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Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?Made new in the resurrection? LIke because JESUS rose a christian can be made new you're saying?
Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?
Paul says behold, all things are made new. He also said that we died and are risen with Christ in heaven. Colossians 3
How does purgatory fit into that? Please use scripture, thank you.
Well the bible says everyone who makes it in heaven has a new body in heaven and sin and pain will not be present there ...i'm not sure who's disputing that.
Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?
We will be given a new body in heaven? Where does the bible say we will receive new bodies before the resurrection?
Scripture is undeniable truth. It's just that you used Scripture to shoot down and kill a straw man. You missed your target because you don't even know what your target is. Proclaiming that Scripture is an undeniable truth doesn't mean you magically hit your target. Figure out from actual official Catholic teaching what purgatory is and is not and try again. Or not. It's up to you.Yes because the scriptures are the undeniable truth.
Figure out what purgatory is and what it is not based on official Catholic teaching and then start looking for the Scripture to shoot it down. Otherwise your aim is off. Just sayin'.Your still dodging the question because you can't explain how purgatory doesn't contradict the verses I quoted. If I'm wrong and you know I am then please explain where I went wrong in my explanation.
Purgatory is where Catholics go when they leave this world. Protestants dont go there.Figure out what purgatory is and what it is not based on official Catholic teaching and then start looking for the Scripture to shoot it down. Otherwise your aim is off. Just sayin'.
How can we "deal with our sinful selves"?
Is Christ's sacrifice not enough to save us? Must we still somehow, ultimately save ourselves?
I'm not denying Christ's sacrifice. I'm also not denying our capacity to be sinful and bogged down by the world and evil. It's not about saving oneself, it's about working out the salvation promised to us, getting to root of our peculiar habits pr state of being which is sinful/sin.
Purgatory isn't about being saved, as far as I understand it. Those in purgatory know they will be saved and have been saved. It's about rooting out those desires for sin which have not been rooted out.
So if we receive new bodies upon death in heaven, what do you do with the passages of the bible that speak to the resurrection as having not happened yet? I'm thinking about 1 Cor 15Read the scripture. We are hidden with Christ in God. Where is God? In heaven, yes?
I guess if Purgatory plays even a small part in eventual salvation, then it is in fact necessary for salvation.
I find that to be absolutely contrary to Scripture, which, first of all speaks of no such place or "state", and also emphasizes that Christ's one time and finished sacrifice is sufficient to purge our sins, nothing else needed.
Do we need to work out our sins while we live on earth?
Why do we have to deal with our sinfulness since Christ's sacrifice is enough?
It's finished right?
Why do I need to try to be holy?
Shouldn't it just come regardless of my effort?
This absolute insistence does away with our responsibility and leaves us solely in the domain of Calvinism, in which we have no choice and must merely rely on God's arbitrary judgement.
I think this speaks to the difference of views between us. I do not formally accept purgatory as a doctrine but I see it as an idea suitable for explaining what is to be done with those who have not worked out their sins while alive. Who are still burdened.
The way you speak about it seems to me to diminish the struggle, to make our lives as we live them irrelevant to salvation. I don't believe that is the case given the numerous calls within the bible to live a holy life, to put aside sin.
St. Paul did not state that "we are holy without blemish and unreprovable before Him in the present tense." The ASV states "And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".
Notice the word "if" in the text. The word "if" indicates that the phrase that precedes it is a conditional phrase. That is, "to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him" is a conditional phrase. The condition on which our Lord will present you holy and blameless is if "ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".
The text says nothing about people being holy and blameless before God at a present point in time. If tomorrow you renounce God, become an atheist, and gleefully go out raping and killing people until your death, do you think that Jesus will "present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him"? No. Of course not. Our Lord will "present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him" at some future point in time after "ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".
That future point in time may be immediately upon your death, or after purgatory, should you end up in purgatory.
Again, there is nothing in Scripture that you are going to be able to produce here that refutes or is inconsistent with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Protestants have been attempting to do so for 500 years, and to no avail. What makes you think that post number #276 on Christian Forums will be the watershed moment that finally disproves the Catholic faith? Do you really think that you are going to be able to produce a verse from Scripture that disproves purgatory, when we have have thousands of intelligent priests, theologians, lay apologists among our ranks, who have already considered every verse of Scripture and argument that you will make a thousand times? Even if you come up with some novel argument that I have difficulty answering here, all I need to do is simply refer back to one of those thousands of people in the history of the Church, who has already considered your argument and has a powerful refutation of it.
You will debate on endlessly here, and you will never prove that Scripture contradicts the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. There are literally hundreds of pages from threads on this site where people have attempted to do so, and failed.
Colossians 1:22 does not state that "all sin is removed". Colossians 1:22 (ASV) is cited above. As for your question, that information has been provided numerous times on this forum. I suggest that you use the search feature, which is quite useful. You can also find the information at Catholic Answers, or at numerous other places on the internet, using Google.
Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?
Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?
Scripture is undeniable truth. It's just that you used Scripture to shoot down and kill a straw man. You missed your target because you don't even know what your target is. Proclaiming that Scripture is an undeniable truth doesn't mean you magically hit your target. Figure out from actual official Catholic teaching what purgatory is and is not and try again. Or not. It's up to you.
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