Is salvation by faith or by election?

[Albion]

Yep, salvation comes because of Faith. Whether that is because of election or a free will choice, it still is by faith, not works.

 

[Tree of Life]

Basic reading comprehension skills guy. Since regeneration is contingent upon faith, therefore faith must come before regeneration.

The bolded section is your assumption but is not taught in Scripture. I’m not surprised that Scripture + your assumptions = your conclusions.

Same with John 1:12 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." When do people receive the right to become children of God? When they believe. Therefore belief must precede regeneration.

Faith precedes adoption in a temporal and logical sense. Adoption and regeneration are different concepts.

And as I pointed out while the Calvinists view the people are born fated to eternal life, and therefore born saved, the Bible makes salvation contingent upon faith. "by grace you have been saved through faith", therefore faith precedes salvation.

I am a Calvinist. And I agree that, existentially, our faith is the condition of our justification and adoption and it is the instrument whereby we are saved. No one teaches that the elect are “born saved” in an absolute sense. The elect were at one time children of wrath. It is only when God regenerates them and gives them faith that they truly become saved.

 

[bcbsr]

The bolded section is your assumption but is not taught in Scripture. I’m not surprised that Scripture + your assumptions = your conclusions.
Faith precedes adoption in a temporal and logical sense. Adoption and regeneration are different concepts.
I am a Calvinist. And I agree that, existentially, our faith is the condition of our justification and adoption and it is the instrument whereby we are saved. No one teaches that the elect are “born saved” in an absolute sense. The elect were at one time children of wrath. It is only when God regenerates them and gives them faith that they truly become saved.

Among your many presumptions and illogic, you assume "born of God" does not refer to regeneration, and yet it is that phrase Calvinists reference to refer to regeneration. And as I have proven from scriptures, faith precedes regeneration (being "born of God")

 

[Halbhh]

That treatment (#22) amounts to using the term Election to mean something other than it does.

Did you read that and find a specific verse it misread in your view? I think it's a good explanation of what "elect" meant as written at that time, from the historical meaning. As I read that explanation, we are elect if we identify with Christ through true faith in Him, a 'free will' choice in effect. The simple point some make that faith is from God simply states the reality that God made all that is, and isn't quite to the real question here, which is to what extent God designed us to make real choices (not predetermined choices, but some kind of actual free will, by His design).

 

[Albion]

Did you read that and find a specific verse it misread in your view? I think it's a good explanation of what "elect" meant as written at that time, from the historical meaning. As I read that explanation, we are elect if we identify with Christ through true faith in Him, a 'free will' choice in effect.

No, but just think about it. To be among the elect, you have to be elected, as it were. If you make a freewill choice of what to do, that is the exact opposite of being elected, and therefore you make the word mean something it does not.

However, you are looking for something other than my own explanation, so see the following (or many other such sources)--

See biblestudytools.com

The word is absent from the Old Testament, where the related Hebrew verb (bachar) is frequent. In the New Testament it occurs 6 times (Romans 9:11; 11:5,7,28; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10). In all these places it appears to denote an act of Divine selection taking effect upon human objects so as to bring them into special and saving relations with God....

or gotquetions.org

 

[Halbhh]

No, but just think about it. To be among the elect, you have to be elected, as it were. If you make a freewill choice of what to do, that is the exact opposite of being elected, and therefore you make the word mean something it does not.

However, you are looking for something other than my own explanation, so see the following (or many other such sources)--

See biblestudytools.com

The word is absent from the Old Testament, where the related Hebrew verb (bachar) is frequent. In the New Testament it occurs 6 times (Romans 9:11; 11:5,7,28; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10). In all these places it appears to denote an act of Divine selection taking effect upon human objects so as to bring them into special and saving relations with God....

or gotquetions.org

Well, that accords perfectly with that exposition above in #22, as best I can tell, whatever flaws in my own extra thoughts regarding free will. Read that exposition above more fully above instead of my own thoughts on it. You should find it accord with what you just quoted. Admittedly there is plenty of complexity, such as the question of whether Grace from above compels faith in us, etc. But those are fairly separate questions, though connectable of course.

Consider one rather significant aspect -- the verses on salvation such as "Whosoever...".

 

[Albion]

Well, that accords perfectly with that exposition above in #22, as best I can tell, whatever flaws in my own extra thoughts regarding free will. Read that exposition above more fully above instead of my own thoughts on it. You should find it accord with what you just quoted.

In that statement (22) the focus is not on the selection of individuals, but the group of those chosen.

See here:

As Westcott notes, "God has chosen a corporate body to be included in him."

It consistently speaks of him choosing the whole church or even a people. That cannot mean that everyone in the group is assured of salvation, wouldn't you agree? So the meaning is not the same.

toe Admittedly there is plenty of complexity, such as the question of whether Grace from above compels faith in us, etc. But those are fairly separate questions, though connectable of course.

I agree.

Consider one rather significant aspect -- the verses on salvation such as "Whosoever...".

...which, if understood as I think you are doing, makes the election not an election but an opportunity, right?

And then he closes with the section entitled: Election is offered to all people

That is simply an effort to take the Biblical references to election and make them, a la Arminius, into the concept's opposite number.

 

[Halbhh]

In that statement (22) the focus is not on the selection of individuals, but the group of those chosen.

See here:


It consistently speaks of him choosing the whole church or even a people. That cannot mean that everyone in the group is assured of salvation, wouldn't you agree? So the meaning is not the same.


I agree.


...which, if understood as I think you are doing, makes the election not an election but an opportunity, right?

You made me go back to reread (again) to be sure my partial quote had included what I intended. This is the relevant section:
"...one of the theological advantages of corporate election is how it beautifully coincides with the Bible's teaching that God loves everyone, calls everyone to trust in him and be saved, and genuinely desires all to come into a saving relationship with him (e.g., Luke 19:10; John 3:16; Acts 17:30-31; 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).[24] However, only those persons who repent of their sin and place their faith in Christ enter into a saving relationship with God and are "incorporated into Christ's elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect."[13] (continues at site...)


See? To repent of your sins, and real faith, these aren't small things, like taking a few dollars out of one's pocket, but wholesale and radical. More than even just a sea change. They are profound and total. To repent of one's sins truly means to truly admit one was in the wrong, and wholly confess. That's not an opportunistic thing, but a deep change of heart.

 

[Albion]

You made me go back to reread (again) to be sure my partial quote had included what I intended. This is the relevant section:
"...one of the theological advantages of corporate election is how it beautifully coincides with the Bible's teaching that God loves everyone, calls everyone to trust in him and be saved, and genuinely desires all to come into a saving relationship with him (e.g., Luke 19:10; John 3:16; Acts 17:30-31; 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).[24] However, only those persons who repent of their sin and place their faith in Christ enter into a saving relationship with God and are "incorporated into Christ's elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect."[13] (continues at site...)


See? To repent of your sins, and real faith, these aren't small things, like taking a few dollars out of one's pocket, but wholesale and radical. More than even just a sea change. They are profound and total. To repent of one's sins truly means to truly admit one was in the wrong, and wholly confess. That's not an opportunistic little thing, but a deep change of heart.

And it is not election. It is freewill instead of election...but using the words in the Bible that describe election!

 

[Halbhh]

And it is not election. It is freewill instead of election...but using the words in the Bible that describe election!

Well, there are mysteries I think. Isaiah 55 is helpful to help remind us of the Mystery, that we cannot encompass the mind of God, ourselves define/limit Him. So, when we get near a mystery like the action of Grace on faith (whether there is or not, what is His design of the individual spirit and such), I feel often the way to go is to be satisfied with the wonderful scripture as it is, without trying to lay abstrations on it one way or the other. So, for me, I can end just at the words themselves as they are --

This really is Grace enough, our mutual redemption, the more-than-our-thoughts solution (better than my ideas or anyone's, of course) --

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


And there I can end, without thinking I know more than this.

 

[JLB777]

The scripture teaches us the truth:


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16




Calvinism teaches:


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever is predestined for salvation should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16





The choice is your to believe scripture, or believe Calvinism.





JLB

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The scripture teaches us the truth:


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Calvinism teaches:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever is predestined for salvation should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16

The choice is your to believe scripture, or believe Calvinism.
JLB

Or you could put it this way: Arminianism
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever weighs out their options and then decides to believe in Him and hopes they stay saved should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:
64“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


John 14:16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

 

[JLB777]

Or you could put it this way: Arminianism
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever weighs out their options and then decides to believe in Him and hopes they stay saved should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:
64“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


John 14:16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

You can follow Calvin or Armenian or whoever you want.

I will follow Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 3:24


again


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


again


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB

 

[Ed Parenteau]

You can follow Calvin or Armenian or whoever you want.

I will follow Christ.

JLB

I have no clue as to why you responded the way you did considering the topic of this thread, nevertheless, I will respond to what you wrote.

Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Do you keep the Commandments because they are now a part of you, the "new creation in Christ" and therefore the world and the lusts thereof are passing away from you? Or, are you a Judaizer who thinks that the keeping of the law through your own effort is what saves you?

 

[JLB777]

I have no clue as to why you responded the way you did considering the topic of this thread, nevertheless, I will respond to what you wrote.

Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Do you keep the Commandments because they are now a part of you, the "new creation in Christ" and therefore the world and the lusts thereof are passing away from you? Or, are you a Judaizer who thinks that the keeping of the law through your own effort is what saves you?

No one can keep His commandments without His Spirit, empowering the new nature.

Never the less, it is us who by the Spirit do the obeying.

He does not obey for us.


if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14


JLB

 

[JLB777]

Or, are you a Judaizer who thinks that the keeping of the law through your own effort is what saves you?

The law of Moses was nailed to the cross, having been abolished in His flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances.


having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15


again


having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14


JLB

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Never the less, it is us who by the Spirit do the obeying.

He does not obey for us.

Yes, whatever He has written on your heart, you will obey through the Spirit in the following manner.

Eph 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Tit 3: 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

 

[JLB777]

Yes, whatever He has written on your heart, you will obey through the Spirit in the following manner.

Eph 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Tit 3: 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

His commandments are the definition of love.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3


Loving God by loving our neighbor.


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-11


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




JLB

 

[Ed Parenteau]

And, so what is your point? What are you trying to say?

 

[JLB777]

And, so what is your point? What are you trying to say?

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


You can follow Calvin or Armenian or whoever you want.

I will follow Christ.




JLB