Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

  • saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • saved by works of the law, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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    29
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FreeGrace2

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Yes.

I have pointed this out to freegrace about a hundred times, since he only quotes verse 28.
There you go, lying again.

I've repeatedly explained v.27. It's a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO.

And there are NO CONDITIONAL CLAUSES IN EITHER VERSE about never perishing. That is just a fantasy opinion.
 
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again sir, if you cannot save yourself, how can you hope that others can get saved?

False and loaded question. You don't know anything about me, and or my life. You are not God to truly know my moment by moment life and walk with God to know my standing with Him. So you automatically make a false accusation in your question so as to discredit my view of Soteriology instead of dealing with the Scriptures I put forth to you from before. You do not know my heart, thoughts, actions, and life - like God does.

You really do not have any substantial weight to your view of Soteriology other than a quick surface reading on Paul's words that speak against the "Law" and "works" in regards to Soteriology. But you have to ignore the context of which "Law" and what kind of "works" Paul is talking about. You think Paul is referring to all forms of Law and all forms of works, when this is not the case. Paul is referring to the Law of Moses (the 613 Torah Laws given to Israel), and he is not referring to the Law of Christ as mentioned in Galatians 6:2. The Law of Christ are the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

In fact, bring forth a verse or passage by Paul that talks about the "Law" and or "works" in Galatians, Corinthians, and or Romans and I can easily point to you the CONTEXT that Paul is actually referring to the Law of Moses (the 613). Better yet. you can just do it yourself. You can just read the entire chapter (in many cases) and or the previous chapter(s) to see that Paul makes a reference to the Law of Moses by the use of other words (and not the Law of Christ).

You said:
This view has no assurance.

Well, from a perspective of walking by sight and not by faith, I can imagine you can conclude this very easily. You see men sin all around you, and this is your proof. But the Scriptures say we walk by faith, and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7). From my perspective, it looks like you are building your faith upon your own outside experience for your view of Soteriology, instead of deriving your Soteriology based on what God's Word says regardless of outside experience and or what your two eyes can see.

Actually, 1 John 2:3 says,

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

In other words, if a believer finds that they are keeping His commandments, that is the assurance that they have that they know the Lord.

But the person who says they know the Lord, and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).

Also, please consider that Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Only Noah and his family were spared. Only 8 people were saved from the global flood. God destroyed the rest of the world not because they did not believe in the finish work of the cross, but because they were sinful or wicked. Peter says the global flood is an example to all who will live ungodly thereafter. In other words, Judgment is coming for those who sin (and it is irrelevant if they claim to be a believer).

Plus, imagine if you lived during Noah's time, and you doubted Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Imagine if you asked Noah for proof that a person can live righteously. Just picture yourself trying to point to the people of the world around you during that time as your proof that nobody could live righteously. In other words, this kind of like what you are doing today. This is why I am encouraging you to walk by faith in what God's Word says, and not by sight.

You said:
There is no promise that if we were to perform it, that it would even work. So hopefully this can convince you that this is the wrong view.

Your limited reason and logic alone is not enough to outwit God's Word.
The only way you can convince me is if you explain the verses that I have put forth to you using Scripture. In other words, right now 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3-4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:13, John 5:24, James 2:24, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 12:14, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 (just to name a few) all contradict your view of Soteriology.

You quoted Romans 11:6 before, that says,

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6).​

At first glance, this sounds like a slam dunk for your view of Soteriology. But if we were to read the context of Romans 9, Romans 10, and Romans 11, we learn that these three chapters are referring to the salvation of Israel as a nation. The Jews at that time were all about salvation via by the Law of Moses, and they rejected their Messiah and His grace. So in this context of view, this is what Romans 11:6 is talking about. It is referring to the Justification Process in Initial Salvation.

The verse is saying, if it be by grace, then it no more by the works of the Law of Moses for us to be saved, otherwise grace is no more grace. But if salvation is by the works of the Law of Moses, then it is no more by grace, and one's works are no longer the works of God done through them.

Keep in mind that Paul is not referring to the Law of Christ in Romans 11:6.

You said:
On the other hand I believe both in salvic repentance and assurance of salvation as the Bible teaches assurance and election as well as obedience and apostacy. It teaches all of those things.

But you never really fully explained in exact detail what repentance looks like or given an exhaustive explanation on your view of repentance. From what I have gleaned in your postings on repentance, you believe repentance is:

#1. Turning away from sin, and towards God.
But this statement is contradicted or destroyed because you said in other places that a believer can indulge in sin and still be saved, and that sin itself does not necessarily lead to a loss of salvation, and only apostasy can cause a loss of salvation through a denial of the Lord Jesus because of one sinning a lot. But sin really does not separate a believer from God in your view (from what you told me so far). So this makes it appear like you are for fighting against sin, even though you are defeated by it in this life. There is no real overcoming of serious sin (that the Bible condemns) in this life. So naturally one can sin and still be saved by your kind of belief by just believing in Jesus. So the idea of turning away from sin and towards God does not really mean anything. It is an empty and hollow statement with no substance. Unless of course I misunderstood you, and you care to explain things a little better.

#2. Obedience but not works.
You talked before about logic. Well, my friend... you just proposed something that is totally illogical. You cannot obey without works. Works is implied when you obey. Employees obey their bosses because they are doing the work that they were hired to do. Sons obey their fathers and this includes some level of work. If God calls us to obey His Word, that will naturally include works. So if God commands us to love Him, and love our neighbor (Which is a call to obedience), then we are going to do the work in loving God and loving others. So you cannot disconnect "works" from "obedience." It would be setting up a contradiction.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Actually, 1 John 2:3 says,

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
Do you believe that "knowing Him" is just another way to differentiate a believer from an unbeliever?

Have you not ever read the Scripture:

1 Cor 15:34 - Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

Keep in mind, Paul was writing to believers, and he calls some of them "ignorant of God". He did so to shame them.

In other words, if a believer finds that they are keeping His commandments, that is the assurance that they have that they know the Lord.
Have you not ever read the Scripture:

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Do you know what the red words are referring to? Assurance.

But the person who says they know the Lord, and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).
There are a lot of believers who lie and do not know the truth. Shame on them.
 
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To all:

Do not be led away by those who say you can sin and still be saved by simply having a belief alone on Jesus. The Bible gives us plenty of warnings against how sin can destroy our souls in the afterlife. Even believers who are in Christ's kingdom who work iniquity or sin will be gathered together by Christ's angels (at the Judgment) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See Matthew 13:41-42).

When we read chapters like 1 Corinthians 15 that refers to the Justification Process (i.e. Initial Salvation by God's grace or the gospel - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), we also have to read and heed those warnings in Scripture about how sin can destroy our souls like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that says,

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you..." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

As for 1 John 5:13:

This is not saying that the believers that John was talking to was sinning while they also had an assurance of their salvation. John says in 1 John 3:15 that whoever hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So no. One cannot sin and still be saved. Salvation doesn't work like that. God is good. God is holy, and just and He cannot agree with a believer's thinking that they can justify sin or evil in some way. God is good.

So we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and we cannot focus a laser beam on those verses we prefer to see to justify darkness in God's name.
 
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To all:

I also want to stress again, that John 10:27 does not say that His sheep OUGHT to follow Jesus. Jesus says that his sheep FOLLOW Him. This is the context of John 10:28 of the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand. We also see a similar thing expressed in John 5:24. Everlasting life is given to those who hear Jesus's words and believe in Him. The word "hear" obviously is in reference to keeping Christ's words and not just listening with the ear alone.

Isaiah 1:10 says,
"Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah."

It's like when a son refuses to do something for his father, and the father scolds his son by saying, "Why don't you listen to (or hear) me?" I have told you to clean your room, and you refuse to obey and or hear anything that I have to say.

Yes, it is true, that the Bible does at times distinguish between hearing and obeying the Word (like with James 1:22), but it also uses the word "hear" as in reference to obey, as well. This is the general idea behind Isaiah 1:10, and John 5:24. But if one wants to make the case that hear only means hear like with James 1:22, this really does not work because this very verse says that one is deceiving themselves if all they do is hear and they do not put into action God's Word.
 
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Also, another note on 1 John 5:13.

1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son, has life, and he that does not have the life. So we need to abide in the Son in order to have life. 1 John 2:4 says the person who says they know the Lord, and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. What is the "truth that is not in them" that is mentioned in 1 John 2:4? It's Jesus. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). For 1 John 2:3 essentially says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments. So yeah, we have to keep the Law of Christ or the commandments that come from Jesus and His followers in order to abide in Christ and have eternal life. For Jesus is the source of our eternal life. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).
 
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createdtoworship

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You have my answer. Was it not completely clear? What is there that needs to be clarified for you to understand?
well if you don't feel comfortable talking about your own salvation, but you wish to convert others, I guess there is nothing more to talk about. I have refuted every single post since page one, thats 27 pages. We can go back and forth and back and forth. But I am just letting you know that no one will believe your view works if you cannot speak of salvation practically. Demonstrating that it actually works practically in your own life. I am not saying you are not saved. I am saying if one believes they are saved by works, and they sin, then they have not saved themselves because they are wretched before the eyes of God. Anyway thank you for the debate. I probably won't open up any more of these threads due to the fact there are posters such as yourself and others that are converting unchristian views.
 
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createdtoworship

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As for your picture here that says,
"We live in a time where Satan does not hide anymore, and you still don't see him."

What did Jesus say about the devil?
Well, Jesus said this to the Pharisees:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:44-47).

Not sure you caught what Jesus said here. He said that the Pharisees where of of their father the devil, and the LUSTS of their father they will do. Meaning, lusts is in reference to various types of sins, and so the Pharisees sinned as a part of being of the devil.

Jesus said in verse 47 that the Pharisees were not of God because they do not hear His words. This means to "obey" his words. For Jesus said in verse 31, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

To continue in His Christ's words, we will obey Him. This is the context of verse 47 (Which is to hear or obey God's words).

In 1 John 3:10, John says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother"

1 John 3:8 says,
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

John 3:20 says,
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

1 John 2:4 says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

I am not sure you caught it. Jesus said in John 8, that the devil is a liar and there is no truth within him. Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life (John 14:6). Yet, 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth (TRUTH = JESUS) is not in them. Meaning, if a person breaks God's commands and they say they know Jesus, they really do not know Jesus who is the truth, and they are merely lying (like the devil lies).

Also, the devil appears as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). He has not changed this tactic. So the picture that says that the devil does not hide anymore is simply not true. He hides by deceiving others into thinking he is an angel of light when he is really the father of lies.

2 Timothy 2:26 NKJV says,
"and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

People today have been taken captive to do the devil's will by sinning. For the lusts of their father, they will do. Jesus said it to the Pharisees in John 8. For Jesus also said you will know a tree by its fruit. For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (See Matthew 7:17-20).
Sir the point of the picture is that we can be 1% wrong in salvation and miss the entire process. You can say 99 correct things and be wrong in 1 out of a 100 and still miss salvation, that was the purpose of the post. Anyway. I feel that we have talked about this topic for long enough. Thank you for the debate. And I pray that you continue to read the Bible, not books. Just read through the new testament once a year. (I even read the old testament yearly). Staying in the word will calibrate any errors we have in time. Also don't forget the power of prayer. Prayer can allow the spirit to open up our minds to the truth of the scripture. So don't forget to pray. Good bye .
 
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createdtoworship

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No, the sin of the pharisees was unbelief. They wrongly assumed doing works of righteousness would get them into heaven.

But this is what Jesus said about them:

Matt 5:20 - For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


Do you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish?

Jesus said they shall never perish.

Is it logical to believe opposite to what Jesus taught?

Obviously not.
thanks for the debate, I won't be posting here anymore. Good luck in your journeys. Stay in the word, read it regularly and pray!
 
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JLB777

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You have my answer. Was it not completely clear? What is there that needs to be clarified for you to understand?

No it wasn’t clear.


What’s clear is yes or no.


Either lost means without salvation or it doesn’t.

Either sinner means without Christ or it doesn’t.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

Only those who obey the Lord will receive eternal life at the end of the proverbial Day.



Only those hear His Voice and follow Him all their life without falling away will receive eternal life.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Only those who remain in Christ have eternal life.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Only those who endure to the end will be saved.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved
Matthew 24:13


Difficult is the way that leads to life and there are few who find it.


Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:14



JLB
 
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BNR32FAN

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No it wasn’t clear.


What’s clear is yes or no.


Either lost means without salvation or it doesn’t.

Either sinner means without Christ or it doesn’t.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

Only those who obey the Lord will receive eternal life at the end of the proverbial Day.



Only those hear His Voice and follow Him all their life without falling away will receive eternal life.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Only those who remain in Christ have eternal life.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Only those who endure to the end will be saved.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved
Matthew 24:13


Difficult is the way that leads to life and there are few who find it.


Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:14



JLB

I think a big part of the argument concerning eternal security is about who a person considers to be saved. Some are looking at this from a judgement day perspective and others from a present day perspective. This is the debate my bible study teacher and I had last Monday. He views salvation based on who’s names are written in the book of life according to God’s foreknowledge of who would believe and endure to the end. I look at it like we are still shaping what God has already foreseen by the choices we make in our life. So while he is looking at it from the end result or from God’s perspective I am looking at it from the human perspective. My position is that a person can be on the path to salvation and veer away from that path and as a result God did not write this person into the book of life. So from God’s perspective such a person never had salvation but from a human’s perspective he could’ve received salvation if he had stayed the course. I see this situation as a loss of salvation because the person has lost what he would’ve received if he had not strayed from the path. So this has helped me understand why some people cling to eternal security and why some reject it. I think this could very well explain John’s position in 1 John 2:19.

“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Perhaps John was speaking about those who are written in the book of life which would explain why those who went out were not of them. They were not of us, whom are written in the book of life, because they went out from us. Because of free will a person’s who’s name was not written in the book of life is the result of not believing and enduring to the end. Their belief and endurance is not based upon whether or not they were written in the book of life otherwise free will means nothing and God has predestined both those who will be saved and those who burn which brings up a ton of problems. Probably the biggest being that man will be judged according to whether or not he believed and endured without being capable of choosing in either case. Ultimately God would be responsible for those who will burn for having not chosen them. Not to mention that life in this world would be completely pointless if predestination is true since God could’ve just created us to be obedient and placed us directly in heaven. I believe His plan for this world was to separate those who would choose to love Him of their own free will from those who would choose not to. So I think this may be where eternal security gets mixed up because some are looking at salvation from the end status and some from the status of our walk in life.
 
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FreeGrace2

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To all:

I also want to stress again, that John 10:27 does not say that His sheep OUGHT to follow Jesus.
Apparently this poster is totally unfamiliar with the concept of a policy statement.

Just read the sign on the inside door of any restaurant restroom door. It says:
"Employees will wash their hands".

Is this a statement of FACT, or of policy? It's obviously a policy. Not fact.

So when Jesus says His sheep listen and follow Him, He is making a policy statement, since the Bible is full of believers who HAVEN'T listened or followed him.

2 Cor 12:21 - I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Paul wrote this to a church of believers. In fact, both 1 and 2 Corinthians were written TO believers, for their edification and spiritual growth.

Jesus says that his sheep FOLLOW Him. This is the context of John 10:28 of the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand.
This is patently untrue. If Jesus had made following Him a condition never perishing, this is how v.28 would have been said:

I give them eternal life, and as long as, of IF they follow Me, they shall never perish.

But He didn't add any conditions to His sheep (saved people).

It is on the basis of being given eternal life that people shall never perish. That is exactly what v.28 means.
 
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Sir the point of the picture is that we can be 1% wrong in salvation and miss the entire process.

Yes, and my reply on your photo in reference to the devil was defending the Biblical view of Soteriology (Which is Justification and Sanctification) because Jesus criticized the Pharisees in the fact that they did the lusts of their father the devil (Which is sin). John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). Yet, you say that we can indulge in sin and still be saved, and or we do not lose salvation if we sin. Jesus warned that just looking upon a woman in lust is enough to cast one's body entirely into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). I believe we have mercy and grace through confession to Jesus to help us to overcome these kinds of sins in this life (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1) . If we do not overcome, we will be unprofitable servants who will be cast into outer darkness (Where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth) (Matthew 25:30).

You said:
You can say 99 correct things and be wrong in 1 out of a 100 and still miss salvation, that was the purpose of the post.

While in principle this is a true concept (i.e. a person can be right in 99 things and be wrong in 1 out of 100), your view actually has to be the correct view of Soteriology in order for that statement to be true. But I do not believe that your view is remotely true because even your view of Justification is wrong. For it is common sense that God cannot agree with sin (Which is what your view espouses) because you say that we can sin in certain cases (or on some level) and still be saved while doing so. But making room to justify sin for the carnal Christian or on rare occasion is an excuse to justify sin all the time. There is no difference really. It would be like a person asking the Lord, "Hey, can I murder people just a little God?" In your view, you should technically be able do that because all sin is the same in the eyes of God and Christians can be carnal at times and be saved. Yet, you will object and say no Christian will murder (Making your belief inconsistent).

You said:
Anyway. I feel that we have talked about this topic for long enough. Thank you for the debate.

Sometimes we are not ready to hear what God wants to say to us. But we must put ALL of God's Word into our heart. David said, "Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You." (Psalms 119:11). We need to read the whole counsel of God's Word. Right now, you believe in a distorted view of the milk of the Word, and you reject the meat of God's Word. The meat of the Word is discerning between good and evil. We as believers are servants of a God who is fair, just, good, and holy. I just do not get that impression of your view of God in your version of Soteriology. For no standard of Morality is truly upheld in your view. In your view: A believer will always be a slave to sin in this life and never overcome serious sins until Jesus gives them a new body. This is all what the popular teachers in the churches teach these days. Sin, and be saved because you have a belief on Jesus.

I know. You said you believe in repentance for salvation, too. But your view on repentance is not a biblical one because it basically says obedience is not the same as works (Which is a contradiction), and it says that we turn away from sin and towards God (and yet a person can still sin and still be saved) which is not really turning away from sin and towards God.

And I pray that you continue to read the Bible, not books.

Well, I am not the one who spent the price of a car on Christian books in order to learn the Bible, dear sir. I was trying to get you to just read 2 Thessalonians 2 plainly at first, and you kept pointing to commentaries until you eventually read the chapter by my suggestion and you were able to see that this chapter was in fact talking to local believers. I did not read books to understand the Bible. In fact, I told you this before.

You said:
Just read through the new testament once a year. (I even read the old testament yearly). Staying in the word will calibrate any errors we have in time. Also don't forget the power of prayer. Prayer can allow the spirit to open up our minds to the truth of the scripture. So don't forget to pray. Good bye .

I believe there are many who can make the same exact claim as you do, and they will never understand the Bible's correct view on Soteriology ever in their lifetime. Why?

Because they do not believe many verses in their Bible plainly. They do not put the Word of God on the inside of them and believe it. They are not doers of the Word. They do not put God's Word entirely into practice. They just cherry pick certain verses.

I remember once, a family member of mine had told me she read the entire Bible. But when she told me, there was no passion for Jesus in her eyes or excitement when she spoke of her reading of the Bible. It seemed as if she was almost bored or unimpressed when she made that statement. Even atheists read the Bible, but they do not receive what the Bible says into their hearts. A person has to put the seed of the Word into their heart and keep it there (by truly believing it), if not, the enemy will take that seed away (and that person will reject that portion of God's Word). In other words, I believe that a believer in Jesus can reject many portions of God's Word (without them even realizing it). As a point of example: Read the commentaries again of your own Google Document you posted on Lordship Salvation. It appears that the commentator is rejecting whole swafs of Scripture and they do not think they can be applied to the life of the believer today.

As for prayer: Psalms 66:18 is key for a person in understanding His Word (as I mentioned before).

Anyways, please take no offense, but I say this all in love and with the hope that you might see what God's Word says as a whole one day.

May the Lord's love shine upon you today;
And may you please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ:

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No it wasn’t clear.
What’s clear is yes or no.
Either lost means without salvation or it doesn’t.
No it doesn't. Context determines the meaning. In the prodigal son, he REMAINED a son and the father REMAINED his father. What was "lost" was fellowship between them.

But, make it so clear that you can understand it, YES, if you mean unsaved by 'lost', then the lost need salvation. Absolutely.

Either sinner means without Christ or it doesn’t.
I am always amazed at your claims that come without ANY evidence from Scripture.

Sinner means a human being.

Rom 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

All humans have sinned. That makes all humans sinners.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
I have asked repeatedly for you to point out the actual CONDITI0NAL CLAUSE in either verse. But you haven't. Because you CAN'T.

iow, there ISN'T ANY CONDITIONAL CLAUSE in either verse.

Those who think so are simply deluded.

Only those who remain in Christ have eternal life.
Those who have been put IN Christ are sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is a GARUANTEE for the day of redemption. Doesn't sound like OSNAS to me. Not even close.

Only those who endure to the end will be saved.
Please check the context. It's about the 7 year period we call the Tribulation.

The bottom line here is that Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

But you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

I am sticking with what Jesus said. Not your opinions.
 
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To all:

Jesus told people to repent or they will perish. To repent is to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer (See: Acts of the Apostles 8:22) (See: Luke 15:18-19, and then compare with Luke 15:6, and Luke 15:10). So seeking forgiveness as per 2 Corinthians 12 like the Corinthians had done is a part of following God's will for their life. John says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). You cannot be saved and have sins that are unforgiven. Also, this confession of sin is in light or view of forsaking sin and walking in the light (See: 1 John 1:7). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For obviously forsaking sin or crying out to God for forgiveness of one's sins is a part of forsaking one's evil ways (See: Jonah 3:6-10). As a matter of fact, God turned back His wrath of judgment upon Nineveh the moment He noticed that they had forsaken their evil ways and it was not when they cried out to God for forgiveness. They had to make good on their seeking forgiveness with the Lord.
 
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