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Is Remaining in Illness God's Will?

DMW

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Hagin said in his book 'I believe in Visions' that Jesus appeared to him and refused to heal his arm completly as a punishment (page 93).
"The doctor had told my wife that I would never be able to touch my shoulder with that arm; however, I can. The Lord told me as He sat there by my hospital bed that He would restore 99 percent of the use of that arm. He said He was going to leave that 1 percent disability to remind me not to disobey Him again, but to use the ministry He had given me."
So if one were to believe Hagin told the truth, then one would be obliged to agree that Jesus will refuse to heal 100%.

There is however a correlation between obedience and suffering. Even the Lord's table carries reminders about no judging ourselves and sickness or death. There are many reason not to receive healing, and the Bible gives those reasons. Unwillingness on God's part to give what's already offered isn't one of them.
 
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DMW

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Is it Gods will for people to be maimed or limbless? When is the last time you seen someone grow a new leg or arm? Is it lack of faith?

No this isn't God's will either, but you are right in that we see less healings in that area. A general attitude of unbelief (as expressed in this "believers" forum) is the biggest reason.

It's no secret that in third world nations where mission work and evangelism are going on that this type of miracle is much more common.

Sickness requires healing. Technically, growing a new limb is a miracle.
 
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Giver

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Yes Jesus taught us how to pray, but I believe the church has been saying the prayer Jesus taught to mean much different then what Jesus told us to pray for.

I will give you two different English translations and read them carefully. Remember it is prayer-asking God for something, not a verse telling us something.

(Matthew 6:9-11) “So you should pray like this:’ Our Father in heaven, may your name be held holy, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us. And do not put us to the test, but save us from the evil one. (Jerusalem Bible)

(Matthew 6:9-13) “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” King James version.


Jesus is telling us to pray for his kingdom to come. Where Jesus’ home is that is the kingdom of God. Jesus asked us to pray for his kingdom to come.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

Jesus then asked us to pray for his will to be done on earth, as it is in heaven.

People need to see that if God’s will is not done then it will be Satan’s will that is done. Satan is the ruler of the world, and we need to ask Jesus for his will to be done in our lives, so Satan can have no control.


 
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JimB

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No this isn't God's will either, but you are right in that we see less healings in that area. A general attitude of unbelief (as expressed in this "believers" forum) is the biggest reason.

It's no secret that in third world nations where mission work and evangelism are going on that this type of miracle is much more common.

Sickness requires healing. Technically, growing a new limb is a miracle.
It seems dishonest to me to preach something you admit you can’t live. Word are cheap. You can claim anything, but the proof of the pie is in the pudding and the proof of the pudding is in the eating. James 2.18 says as much: “Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

If you really believe God can replace a limb by an act of faith, show me; don’t lecture me. The old "proof by silence" works here too. If you say that Jesus never turned anyone away unhealed or never refused to heal someone who came to him for healing because the scripture is silent on the subject and, therefore, that's "proof" that all who come to Jesus (in faith, of course) will be healed, then I can use that same standard to say that Jesus never replaced an amputated limb because there is no record in scripture that he ever did. It’s a silly argument on both sides. We do not know whether Jesus ever replaced an amputated limb or not because, according to John’s testimony, there are many things that Jesus did that are not recorded in scripture—There many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. (John 21.25). :)
 
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Alive_Again

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Jesus came to destroy the works of darkness. He did so by teaching, healing and delivering (not to mention the cross and resurrection!).

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:18-19

Anointed Me to preach the gospel or "good news"
He sent Me to heal...
To preach deliverance... (including spirits of infirmity)
Recovering of sight...
To set at liberty


The fulfillment is right here and although some extra thing or two are included, this passage fulfills the Isaiah promise.

Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
Luke 7:22

Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
Psalms 103:2-5

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:8

When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Matt 8:16-17

I was listening to Kenneth Hagin recently was said that the same word used in the Hebrew for "borne" is the same word used in the passage in Leviticus about the scape goat carrying the sins.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:4-5

Some would argue that the words "griefs" and "sorrows" are not about healing, but it is obvious in Matthew it is talking about healing and deliverance - literally destroying the works of the devil.

We're told He prefers no person over another.

We're told IF we abide, we can ask what WE will.

If we're not healed, then it either means we don't have faith and then believe, we're ignorant of the benefit, OR we have sin in our life that we need to repent of. Sometimes the result of this is carried over from our unredeemed life.

I personally believe that if we believe that the benefit is ours and we're still not seeing the manifestation, then God is trying to do something in our individual walks(if we let Him) that will enhance our relationship to enable us to receive and be healed. It seems that sometimes this takes years. He works to engender trust and faith, is loving us into repentance, etc. Every day's obedience takes us closer to that goal (which is positionally ours).

Since matters of repentance are not broadcast by God, sometimes He lets His people come home. He knows what is best and He suffers LONG with us. We shouldn't ever make it an issue of "he/she didn't have enough faith or faith at all", because it's more complicated than that. People terminally ill want with all their hearts to be made whole and most probably approach the Word more earnestly than many.

God help us to have a pure walk so we can partake and be made whole!
 
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Alive_Again

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Was quoting: He said He was going to leave that 1 percent disability to remind me not to disobey Him again, but to use the ministry He had given me."

So if one were to believe Hagin told the truth, then one would be obliged to agree that Jesus will refuse to heal 100%.

The one percent is barely noticeable. We can draw a conclusion that if people get out of the will of God or do not exercise their ministry, than the enemy has access to us, of which needs to be repented of.

I played guitar in the music ministry and paid a big price for my disobedience.

I received a huge check in my spirit before playing the company football game back in 1984
. I played anyway and the QB had a rocket arm. The last play of the game drilled a pass hitting the end of my middle finger of my right hand (breaking it). I would say that the Lord healed it 97% and I only notice any difference at all when it is cold. I can also see that it is not perfectly straight. I had to wait a period for the healing to take place too. I believe the Lord sped up the process. I also believe He left it the way it is also as a reminder (which I rarely think of).

Thanks for the reminder though because that really sucked.
 
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JimB

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Was quoting: He said He was going to leave that 1 percent disability to remind me not to disobey Him again, but to use the ministry He had given me."



The one percent is barely noticeable. We can draw a conclusion that if people get out of the will of God or do not exercise their ministry, than the enemy has access to us, of which needs to be repented of.

I played guitar in the music ministry and paid a big price for my disobedience.

I received a huge check in my spirit before playing the company football game back in 1984. I played anyway and the QB had a rocket arm. The last play of the game drilled a pass hitting the end of my middle finger of my right hand (breaking it). I would say that the Lord healed it 97% and I only notice any difference at all when it is cold. I can also see that it is not perfectly straight. I had to wait a period for the healing to take place too. I believe the Lord sped up the process. I also believe He left it the way it is also as a reminder (which I rarely think of).

Thanks for the reminder though because that really sucked.

Sorry, AA, I find this idea, um, unscriptural. If God heals us only 97% of the way, even 99%, it seems to me that we are still in need of healing. We are, in fact, unhealed. To borrow an argument from silence, where exactly in the Bible was anyone healed only partially who was not healed completely? To "make whole" is no halfway measure. IMO. :)
 
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Giver

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Sorry, AA, I find this idea, um, unscriptural. If God heals us only 97% of the way, even 99%, it seems to me that we are still in need of healing. We are, in fact, unhealed. To borrow an argument from silence, where exactly in the Bible was anyone healed only partially who was not healed completely? To "make whole" is no halfway measure. IMO. :)

I agree with you, but it is just my opinion coming from experiencing how God has healed those I have prayed for.

If anything the healing made the problem much better then normal.

 
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Faulty

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Was quoting: He said He was going to leave that 1 percent disability to remind me not to disobey Him again, but to use the ministry He had given me."



The one percent is barely noticeable. We can draw a conclusion that if people get out of the will of God or do not exercise their ministry, than the enemy has access to us, of which needs to be repented of.


Noticeable or not, it's still less than a complete healing. Besides, Hagin said it was still noticeable to him at times, even years later. That was actually in the next sentence in the book where I stopped quoting, as I didn't think I'd need it, but here it is:
(My arm gives me only the slightest amount of trouble. No one can ever tell that anything is wrong, and most of the time I have no difficulty with it.)
Once you open that door to say that God will refuse to heal 1% at times, then where does it stop, at 1%, 5%, 25%, 95%, 99%, even 100%? Who knows? At that point it's all speculation.
 
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Faulty

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No one would be obliged to believe anything here, since it was Brother Hagin's personal experience and not the Bible. But as someone who has studied under Brother Hagin's ministry for years, I do respect what he says.

This isn't a Hagin teaching where he's reading some verses and drawing a conclusion, and you come to a different conclusion than he did on these verses.

This is Hagin declaring that God in the flesh came to him in person and sat down next to him on the hospital bed and said quote. Either he was telling the truth about what Jesus said and what Jesus says is always authoritative, or he was not telling the truth.

If Jesus declared he would not heal someone completely, then the result is you have to believe sometimes Jesus will not heal 100%. After all, everything he says, by default, is God's word.


Please note that the Lord told him that 1% would be left as a reminder, not a punishment. Nor did He tell him it wasn't His will to heal. In fact, he was healed.

Not according to his own words in the book. I posted his own words on the matter in my last post. He wasn't healed.


When Jesus was resurrected from the dead, he still had nail scars. I guess this must mean it wasn't God's will to heal Him. Paul too, bore scars on his body from beatings, but was raised from a stoning to preach. God must have been punishing him too.

Absurd. Hagin said Jesus told him it was for this reason. I didn't say it, he did. If you think that means the Father was punishing Jesus with the scars, take it up with Hagin. It was his claim, not mine.
 
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Faulty

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There is however a correlation between obedience and suffering. Even the Lord's table carries reminders about no judging ourselves and sickness or death. There are many reason not to receive healing, and the Bible gives those reasons. Unwillingness on God's part to give what's already offered isn't one of them.

And yet if Hagin was telling the truth, then Jesus was indeed unwilling to heal him completely, and the purpose cited was not that Hagin was "receiving it", so you can't use that excuse here. So, it seems you are concluding Hagin wasn't telling the truth since you claim what he said Jesus told him personally was incorrect.

Besides, if Hagin wasn't healed because he wasn't obedient, and the injury persisted throughout his life, then the conclusion is that he was disobedient throughout his life.
 
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Alive_Again

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Sorry, AA, I find this idea, um, unscriptural. If God heals us only 97% of the way, even 99%, it seems to me that we are still in need of healing. We are, in fact, unhealed. To borrow an argument from silence, where exactly in the Bible was anyone healed only partially who was not healed completely? To "make whole" is no halfway measure.

Just because some people are "every whit whole" doesn't mean everyone is. Also, just because God touches a person in one area, does not mean they receive their healings all at once. Healing is part of your inheritance. You'll notice in the Book of Joshua, that their battles were done in sequence. It required obedience on their part to do whatever God told them to do. God actually spoke then and He does today too. They didn't take ALL of the land all at once either.

In my case, I was disobedient and I paid a price for that.
In the same way, Joshua and the OT believers didn't come through without some losses. I couldn't possibly tell you everything regarding all of this, but the Word does provide a general precedent about the land you take and battles going both ways. Someone is every whit whole, we can't conclude that He healed their entire bodies (except for what they came to Him for). We'd like to think that, but we just don't know. Furthermore, we're talking about the price of disobedience, not "partial blessings of obedience".
 
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Strong in Him

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Was quoting: He said He was going to leave that 1 percent disability to remind me not to disobey Him again, but to use the ministry He had given me."



The one percent is barely noticeable. We can draw a conclusion that if people get out of the will of God or do not exercise their ministry, than the enemy has access to us, of which needs to be repented of.

I played guitar in the music ministry and paid a big price for my disobedience.

I received a huge check in my spirit before playing the company football game back in 1984. I played anyway and the QB had a rocket arm. The last play of the game drilled a pass hitting the end of my middle finger of my right hand (breaking it). I would say that the Lord healed it 97% and I only notice any difference at all when it is cold. I can also see that it is not perfectly straight. I had to wait a period for the healing to take place too.

So you're saying that God can send sickness as a punishment?
And that if we are not healed completely from an illness, or injury, it's because the Lord wants to remind us of our sin?

Oh boy. :doh:
 
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Alive_Again

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So you're saying that God can send sickness as a punishment?
And that if we are not healed completely from an illness, or injury, it's because the Lord wants to remind us of our sin?

I didn't say that at all.

I believe it's more correct to say that He "permits" sickness. It's not of Him, but the enemy brings it. God set forth blessing and cursing. It's our choice to choose His way.

In Hagin's case, he got outside of the will of God, and it brought lack, and eventually physical harm.

I think in Hagin's case as far as the 100% goes, that he was fully healed, but was only a slight reminder at certain times that it was not 100% I don't think there was any pain and there is no pain in my case either. It's just enough to remind me of what happened.

There are many more things He allows in other areas of our lives to remind us of the warfare and our place in it. There is a command to diligence and if we don't do it, then sometimes He allows us to pay a price.
 
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Strong in Him

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I didn't say that at all.

Ok, sorry.

I believe it's more correct to say that He "permits" sickness. It's not of Him, but the enemy brings it.


:amen:
And I'm very pleased to see that a WOF person can agree with me. When I used to write that God can sometimes permit sickness to remain I got jumped on, metaphorically, and told in no uncertain terms that God would do no such thing. I was told that saying that God permitted sickness was the same as saying that he sent it, and even told once that if that was the kind of faith I had, it was no wonder that I wasn't healed.
 
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Faulty

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I think in Hagin's case as far as the 100% goes, that he was fully healed, but was only a slight reminder at certain times that it was not 100%

Let's not lose sight of something here. No matter how many ways you do the math, it's not 99% and fully healed. This isn't something you just get to round up and say "close enough". Hagin said God refused to heal him completely. Period.
 
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