Is salvation by faith or by election?

[bcbsr]

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

 

[Albion]

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election?

If it is by faith, you may receive the gift of faith thanks to a pre-birth decision of God. Or you may be on your own to acquire saving Faith. Which of those it is varies by denomination.

But I don't know anyone who thinks that you might be among the elect but not have faith.

 

[Tree of Life]

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

God's elects people to salvation based on his free grace and not upon anything foreseen in the creature. This does not, however, mean that salvation is fatalistic. Fatalism would say that the elect are saved no matter what. But this isn't what the Bible teaches nor is it what Calvin taught nor what Calvinists believe.

God elects his people to salvation before the ages. He also ordains all the means of salvation. God ordains that his elect will hear the gospel. He ordains that they will respond with faith that he gives to them at an appropriate time. An elect person can be unsaved when considering the matter temporally. Someone only becomes saved once they repent and believe. But an elect person will certainly become saved because God will see to it that they do.

 

[Tree of Life]

On another note, this is like asking: “is salvation by faith or by the blood of Jesus?” IOW, these things include and don’t exclude each other.

 

[Job3315]

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

Just because God knows who is going to be saved, because for Him the future is history, it doesn't mean we were saved by God’s election.

 

[TuxAme]

Faith (just make sure that your faith isn't dead). Some of us are lucky and this comes easy to us- maybe we were raised in a faithful household, or someone else of faith had a profound impact on us. This comes harder to others- those who weren't born with the benefit of a faithful household, or someone whose only contact with supposedly faithful people was negative. For them, faith will be a challenge.

Regardless, God doesn't pre-ordain all of us for either heaven or hell. Our "election" simply means that God ultimately knows who will be saved. He doesn't "force" our salvation- but if we desire it, and cooperate with Him, it's our gift. Likewise, He doesn't damn people from the foundation of the world. He simply knows who will be damned.

 

[Inkfingers]

Both.

God elects who to give faith to, in an act of grace, which then results in works.

 

[Halbhh]

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

Though we cannot know everything of God's mind (Isaiah 55), still we'd expect an answer what fits more passages rather than fewer. Seemingly then--
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_election

 

[dreadnought]

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

Paul tells us to work out our own salvation (Phil 2:1-2). We all know that the Lord saves us from the messes we get ourselves into, when we repent, and we're smart enough to know he expects us to learn from our mistakes.

 

[dqhall]

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

Faith does not come by circumcision, resting on the seventh day without lifting a ten pound weight, or sacrificing animals as is required in the five books of Moses. Faith is obedience to God. Jesus taught that it is not enough to be born of the flesh. The flesh is perishable. People born of the flesh die. Jesus taught people they must be born again, if they want to be saved. One must live a better lifestyle and exhibit moral behavior. One needs to be born of the spirit. A liar cannot be telling a truth as long as he is false. God is truth. It is legal to lie in court as long as one is not under oath. I heard a plaintiff's attorney lying when I did jury duty. To lie is not right by God.

How can I know if God knew me before I was born? Most of my memories from before the age of four are gone. I definitely was not saved during my wild youth, even though I cut the grass and did some of my homework. Repentance does not come easy for people like me.

 

[bcbsr]

God's elects people to salvation based on his free grace and not upon anything foreseen in the creature. This does not, however, mean that salvation is fatalistic. Fatalism would say that the elect are saved no matter what. But this isn't what the Bible teaches nor is it what Calvin taught nor what Calvinists believe.

God elects his people to salvation before the ages. He also ordains all the means of salvation. God ordains that his elect will hear the gospel. He ordains that they will respond with faith that he gives to them at an appropriate time. An elect person can be unsaved when considering the matter temporally. Someone only becomes saved once they repent and believe. But an elect person will certainly become saved because God will see to it that they do.

You're mistaken about Calvinist. The fifth point of the TULIP acronymn indicates that the elect never lose salvation. Being a "Reformed Catholic" as you identify yourself, you're probably thinking of Lutheranism, which is different than Calvinism.

And given that fact, yes it is fatalistic, with regards to salvation. Since under Calvinism election occurs prior to birth, and that such election has nothing to do with God's foreknowledge of people's faith, therefore when a the elect are born it is ineviable they will go to heaven, and coming to faith at some point doesn't change that fact. Thus under Calvinism salvation is not contingent upon faith, though faith will occur at some point. But it doesn't affect the salvation status they already had from birth.

 

[bcbsr]

Both.

God elects who to give faith to, in an act of grace, which then results in works.

Doesn't really speak to the question I asked.

 

[bcbsr]

Just because God knows who is going to be saved, because for Him the future is history, it doesn't mean we were saved by God’s election.

My question, as stated, was directed to those who believe that election is not based upon God's foreknowledge of events.

 

[bcbsr]

On another note, this is like asking: “is salvation by faith or by the blood of Jesus?” IOW, these things include and don’t exclude each other.

Nope, it's not like that. It's a different question. And why is it the most common problem in the Christian community seem to be the lack of exercising basic reading comprehension skills?

 

[Inkfingers]

Doesn't really speak to the question I asked.

Actually it does. I gave you a fuller answer of the whole pathway.

God elects who to save, and He then saves through an act of grace - that act being the gift of faith (which then leads to works in our lives).

 

[bcbsr]

Actually it does. I gave you a fuller answer of the whole pathway.

God elects who to save, and He then saves through an act of grace - that act being the gift of faith (which then leads to works in our lives).

Well I hate to repeat the question just to show you that you didn't speak to the question, but here it is:

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

Might want to exercise some basic reading comprehension skills.

 

[Inkfingers]

Well I hate to repeat the question just to show you that you didn't speak to the question, but here it is:

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

Might want to exercise some basic reading comprehension skills.

And I answered that God elects who are saved, and then does so by granting them faith.

Might want to be less sarcastic.

 

[bcbsr]

And I answered that God elects who are saved, and then does so by granting them faith.

Might want to be less sarcastic.

Again, that doesn't answer the question I asked. And you failed to take my advice, which you discarded as "sarcasm". Still stands.

 

[Halbhh]

Is salvation by faith or by a pre-born, pre-faith election? If God elects individuals to salvation prior to their being born, prior to them believing, and if such election is not based on foreknowledge of their faith, then that would mean that people are born saved. They don't need to be saved through faith in the gospel as they would already be saved upon their birth.

In such a case, salvation is not by faith, but by election. In what way is such a concept not a denial of the gospel?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_election

.

 

[Tree of Life]

Nope, it's not like that. It's a different question. And why is it the most common problem in the Christian community seem to be the lack of exercising basic reading comprehension skills?

Well I’d rather frame it like this: “Are people saved by faith or are they saved by God?”

This question is just as ridiculous as the question in the OP, but if I must put forth an answer to it I would say that people are saved by God and that faith is God-provided evidence that He is indeed saving them.