus.


Side Note:

Oh, and why are you quoting the verse number at the beginning of the verse, and then the book name after the verse? Is there any particular reason for doing so that is beneficial to other readers here?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

sir you disqualify your entire conversation by quoting a secular dictionary on the definition of work. That to me shows that you are willing to go to any extreme to make your point. So it's not worth my time to dialogue with you.
However, to be fair, if you can summarize your post in a few sentences I would love to address all your concerns.

The problem is that you use only a religious dictionary and not a secular one. Yet, the religious folk are going to be more biased to their own beliefs on a particular word, when this is not the case always for a general dictionary (Unless the dictionary is quoting wrong from a religious source that is biased).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already explained what James means in James 2:19. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Once again, their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:17, 20, 26, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims to have faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

I already told you.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims to have faith but has no works (to validate their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

The demons believe with their head that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, but they don't believe with their heart in Jesus as their personal Savior. Big difference! Those who refuse to show love to the poor and produce no works at all have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith and are not a part of the brethren. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I never said he did. James is also NOT saying that we are saved by works.

Only a heart changing kind of faith saves, which the demons do not have. Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart (not just in your head) that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The demons believe that "there is one God" along with believing that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, BUT the demons do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. *That is the HUGE difference that you seem to miss. I've heard works-salvationists in the past claim that the belief of Christians and demons is the same "except" for the lack of good works and cannot grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why they have so much faith in works for salvation.

Because they are not born again.

Which demonstrates they were not born again either. Those who merely claim to have faith but have no works are not part of the brethren. Those who hate their brother are not born again. 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 3:15 - Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Again, this is not what James is saying in James 2:19. Your imagining a non-existent argument. James is not saying that demons believe in Jesus for their own personal salvation. That is not what he said. He is saying that the demons believe in the same set of facts (that Jesus is the Savior of MANKIND) that these brethren that James is writing to. In other words, James is saying that:

(a) The brethren that James is writing to who have respect of persons is believing in Jesus is the Savior of MANKIND alone (with no visible good fruit).
(b) The demons also believe Jesus is the Savior of MANKIND alone (with no visible good fruit), as well (Note: James says nothing about how the demons believe Jesus pays the price for the sin of fallen angels if they believe in Jesus; The belief alone in Jesus is in context or view of the brethren's false faith because they do not have have no strange doctrine that teaches that fallen angels are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus).​

This belief in Jesus alone, would be the kind of faith that is like that of demons. For demons also believe Jesus is the Savior of mankind. But this faith cannot save either them and neither can this kind of faith save men because faith without works is dead (James 2:17). That is the whole point by James. The brethren (James is writing to) did not show love towards the poor brethren (and so they broke the second greatest commandment). As Paul says, they deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). They did not have works of love showing they abided in the love of Christ (See: John 15:10). For the good work they do is by Jesus (See John 15:5). It is the proof that they know Jesus (who is the source of their eternal life - 1 John 5:12).

Again, what does James mean by the phrase, even the demons believe and tremble? Why is James saying this? What comparison is James making here? I believe the point James is making is that faith without works is dead. This means if we do not have works, our faith is dead and it not genuine. This would be the kind of works that are genuine and not mixed with evil works. For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

 

[Dr. Jack]

*Sigh* Trying reading that verse in context. Paul is talking about when he was a Pharisee.

12 "...putting me into the ministry;"
13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 1:12-14).

Paul says here he WAS BEFORE (prior, or beforehand) once a blasphemer, a persecutor, etc. and he obtained mercy because he did these things ignorantly in unbelief. This suggests that he is not that way anymore after meeting Jesus.


Side Note:

Oh, and why are you quoting the verse number at the beginning of the verse, and then the book name after the verse? Is there any particular reason for doing so that is beneficial to other readers here?

1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

The Bible text loads this way from the app.

To simplify this, I will do two things: 1) Identify the tense of verbs in the above text; 2) reflect how this applies to the text.

And
I thank (present tense)

Christ Jesus our Lord,
who hath enabled (used with a past participle to form perfect tenses ... an action in the past, that continues to the present)
me, for that
he counted (past tense)
me faithful,
putting me into the ministry; (past perfect)
Who was (past tense)
before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but
I obtained mercy, because (past tense)
I did it (past tense)
ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our
Lord was exceeding (past tense)
abundant with faith and love
which is (present tense)
in Christ Jesus.1:15
This is a (present tense)
faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came (past tense)
into the world to save sinners; of whom
I am chief. (present tense)
1 Timothy

Now if you read this with the tenses in place, you see the meaning present itself.

And I thank (present tense) Christ Jesus our Lord,
who hath enabled (used with a past participle to form perfect tenses ... an action in the past, that continues to the present) me, for that he counted (past tense)me faithful, putting me into the ministry; (past perfect) Who was (past tense)
before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, (past tense) because
I did it (past tense) ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our Lord was (past tense) exceeding
abundant with faith and love
which is (present tense) in Christ Jesus.1:15
This is a (present tense) faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came (past tense) into the world to save sinners; of whom
I am chief. (present tense)

Paul clearly wrote εἰμί (present tense first person, singular, indicative)

If Paul would have been using the past tense, he would have written ἤμην.

The Greek, and the English both have Paul saying that at the time of the writing of the letter (present tense) Paul said, "I am" ... referring not to the past (as he did when he used other past tense verbs), but to the present.

This aligns with what we read in Romans 7 where Paul speaks again in the present tense of his struggle with his flesh.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

The Bible text loads this way from the app.

To simplify this, I will do two things: 1) Identify the tense of verbs in the above text; 2) reflect how this applies to the text.

And
I thank (present tense)

Christ Jesus our Lord,
who hath enabled (used with a past participle to form perfect tenses ... an action in the past, that continues to the present)
me, for that
he counted (past tense)
me faithful,
putting me into the ministry; (past perfect)
Who was (past tense)
before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but
I obtained mercy, because (past tense)
I did it (past tense)
ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our
Lord was exceeding (past tense)
abundant with faith and love
which is (present tense)
in Christ Jesus.1:15
This is a (present tense)
faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came (past tense)
into the world to save sinners; of whom
I am chief. (present tense)
1 Timothy

Now if you read this with the tenses in place, you see the meaning present itself.

And I thank (present tense) Christ Jesus our Lord,
who hath enabled (used with a past participle to form perfect tenses ... an action in the past, that continues to the present) me, for that he counted (past tense)me faithful, putting me into the ministry; (past perfect) Who was (past tense)
before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, (past tense) because
I did it (past tense) ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our Lord was (past tense) exceeding
abundant with faith and love
which is (present tense) in Christ Jesus.1:15
This is a (present tense) faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came (past tense) into the world to save sinners; of whom
I am chief. (present tense)

Paul clearly wrote εἰμί (present tense first person, singular, indicative)

If Paul would have been using the past tense, he would have written ἤμην.

The Greek, and the English both have Paul saying that at the time of the writing of the letter (present tense) Paul said, "I am" ... referring not to the past (as he did when he used other past tense verbs), but to the present.

This aligns with what we read in Romans 7 where Paul speaks again in the present tense of his struggle with his flesh.

No. You cannot change the words "WAS BEFORE." That is not present tense. Paul is saying that he WAS BEFORE a sinner. So when he says, "I am the chief of sinners" this in reference to the context of his previous statement of his old past life of sin. If this is not the case, then you either:

(a) Have to ignore the words "WAS BEFORE," or
(b) You have to make the words "WAS BEFORE" say something else entirely.​

But why? Is it because you are guided this way because that is what the text says plainly? Or is it because you are trying to insert a belief into the text?

As for Romans 7:14-24:
Paul is not speaking as a present day Christian but he his recounting his experience as a Pharisee (Similar to his saying that he is the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15 in relation to his past life, cf. with 1 Timothy 1:12-14). For in Romans 7:1, Paul refers to those who know the Law. This would be the Law of Moses and not the Laws or commands that come from Jesus Christ and his followers. For in Romans 7:6 we are told to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The oldness of the letter is the Torah. Serving in newness of spirit is referring to obeying the commands in the NT that come from Jesus and His followers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

The Bible text loads this way from the app.

To simplify this, I will do two things: 1) Identify the tense of verbs in the above text; 2) reflect how this applies to the text.

And
I thank (present tense)

Christ Jesus our Lord,
who hath enabled (used with a past participle to form perfect tenses ... an action in the past, that continues to the present)
me, for that
he counted (past tense)
me faithful,
putting me into the ministry; (past perfect)
Who was (past tense)
before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but
I obtained mercy, because (past tense)
I did it (past tense)
ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our
Lord was exceeding (past tense)
abundant with faith and love
which is (present tense)
in Christ Jesus.1:15
This is a (present tense)
faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came (past tense)
into the world to save sinners; of whom
I am chief. (present tense)
1 Timothy

Now if you read this with the tenses in place, you see the meaning present itself.

And I thank (present tense) Christ Jesus our Lord,
who hath enabled (used with a past participle to form perfect tenses ... an action in the past, that continues to the present) me, for that he counted (past tense)me faithful, putting me into the ministry; (past perfect) Who was (past tense)
before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, (past tense) because
I did it (past tense) ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our Lord was (past tense) exceeding
abundant with faith and love
which is (present tense) in Christ Jesus.1:15
This is a (present tense) faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came (past tense) into the world to save sinners; of whom
I am chief. (present tense)

Paul clearly wrote εἰμί (present tense first person, singular, indicative)

If Paul would have been using the past tense, he would have written ἤμην.

The Greek, and the English both have Paul saying that at the time of the writing of the letter (present tense) Paul said, "I am" ... referring not to the past (as he did when he used other past tense verbs), but to the present.

This aligns with what we read in Romans 7 where Paul speaks again in the present tense of his struggle with his flesh.

Paul says he "WAS BEFORE" a persecutor. Do you think these words are present tense?
Is Paul still a persecutor of Christians even while he himself is a Christian?
Surely not. Paul was a persecutor of Christians before he became a Christian.

Think.

 

[Dr. Jack]

No. You cannot change the words "WAS BEFORE." That is not present tense. Paul is saying that he WAS BEFORE a sinner. So when he says, "I am the chief of sinners" this in reference to the context of his previous statement of his old past life of sin. If this is not the case, then you either:

(a) Have to ignore the words "WAS BEFORE," or
(b) You have to make the words "WAS BEFORE" say something else entirely.​

But why? Is it because you are guided this way because that is what the text says plainly? Or is it because you are trying to insert a belief into the text?

As for Romans 7:14-24:
Paul is not speaking as a present day Christian but he his recounting his experience as a Pharisee (Similar to his saying that he is the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15 in relation to his past life, cf. with 1 Timothy 1:12-14). For in Romans 7:1, Paul refers to those who know the Law. This would be the Law of Moses and not the Laws or commands that come from Jesus Christ and his followers. For in Romans 7:6 we are told to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The oldness of the letter is the Torah. Serving in newness of spirit is referring to obeying the commands in the NT that come from Jesus and His followers.

1) The English clearly says ...
1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

It doesn't say "WAS BEFORE." it says "I am" IN ENGLISH.

It also says ειμι in Greek. Both are present tense, first person, singular, present tense, in the indicitive case. ειμι in Greek, and ""I am" in English are known as state of being verbs.

When you say that Paul MEANT "WAS BEFORE" when he said, "I am" you are changing BOTH the English, and the Greek. If we are going to base our belief on what the Bible says, it says "I am" ... NOT "WAS BEFORE".

If changing the Bible is okay with you ... fine; but not me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1) The English clearly says ...
1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

It doesn't say "WAS BEFORE." it says "I am" IN ENGLISH.

It also says ειμι in Greek. Both are present tense, first person, singular, present tense, in the indicitive case. ειμι in Greek, and ""I am" in English are known as state of being verbs.

When you say that Paul MEANT "WAS BEFORE" when he said, "I am" you are changing BOTH the English, and the Greek. If we are going to base our belief on what the Bible says, it says "I am" ... NOT "WAS BEFORE".

If changing the Bible is okay with you ... fine; but not me.

One more time.

Here is the context of 1 Timothy 1:15.

12 "...putting me into the ministry;"
13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, (1 Timothy 1:12-16).​

Verses 12-13 and verse 16 is the context of 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul is clearly referring to his past old life of when he was a sinner in verse 12-13 when he said the words "me...who WAS BEFORE a blasphemer, a persecutor, injurious." Verse 16 says Paul obtained mercy (which is past tense) and not a present declaration. If Paul was declaring that he was still sinning in the present tense by his statement in 1 Timothy 1:15, then why is he talking how he obtained mercy (past tense) in verse 16? Why is Paul referring to how he WAS BEFORE (verse 13) a sinner in the fact that he was a blasphemer, a persecutor, etc.?

So then how can Paul refer to himself as the chief of sinners in the present tense if he is also saying that he had sinned in the past? Is Paul contradicting himself? No. Paul is using the grammar use of "historical present."

In English grammar, the "historical present" is the use of a verb phrase in the present tense to refer to an event that took place in the past.

"Verbs in the 'historic present' describe something that happened in the past. The present tense is used because the facts are listed as a summary, and the present tense provides a sense of urgency. This historic present tense is also found in news bulletins. The announcer may say at the start, 'Fire hits a city center building, the government defends the new minister, and in football City, United lose.'"

Source:
What Is the Historical Present Tense in English and How Is It Used?