Is Presdient Bush A Racist?

[Doctrine1st]

You have yet to explain what you mean. How do they not maintain their integrity? You're playing dodgeball with the issue.

I think my previous remarks were right on target. Blacks who vary from the "oppressed victim mentality" are considered "Uncle Toms" and sellouts. That type thinking does more to keep blacks down than anything the white man could ever do.

No, you have not a clue what you are talking about.

I, my family, and my friends, don't share that opinion. To think that someone would poo poo people who are suggesting some kind of self determination just because both are of a certain party is just plain nuts. In fact in all my disscussions; some admire them, some have issue with them for the same reason as I, but certainly it has nothing to do with their positions which once again you continue to assume to understand just by association, when you have no clue.

One more time, or better yet, tell me their posistions on issues?

From comments from them I have heard they are pro Affirmative Action and pro women's right to choose. I have heard statements from Powell that sound like a strong national social responsibility stance. So where are you getting this generalization from?

What I mean by integrity; or lack of it, is their willingness participation in the deception that has brought us this quagmire in Iraq. This goes for them, and everyone else who made that talk show circuit reciting information that as not only credibility false, but readily debunked from the start. Powell called his participation in that a blot on his career.

 

[k]

Well, forgive me, Neverstop. Rice herself claimed she knew three of the girls and was friends with one of them. Sounds like your facts weren't any straighter than mine. And if losing her friend isn't 'feeling it' enough for you, then the emotional hyperbole is on your end. Just because her parents raised her to be overcomer instead of a victim hardly means she didn't feel what was going on. I suspect if the Klan had burned a cross on her lawn, you'd accuse her parents of closing the drapes.

Yeah...and Rice, the person who said, "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud" is a REAL CREDIBLE person!!

She was NINE...how many 14 year olds do people know who hang out w/ 9 year olds.....that's #1 taboo for teens.

Her parents did not raise her to simply overcome, but to sell out on every angle possible. When she was at Standford she earned a rep for being a good little soldier. To try to use the horrible church bombing as a way to ignore everything else is just detestable, IMAO.

 

[k]

And you know this how? Are legions of black folks approaching you and saying I have a victim mentality and those brothers and sisters are sellouts because they are sucessful.


I would like to know how people make these determinations about blacks?

From my experience, it's from people who know the least about racial issues.

 

[k]

seems to me that perception is key. folks that write scathing things about Ms Condoleeza Rice and Mr Colin Powell are in that sense no better than folks that burn crosses on the yards of families they don't like. they see something in these people that offends them at some level and the reaction is an emotion and physical one.

if it's thought that burning crosses and scathing commentary are not equal, just realize that the commentary is more subtle and insidious, just like the subtle, insidous modern day racism it's supposed to be fighting.

in other words, take care to not become the monster being fought.

Pointing out sell-outs is not a figurative eqivalent of burning crosses.

I'm betting as individuals Rice and Powell are probably very pleasant people. But, their actions betray all the sacrifices that came before them, just like Bush has stomped on all the sacrifices that came before him.

 

[k]

It's just a great big assumption. I myself ask this question because I have no idea where this idea comes from, it's as if someone says, "Black people have a victim mentality," and everyone believes it. Or it probably comes from the attitude that once a person mentions the existence of racism today, they are pretending to be a victim. I think that view is foolish, there is racism, that doesn't mean you are a victim for recognizing it.

It's the same reason rape victims are often blamed...it's MUCH easier to blame the victim than to take a cold hard look at the reality around us because if we do that...then we have to take action and that specific type of action would inherently require Sacrifice. That is the only word capable of putting more fear into Americans, other than WMD. (okay, yes I know it's an acronym. )

 

[k]

No, you have not a clue what you are talking about.

I, my family, and my friends, don't share that opinion. To think that someone would poo poo people who are suggesting some kind of self determination just because both are of a certain party is just plain nuts. In fact in all my disscussions; some admire them, some have issue with them for the same reason as I, but certainly it has nothing to do with their positions which once again you continue to assume to understand just by association, when you have no clue.

One more time, or better yet, tell me their posistions on issues?

From comments from them I have heard they are pro Affirmative Action and pro women's right to choose. I have heard statements from Powell that sound like a strong national social responsibility stance. So where are you getting this generalization from?

What I mean by integrity; or lack of it, is their willingness participation in the deception that has brought us this quagmire in Iraq. This goes for them, and everyone else who made that talk show circuit reciting information that as not only credibility false, but readily debunked from the start. Powell called his participation in that a blot on his career.

That last line stuck me.....Powell calls it a "blot." Wonder what the grieving family members call it when they have one less person at the Thanksgiving table this year.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

Pointing out sell-outs is not a figurative eqivalent of burning crosses.

is that "IMAO" or is a definitive statement being made that can be supported?

 

[k]

is that "IMAO" or is a definitive statement being made that can be supported?

It's a definitive statement otherwise I would have said, "IMAO."

 

[ballfan]

What I mean by integrity; or lack of it, is their willingness participation in the deception that has brought us this quagmire in Iraq. This goes for them, and everyone else who made that talk show circuit reciting information that as not only credibility false, but readily debunked from the start. Powell called his participation in that a blot on his career.

Now we're finally getting down to it. You disagree with something they did politically so to you that means they lack integrity and are sellouts. This is right where we started. Opinions of blacks cannot vary or be different without them becoming sellouts. You question their integrity but posted something above that is completely false. Does that mean you don't have integrity either?


"This goes for them, and everyone else who made that talk show circuit reciting information that as not only credibility false, but readily debunked from the start."

Thats simply not true. It may have proved out false later after the war but couldn't be debunked from the start. Too much intelligence pointed to Saddam having WMD. Even some people in Saddam's inner circle thought Iraq had at least some of these weapons. What you're doing is using 20/20 hindsight on opinions that before the war you had no idea on their correctness.

 

[Scribbler]

Yeah...and Rice, the person who said, "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud" is a REAL CREDIBLE person!!

She was NINE...how many 14 year olds do people know who hang out w/ 9 year olds.....that's #1 taboo for teens.

Her parents did not raise her to simply overcome, but to sell out on every angle possible. When she was at Standford she earned a rep for being a good little soldier. To try to use the horrible church bombing as a way to ignore everything else is just detestable, IMAO.

I guess your entire argument about Dr. Rice not 'feeling' what was happening in Birmingham thoughout her youth boils down to a 5-year difference in age. Gotcha.
As far as being a 'sellout', it seems to everyone on this board that means something different. Is it possible to get one definition? If being a sellout means so many different things to so many different people, it seems every black person in America falls under the umbrella eventually.
Heck, even Clinton used the 'Burning of Black Churches in the Arkansas of my youth' line to drum emotions to further his cause...until they discovered-whoops- there weren't any church burnings in the Arkansas of his youth!

So,...Using your arguments, is Clinton 'selling out' what Rice, et al. actually lived through?

So, finally, please,...somebody, anybody...
What do you mean by sellout?

 

[ballfan]

And you know this how? Are legions of black folks approaching you and saying I have a victim mentality and those brothers and sisters are sellouts because they are sucessful.


I would like to know how people make these determinations about blacks?

Its not like its exactly a secret. You haven't seen reports of black kids making good grades in school and being accused of trying to be white? To them being sucessful is selling out.

 

[SallyNow]

Its not like its exactly a secret. You haven't seen reports of black kids making good grades in school and being accused of trying to be white? To them being sucessful is selling out.

I see white kids who make good grades and are accused of being "uncool" and "nerdy" and "geeky" and "losers". It's kids picking up on garabage they hear and using it to bully others. Happens everywhere. Some schools, high-achieving kids are called "nerds"; in others, "sell-outs".

It's a sad statement on how deeply entrenched the disrespect towards learning and education - and educators- has become among many communities.

Or, it could just be a statement on the immaturity and cattiness that exists in most standard junior highs.

*shutters from memories of eye-liner and brand-name quizzes*

 

[ballfan]

I see white kids who make good grades and are accused of being "uncool" and "nerdy" and "geeky" and "losers". It's kids picking up on garabage they hear and using it to bully others. Happens everywhere. Some schools, high-achieving kids are called "nerds"; in others, "sell-outs".

It's a sad statement on how deeply entrenched the disrespect towards learning and education - and educators- has become among many communities.

Or, it could just be a statement on the immaturity and cattiness that exists in most standard junior highs.

*shutters from memories of eye-liner and brand-name quizzes*

I agree. You would hope for it to be the reverse but too often success equals selling out. And as you point out its not just a black problem as it crosses racial lines.

 

[Doctrine1st]

I see white kids who make good grades and are accused of being "uncool" and "nerdy" and "geeky" and "losers". It's kids picking up on garabage they hear and using it to bully others. Happens everywhere. Some schools, high-achieving kids are called "nerds"; in others, "sell-outs".

It's a sad statement on how deeply entrenched the disrespect towards learning and education - and educators- has become among many communities.

Or, it could just be a statement on the immaturity and cattiness that exists in most standard junior highs.

*shutters from memories of eye-liner and brand-name quizzes*

Don't let ballfan move the goalposts.

He was talking about both Condi and Powell being refered to in the black community as sellout because they are black, Republican, and he assumes he knows where they stand on issues.

Don't let him change the argument to a correlation fallacy.

 

[SallyNow]

Don't let ballfan move the goalposts.

He was talking about both Condi and Powell being refered to in the black community as sellout because they are black, Republican, and he assumes he knows where they stand on issues.

Don't let him change the argument to a correlation fallacy.

Well, let me try to put this back on track then:

Chantal Kreviazuk is a Canadian singer. She's wife to the lead singer of Our Lady Peace, Raine Maida. Both are active in many good social causes. For years Chantal spoke out against the way young women are so often portrayed as sexual objects rather than respectful people. Now, she's got an advertising deal with Garneir, a haircolour company. Is she a sellout, or just capitalizing on her success? My first thought was, "well, she's a sellout!" But then I thought about it. Will she use her new career as TV spokesperson to further the causes that she cares about, such as www.warchild.ca/ ? Well, then, she's not a sellout, she's just moved up on the Star-O-Meter.

I think a lot of times calls of "sell-out" are simply concerns over whether a celeb or politician has forgotten what reality is. Sometimes it's true, but often it's not.

As for Bush, well, none of this proves or disproves he's a racist. It could be argued that since Bush set up a diverse group, he is not, in any way, being racist. It could also be said that despite Bush trying for diversity, he only hired "sell-outs", and is therefore a racist. But isn't that a little racist in itself? That black or Hispanic or Asian people must conform to one stereotype, and they can't have diverse political or social views?

But then, the only ones I am hearing shouting "sell-out" are those who want Rice and other Black Republicans to not actually be Black, but instead be honourary caucasions...which is absurd.

It seems that, when someone does something contridictory to what is good for thier community, or which is generally distructive, they are called a "sell-out", but perhaps with some reality behind the accusation. However, it then seems that others interpret the call of "sell-out" to mean a racial issue, rather a political one, and then racism gets brought into the mix...and then it gets really messy and confusing...

 

[non-religious]

[Scribbler]I guess your entire argument about Dr. Rice not 'feeling' what was happening in Birmingham thoughout her youth boils down to a 5-year difference in age. Gotcha.
As far as being a 'sellout', it seems to everyone on this board that means something different. Is it possible to get one definition? If being a sellout means so many different things to so many different people, it seems every black person in America falls under the umbrella eventually.
Heck, even Clinton used the 'Burning of Black Churches in the Arkansas of my youth' line to drum emotions to further his cause...until they discovered-whoops- there weren't any church burnings in the Arkansas of his youth!

So,...Using your arguments, is Clinton 'selling out' what Rice, et al. actually lived through?

So, finally, please,...somebody, anybody...
What do you mean by sellout?

Good Post....

I'm not sure what sell out means in America, but over here it generally refers to black people becoming successful and adopting a so-called white persona (whatever that means). So for example if a famous black actor dates a white woman he's considered a sell out by a very small and ignorant section of the black community. In regards to Rice and Powell I see things differently. Sure they are Republican and have very close ties to Bush, but they are very successful people in their own right, regardless of what mistakes they have made. They have achieved great things and the fact that they happen to be black ordinarily wouldn't be an issue, but this is America and race always seems to be an issue. I'm sure the majority of black families in your country want there children to be successful, to grow up and contribute toward society. If some folk are suggesting that black high achieving pupils are "selling out" becos they get good grades and are very ambitious, then they are incredibly ignorant.
This term "sell out" is used by pathetic people who are perhaps jealous of the achievements and goals of others (of the same race) and used merely as a smokescreen to hide their own limited ambition and success....

 

[SummerMadness]

Quite simply put, blacks do not see a person as a sell-out for being successful, I don't know where that idea came from. "I read newspapers and their scores are lower" doesn't count as being in the know either.

 

[praying]

Its not like its exactly a secret. You haven't seen reports of black kids making good grades in school and being accused of trying to be white? To them being sucessful is selling out.

If that is your judgement on why an adult might think whatever about condi Rice and Colin Powell then I have to say that is way off base.

You are correlating what kids do in school to what adults think.

That still does not address the victim mentality issue.


And yes what yuo descibe is an issue for some kids in the African American experience.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

It's a definitive statement otherwise I would have said, "IMAO."

with no support (and the support part of the answer skipped) it's duly noted as a definitively stated opinion.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

where do kids learn to call successful kids either 'nerd' if they're white or 'sell-out' if black?

from other kids? where do the other kids learn it?

from teachers? doubtful, kinda goes against the passion to teach we hope the teachers have

from adults (either real ones or in the media)? that sounds about right.

isn't that how racism is passed along? taught to the kids by the adults?

calling Rice and Powell "sell-outs" is just another form of racism.