Is Purgatory real?

The Times · Jun 22, 2017

Light of the East said:
Sorry, Calvinist's didn't exist at the time of the Apostles and the understanding of the Orthodox view of what a covenant means. A contract has conditions and throughout scriptures God declares if you do this, then I will honour that and if you do that, then I will discharge to you my promises. Conditions which are tied to the hope of receiving the promises need to be complied with, in the same manner a subject needs to comply within the legalities of an agreed contract between two parties.

Covenant relationships also have conditions. Think of the vows that are made between husband and wife. The vows are promises made to each other which define the boundaries of the relationship. For instance, both spouses promise to love each other solely, to share their body with no one else. The corellary of that would be "Thou shalt have no other gods....."

In Deuteronomy 28, you can see what is called the "blessings and curses" of the covenant relationship. God tells the Israelites that if they keep the conditions of the covenant (vows) He will bless them. If not, He enumerates many curses which will fall on them.

The same is true with the marriage. Keep the marriage vows and you have blessing. Break them and the cookies hit the fan.

A contract is a conditional agreement between two parties, who is God and man. Throughout scripture God declares the conditions of his contract/covenant, as follows.....

And a covenant is also a conditional agreement, but the difference is that in a contract, as I showed you by my example of buying my house (to which you gave no answer), in a contract, you have no personal interest in the other person. It is business. A covenant is the giving of one person to another. It is intimate.

It is a contract between God and man and there is a ransom that was paid in full, in initiating the new contract which is made legal in the blood of the Lamb of God. Within this contract, it includes a real and intangible relationship with the Son.....

I'm sorry, but this is the language of Calvinism.

The covenant is not within the Trinity between God the Father and God the Son as you claim, rather the contract is between God the Father and man, through the Son and the Holy Ghost (John 3:5). We are in contract with the other party, who is the one Triune God.

Again, this is exactly how Calvinists write about the covenant. Everything I have read which is Orthodox and refers to our salvation speaks of the healing of our natures, not the payment of some legal fine.

We are Christ's subjects within the conditions of the blood contract, until Christ delivers all those who are written in the book of life to God the Father, then he also becomes subject to the Father. We are Christ's bride, but Paul also writes that we are his prisoners who need to abide in him, as would a bride need to abide in her husband. The act of a marriage in Jewish framework is a contract in itself.

You really don't "hear" yourself speaking. I've been there and done that, in terms of believing what you are preaching. It is Calvinism. You can claim it is Orthodoxy, but when I read the Early Fathers speaking of the Eucharist as the "Medicine of Immortality," I know they are not talking about some legal contract with God. They are speaking of healing a broken nature and our relationship being healed.

Light of the East said:
Covenant relationships also have conditions. Think of the vows that are made between husband and wife. The vows are promises made to each other which define the boundaries of the relationship. For instance, both spouses promise to love each other solely, to share their body with no one else. The corellary of that would be "Thou shalt have no other gods....."

In Deuteronomy 28, you can see what is called the "blessings and curses" of the covenant relationship. God tells the Israelites that if they keep the conditions of the covenant (vows) He will bless them. If not, He enumerates many curses which will fall on them.

The same is true with the marriage. Keep the marriage vows and you have blessing. Break them and the cookies hit the fan.

You can water wash it how you want to, yet within a Jewish framework of marriage, there exists a legally binding contract, that is disannuled at death do us apart. The blood contract of Christ, as far as its conditions are concerned also has the, to death do us apart, where Paul says God will be all in all.

After death, the relationship with Jesus continues and is consecrated, which is the context of the wedding supper of the Lamb of God at the end of time when the books are opened, but the obligations to the conditions of the blood contract are deemed as either having been fully discharged or not discharged. Either the person is saved or condemned, either the person is blessed or cursed forever.

Light of the East said:
And a covenant is also a conditional agreement, but the difference is that in a contract, as I showed you by my example of buying my house (to which you gave no answer), in a contract, you have no personal interest in the other person. It is business. A covenant is the giving of one person to another. It is intimate.

In a contract, you have a personally vested interest and without it, you assume interest without a vested interest, which is absent of consequences of discharging your obligations. God pins you down in his contract that has many legal ramafacations.

You, can NOT claim to be married if you are not in a legal union, that is the contract.

Light of the East said:
I'm sorry, but this is the language of Calvinism.

I disagree with your opinion.

Light of the East said:
Again, this is exactly how Calvinists write about the covenant. Everything I have read which is Orthodox and refers to our salvation speaks of the healing of our natures, not the payment of some legal fine.

The Semitic language for sin offerring from its very inception is understood as a down payment. Jewish families paid for sheep, goats and bulls to the Church to offer their good will, through the blood contract. Again vested interest to be part of the contract of God. If it was a matter of ONLY a relationship, then they would stay at home and pocket their life savings and not bother treating it as an obligation, in order to comply with the conditions of the contract.

Light of the East said:
You really don't "hear" yourself speaking. I've been there and done that, in terms of believing what you are preaching. It is Calvinism. You can claim it is Orthodoxy, but when I read the Early Fathers speaking of the Eucharist as the "Medicine of Immortality," I know they are not talking about some legal contract with God. They are speaking of healing a broken nature and our relationship being healed.

The question is, if it costed God his only begotten Son, what makes you think that it is free for all, without the burden of cost to you or others?

Jesus said....

29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundred fold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

The context was to who then can be saved?

When you enter a contract with God it will cost you as it costed Him dearly. You better believe it!

Light of the East · Jun 22, 2017

The Times said:
29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundred fold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

everlasting

αἰώνιος aiōnios

Doesn't mean everlasting. Atrocious translation.

PeaceB · Jun 22, 2017

Albion said:
not that the only way to get rid of sin (or inclinations) is for him to run each of us through some sort of celestial car wash.

I never said that it is the only way, although purgatory is the only concrete way that I know of.

In concrete terms, what is your alternative? Am I safe to assume that by "It's all in God's hands" you mean "I do not know how God removes man's imperfections that remain at death"?

You have told us that "they are resolved" and that "It's all in God's hands", and I would certainly agree with these statements. But beyond this you have not told us anything concrete. If you do not know or do not venture to put forth a concrete alternative that is perfectly fine by me, of course.

Besides the fact that you do not believe the doctrine is taught in Scripture, is your objection to 1) the idea that man has imperfections that need to be removed or 2) to the idea that the method of removing these imperfections is referred to as a "cleansing fire" or otherwise might otherwise be unpleasant?

From the standpoint of one who believes the false doctrine of penal substitution, I can understand why one would object to purgatory insofar as it is understood as punishment or satisfaction for sins.

The Times · Jun 22, 2017

Light of the East said:
everlasting

αἰώνιος aiōnios

Doesn't mean everlasting. Atrocious translation.

A contract is not everlasting work in progress, rather when you read everlasting, see to what is everlasting referring to in context i.e life, inheritance etc.

Let us look at the link you faithfully provided....

an everlasting king:
thy name is from everlasting.

I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Who is them?

everlasting joy shall be unto them.

Who is them?

and everlasting joy shall be upon their head:

Who is them?

everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away

Who is them?

broken the everlasting covenant.

How could everlasting be broken?

Everlasting means to stand, regardless of the actions of those who break it.

Them are the saved who have not broken what stood legally as a contract.

You can break an everlasting contract, but you cannot break an everlasting relationship which exists to them who have fully discharged their obligations to the blood contract.

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (Hebrews 12:4)

Death is the annullment of the everlasting contract, because it no longer applies, resulting in blood in blood out, hence judgement awaits before the righteous Judge.

I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Once flesh is removed from the equation of everlasting covenant, then flesh no longer is being tested. All covenants from Genesis onwards are to the flesh. Once flesh is no more, then covenants have run their course and there is no continuing work in progress like purgatory.

9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. (Romans 8:9-11)

Body is subject to death because of sin and so the body is subject to covenants and once the earthly body is dissolved, then sin cannot come into the world through the body and as a result the covenants no longer apply to the realm of the dead.

Purgatory in the afterlife is covenant by post mortem. This teaching is preposterous.

Albion · Jun 22, 2017

PeaceB said:
You have told us that "they are resolved" and that "It's all in God's hands", and I would certainly agree with these statements. But beyond this you have not told us anything concrete.

I have given answers to your questions.

And if you want me to tell you something more concrete about a place or state of being that does not exist...you'll have to expect to be given a list of teachings about Purgatory that are rejected as untrue.

Besides the fact that you do not believe the doctrine is taught in Scripture, is your objection to 1) the idea that man has imperfections that need to be removed

No, just that there is no reason to think that Purgatory is the means by which that is done.

or 2) to the idea that the method of removing these imperfections is referred to as a "cleansing fire" or otherwise might otherwise be unpleasant?

Well, that merely scratches the surface of what the Catholic Church attributes to Purgatory.

From the standpoint of one who believes the false doctrine of penal substitution, I can understand why one would object to purgatory insofar as it is understood as punishment or satisfaction for sins.

I'm surprised to learn that you believe in the doctrine of penal substitution, but it doesn't affect the truth or falsity of Purgatory one way or the other.

Halbhh · Jun 22, 2017

fide said:
Yes, purgatory is real. Purgatory deals with impurities in the soul that co-exist, in this life, with the Spirit given to believers. Because nothing impure can enter the presence of God, such impurities must be eliminated in the soul of a person destined to heaven. Such impurities can be eliminated on this earth - that is possible - if there is time, and if the person is faithful with the graces God gives, in mortal life. Many, many people - it appears to me - are not serious about pursuing holiness with complete zeal and fidelity, but are happy to love the things of this world and to bask in the promises of God at the same time. Such souls will probably need purgatory to finish their sanctification that was begun but not completed on earth.

For example, from Scripture, listen to this passage and my commentary. If you already have an interpretation that allows you to reject a Catholic understanding, I ask you to set your interpretation aside just for a while, to allow you think of this as a Catholic does. Then, you will be able to understand at least this part of the Catholic Faith. You are still free to reject it, of course, if you want to remain where you are:

1Co 3:1 But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh.

OK. Paul is addressing men who have the Spirit - they are believers - but they remain "of the flesh." There is a mixture in them, they have mixed loves. There is a saving love for God and the things of God, yet at the same time there is within them the loves of this world - the loves of the "flesh." They are "babes", not yet "mature" - not yet finished, in the work of purification that the Spirit would work in them. That purification must be completed before they can enter the presence of God!

That purification takes time, and effort on the part of the Christian. They have to be "ready" to grow in Christ, and when "ready," they must partake of the spiritual food - the "solid food" - that will nurture them toward maturity.

...........

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

They have heard and believed the Gospel preached by Paul, and are beginning to live the Christian life. The living of life in this world is the work of "building" that Paul refers to. These men, these "babes", have a good and true foundation - they received the true Gospel from Paul - but now they must build upon it, in the living of their lives, in the living of Faith, in the living of Christian love. In other words, Paul is telling them that they have the foundation for their lives, now "take care how [you] build upon it."

The building of a man's life reflects the loves in his heart. The way a man uses his time, his money, his attention - what he does and why he does it - reflect the loves and desires of his heart. Now, what are the possibilities? What are examples of the ways that a Christian can "build his life" upon the foundation set by the Gospel?

1Co 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--

The foundation for the Christian is holy! The foundation is Christ! Christ ought to be the foundation of our lives! Christ ought to be the reason for our being, the goal of our works, the explanation for the things we do and the things we refuse to do! If anyone asks a Christian "Why?" - "Why did you do that, why did you go there, why don't you want to do this?" - the answer ought to be, finally and ultimately, "Jesus! He is the reason why, for me!"

But is Jesus the only reason, for every Christian, at all times? Hardly. Christ deserves only "Gold" from a Christian - only wholehearted love for God and the things of God. All that a Christian desires should be desired because of God, and in God, and leading to the glory of God - and not desired because of "the flesh", because it "feels good", or looks good to oneself or to other men, or because it will impress this one or that one - carnal ambition, carnal satisfaction, carnal pleasures, and so on. Such desires and loves are impure, and look like choices of something less than gold that God deserves - like silver, or precious stones, or ever worse - wood, hay or straw.

But Judgment Day will disclose it all:

1Co 3:13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This "purgation", this picture of the burning away of the unworthy building materials is a way of describing the burning away of the spiritual impurities that chose the unworthy "building materials" in the first place. If a Christian's life is built with unworthy mixtures of loves, desires, ambitions that he has held onto through his life - seeking a compromise with the world, with the flesh - if he is not willing to cast all aside for the sake of Christ - then this purgation (called "purgatory") is necessary for him. His soul - which includes his loves and desires, impure and pure - will be cleansed by the "fire" to make the believer's soul wholly pure for the presence of God. He "will be saved", because he kept the holy love of the Spirit in him - BUT - "he will suffer loss... only as through fire" because he also kept what he should have transformed and purified in his mortal life: loves of the things of this world "in the flesh" and not "in Christ and because of Christ."

Christ died not merely to make "babes" but to gather mature men and women into the Kingdom. We are all called to holiness. This is what Paul refers to:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children,...

(The word "perfect" here means spiritually mature in Christ.) If we fail to "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect", as Jesus commands, then we need purgatory.

Thank you for connecting pieces together! This is valuable to understand these verses better by connection, that they are not merely laudable goals, a worthy target only, but more, the reality of our path He sets for us.

PeaceB · Jun 22, 2017

Albion said:
I have given answers to your questions.

You most certainly did, as vapid as they were.

And if you want me to tell you something more concrete about a place or state of being that does not exist...you'll have to expect to be given a list of teachings about Purgatory that are rejected as untrue.

That is not what I asked for, nor do I expect it. As you do not believe in purgatory, I asked you to explain what the alternative is. From what I understand, your answer is "they are resolved" and that "It's all in God's hands". I assume that you have no further information to provide than this.

No, just that there is no reason to think that Purgatory is the means by which that is done.

This is fine, but until you can provide an alternative other than "they are resolved" and that "It's all in God's hands" you should not expect anyone to take your objections very seriously (not that you care, of course).

Well, that merely scratches the surface of what the Catholic Church attributes to Purgatory.

Two people in this thread have asked you to provide your sources, and you have not yet provided any. Again, you should not expect anyone to take your assertions concerning what the Church teaches seriously if you not provide sources to back up your assertions when asked.

I'm surprised to learn that you believe in the doctrine of penal substitution, but it doesn't affect the truth or falsity of Purgatory one way or the other.

I do not, and that is why I called it the "false doctrine of penal substitution". It is late, so no worries.

And FWIW, if penal substitution were true, then it would seem to logically rule out purgatory. Perhaps this is the reason why people who hold penal substitution have such a hard time accepting purgatory. Some protestants who hold Christus Victor, for example, are much more receptive to the idea of purgatory.

Good night.

Albion · Jun 23, 2017

PeaceB said:
As you do not believe in purgatory, I asked you to explain what the alternative is.

Very well. The alternative is this: the wicked go to hell and the forgiven go to heaven. You know, nothing more or less than what the Bible explains repeatedly.

Alithis · Jun 23, 2017

We do have differing beliefs
I believe and agree with the bible.
On this count of the false doctrine of purgatory you do not.
You are preaching “another gospel“
I Do Not bid you peace about that.the scriptures forbid that.
I warn you to repent of it.

Alithis · Jun 23, 2017

Light of the East said:
Tell me then what you think happens to our imperfections and everything that is not like God when we die.

Who cares what I THINK.
Our minds are to be renewed to agree with God .not wander off making up fables after our own imaginations.
Always this ambiguity is present when the topic is debated.

Face the fact.
It's not true or scriptural.
Purgatory is a false doctrine.

Don't try to avoid the fact by asking even more ambiguous questions in attempt to mislead people even further.

fide · Jun 23, 2017

Albion said:
Very well. The alternative is this: the wicked go to hell and the forgiven go to heaven. You know, nothing more or less than what the Bible explains repeatedly.

You demonstrate the evidence that condemns sola scriptura: Scripture is rich, and profoundly deep, and beautiful and holy. But because it is divine - the words of God - it is rightly heard, believed and discerned ONLY in God Himself, that is, in and led by the Holy Spirit.

And that is why Jesus sent the Spirit to His witnesses whom He sent to preach and to teach: He sent His Spirit to His Church, to lead and guide us into all the truth.

Outside of His Church is some truth, yes, praise God! But understanding is mixed with error and with opinion - thus the many divisions and denominations. Jesus wants His own to hear and receive and live ALL that God has revealed to mankind, entrusted to His one Church.

If you want "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", you need to listen to His Church. She was and is given the Spirit, to guide her into all the truth - as Jesus promised.

PeaceB · Jun 23, 2017

Albion said:
Very well. The alternative is this: the wicked go to hell and the forgiven go to heaven. You know, nothing more or less than what the Bible explains repeatedly.

Yes, all Christians believe that.

But the question is, if purgatory does not occur, by what means does God remove mans evil inclinations and other imperfections such that he has the holiness necessary to enter heaven? You have no substantive answer, and that is perfectly fine.

You have no objection to the necessity that mans inclinations and other imperfections are removed before he enter heaven, and you have no substantive answer as to how this occurs, so it is reasonable to conclude that your rejection of the idea of purgatory, at least is part, is because in your mind the idea sounds too "Catholic" and you automatically have to reject anything that sounds "Catholic". But we knew this already.

Have a nice day.

PeaceB · Jun 23, 2017

Alithis said:
We do have differing beliefs
I believe and agree with the bible.
On this count of the false doctrine of purgatory you do not.
You are preaching “another gospel“
I Do Not bid you peace about that.the scriptures forbid that.
I warn you to repent of it.

No, your personal interpretation of Scripture is incorrect, and it is Protestants who teach a false gospel.

Peace be with you.

Alithis · Jun 23, 2017

PeaceB said:
No, your personal interpretation of Scripture is incorrect, and it is Protestants who teach a false gospel.

Peace be with you.

In what manner do I misinterpret a scripture that does not exist?
That's impossible lol.

your interpretation is zero. Because there is nothing in the bible to interpret on the topic.
Purgatory is not scriptural
And Not true.

Saying it is because you say it is does not make it so.

How about exercising a little honesty on the topic . that would be a rarity.

PeaceB · Jun 23, 2017

@Alithis

You misinterpret the Scriptures mentioned below:

Purgatory | Catholic Answers

"Purgatory Not in Scripture"

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

And if we probe your beliefs in general, we can find many other Scriptures that you misinterpret. For example, your interpretation of these verses is incorrect:

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the breadc]">[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesusd]">[d] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

. . .

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

. . .

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”d]">[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”e]">[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Peace be with you.

Alithis · Jun 23, 2017

PeaceB said:
@Alithis

You misinterpret the Scriptures mentioned below:

Purgatory | Catholic Answers

"Purgatory Not in Scripture"

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though 《snip》for blah blah purposes

Peace be with you.

Again..those were like saying purgatory is real because Paul doesn't say it's not.
In short..ridiculous.
I heard there are little 3 eyed men living in venus.it must be true because Paul didn't say it's not true..
I repeat in caps....REDICULOUS.

More ambiguous waffle that's amounts to ..
“It is so because we say it is so.“

Utter nonsense .

Albion · Jun 23, 2017

fide said:
You demonstrate the evidence that condemns sola scriptura: Scripture is rich, and profoundly deep, and beautiful and holy. But because it is divine - the words of God - it is rightly heard, believed and discerned ONLY in God Himself, that is, in and led by the Holy Spirit.

So far, there's nothing here, fide, that most believers in Scripture Alone and also believers in Sacred Tradition wouldn't agree with.

Outside of His Church is some truth, yes, praise God!

How did this idea of "outside his Church" get into the conversation? We're supposedly talking about "Purgatory."

PeaceB · Jun 23, 2017

Alithis said:
Again..those were like saying purgatory is real because Paul doesn't say it's not.
In short..ridiculous.
I heard there are little 3 eyed men living in venus.it must be true because Paul didn't say it's not true..
I repeat in caps....REDICULOUS.

More ambiguous waffle that's amounts to ..
“It is so because we say it is so.“

Utter nonsense .

No, your view is nonsensical.

fide · Jun 23, 2017

Albion said:
So far, there's nothing here, fide, that most believers in Scripture Alone and also believers in Sacred Tradition wouldn't agree with.

How did this idea of "outside his Church" get into the conversation? We're supposedly talking about "Purgatory."

Where did "outside of the Church" come from, in a discussion about purgatory? As soon as "discussion against purgatory" arises, "outside of the Church" has entered the conversation. And "outside of the Church" is introduced necessarily in the premise of the theology of sola scriptura.

Sola scriptura rejects the Spirit-led development of revelation - its organic growth - in the many mysteries that are introduced in Scripture but not explicitly developed therein. These mysteries Jesus was anticipating, predicting, for His Church, when He promised the guidance of the Spirit into ALL the truth:

Jn 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Jn 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Jn 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Scripture is TRUE - but it does not explicitly contain ALL the truth that Jesus intended for His Church. For this completeness of revelation, we need the wisdom of Him Himself IN us, leading and guiding us, into ALL the truth.

This is why Christians must believe in Christ, and trust Him completely - and therefore believe his Church, and trust the promised guidance of the Holy Spirit in His Church. If you do that, you will see purgatory very clearly "in Scripture." He will show it to you.

Albion · Jun 23, 2017

fide said:
Where did "outside of the Church" come from, in a discussion about purgatory? As soon as "discussion against purgatory" arises, "outside of the Church" has entered the conversation. And "outside of the Church" is introduced necessarily in the premise of the theology of sola scriptura.

Neither of those appears to be correct to say, sorry.

Is Purgatory real?

Well-Known Member

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Facilitator

Everything You say is Life to me

Well-Known Member

Facilitator

Disciple of Jesus .

Disciple of Jesus .

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Disciple of Jesus .

Well-Known Member

Disciple of Jesus .

Facilitator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Facilitator

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency